Can we do a poll? Do the Leafs have the right balance?

[darrylsittler27]

It is not.


1. None of those players were in their primes.
2. Toronto has Matthews, Tavares, Marner, and Rielly, plus more depth.


The team doesn't need to add anything to be highly competitive in the playoffs.


If teams are going to target our stars, "tough" guys will do absolutely nothing to stop it.

1) Yes they were, my point is Pitts given the age of their players is not comparable to us right now.
2) Teams have and are targeting our stars. Weber crushed Tavares, no pushback. Bad for morale and yes, certain players are a deterrent while doing some of the things stars don't. Finish checks, grind defenders,go in corners and make mayhem in front of the net.

3) " This team is soft as butter." Don Cherry. I agree with him and think we can't afford all this flash offense anyway.

4) The playoffs is a different animal and the reason we lost twice in the first round wasn't a lack of offense.
5) Once Hyman and Dermott get back a trade may be inevitable anyway
6) Korshkov,Engvall and Bracco still to come and are cheap for now.

 

[Polaris1010]

Here if I am any coach vs Leafs...

"Take the short route to the puck carrier and arrive in ill humour".

The Leafs never did beat Freddy the fog teams.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

1) Yes they were, my point is Pitts given the age of their players is not comparable to us right now.
2) Teams have and are targeting our stars. Weber crushed Tavares, no pushback. Bad for morale and yes, certain players are a deterrent while doing some of the things stars don't. Finish checks, grind defenders,go in corners and make mayhem in front of the net.

3) " This team is soft as butter." Don Cherry. I agree with him and think we can't afford all this flash offense anyway.

4) The playoffs is a different animal and the reason we lost twice in the first round wasn't a lack of offense.
5) Once Hyman and Dermott get back a trade may be inevitable anyway
6) Korshkov,Engvall and Bracco still to come and are cheap for now.

We literally lost because of lack of offense lol.

Our top-6 was significantly out-produced by their top-line of Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak. Their PP was beastly as well.

 

[Nineteen67]

Anyone watched Habs vs Blues last night? Wondering why none of our top players are playing with that much intensity..Max Domi was not just flying but he literally dove(and then sort of fell into the boards) to push the puck into an empty net. He doesnt need to do that **** at all since it's very early in the season yet every shift you see him just go go go(reminds me of how Moore is for us..every shift he's so involved and badly wants the puck). Quite a few guys(including Gallagher) playing with so much passion and all i see for us is JT, Willy and Mitch mostly just floating around, weak shots at the net, constant turnovers, afraid of getting hit and so on. The point of this? Yes it's definitely balance thing. It's actually sad that even Montreal could match us because they don't really have top level talent that we do.

Even though some like to pretend we all know what separates winners from the rest of the pack..

 

[Nineteen67]

It is not.


1. None of those players were in their primes.
2. Toronto has Matthews, Tavares, Marner, and Rielly, plus more depth.


The team doesn't need to add anything to be highly competitive in the playoffs.


If teams are going to target our stars, "tough" guys will do absolutely nothing to stop it.

Do you only watch NCAA or that European garbage they call hockey?

 

[Dekes For Days]

1) Yes they were, my point is Pitts given the age of their players is not comparable to us right now.

All of those players you mentioned are currently 32-33, which means that no, statistically, they were 100% not in their primes when they won. Meanwhile, the Leafs do have most of their core about to entire their primes. The Leafs are currently better built than the Pittsburgh team that won the cup.

2) Teams have and are targeting our stars.

This is ridiculous and unsubstantiated. Of course stars will get hit, but there is absolutely zero proof that our stars are being "targeted" or hit any more than other team's stars.

Bad for morale and yes, certain players are a deterrent while doing some of the things stars don't. Finish checks, grind defenders,go in corners and make mayhem in front of the net.

There is absolutely zero proof that having certain players on your team or playing a certain style deters big/dangerous hits, and there is absolutely zero evidence that the team has taken any hit in morale. If anything, playing that style only encourages dangerous hits. This is you just assuming what you want to be true with nothing to back it up.

3) " This team is soft as butter." Don Cherry.

Don Cherry is a senile old fool who doesn't understand the game anymore.

I agree with him and think we can't afford all this flash offense anyway.

Except we literally are affording it.

4) The playoffs is a different animal and the reason we lost twice in the first round wasn't a lack of offense.

On the list of reasons why the Leafs lost in any of their series, "toughness" doesn't even come close to the top 10. It has literally had no impact on our playoff success.

5) Once Hyman and Dermott get back a trade may be inevitable anyway

Leafs do not need to make any trades when they come back.

6) Korshkov,Engvall and Bracco still to come and are cheap for now.

None of those players are currently ready. Rushing them because of made-up problems would be stupid.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Do you only watch NCAA or that European garbage they call hockey?

Nope, I watch the NHL.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

My 2 cents worth. Both Dubas and Babcock want to win. Both are making the most of what is available to them. The problem I feel is: Dubas is quite able but young, and probably should be the one working as a team. Find out if that is the player the coach wants to fill his team with. Lost in all the moves made this off season, are crucial components to complete our roster. Like how is it top teams have 3 two way centers leading their team, and we have none.

 

[Leafidelity]

People never think the mix is right until it is. And then that becomes the mix people start to chase.

The Leafs could win a cup, and you'd still have people calling for more toughness the next season. It has very little to do with results, its more so a certain kind of hockey they prefer to watch.

 

[deletethis]

My 2 cents worth. Both Dubas and Babcock want to win. Both are making the most of what is available to them. The problem I feel is: Dubas is quite able but young, and probably should be the one working as a team. Find out if that is the player the coach wants to fill his team with. Lost in all the moves made this off season, are crucial components to complete our roster. Like how is it top teams have 3 two way centers leading their team, and we have none.

I don't for a second believe that either one of Babcock and Dubas don't care about winning. I however think there has been a bit of staredown by both sides over the talent and its use. Also they both strike me as wanting to win "their way" not someone else's way. In Babcock's case, he wants to win playing a certain kind of hockey ignoring certain elements that still play parts in pro hockey especially playoff hockey. And in Dubas' case, I believe he wants to win but only while being recognized as innovative/clever while tipping his hat to the hollow trendy values of modernity.

 

[sparxx87]

People never think the mix is right until it is. And then that becomes the mix people start to chase.

The Leafs could win a cup, and you'd still have people calling for more toughness the next season. It has very little to do with results, its more so a certain kind of hockey they prefer to watch.

You’re right and I don’t think it’s impossible.. but do you ever recall a team with almost no sandpaper winning?

I don’t.

It’d be cool to win with a new model but don’t you think it might make sense to go with the proven one when you’ve got that type of talent at the top of your roster?

I do.

 

[sparxx87]

I don't for a second believe that either one of Babcock and Dubas don't care about winning. I however think there has been a bit of staredown by both sides over the talent and its use. Also they both strike me as wanting to win "their way" not someone else's way. In Babcock's case, he wants to win playing a certain kind of hockey ignoring certain elements that still play parts in pro hockey especially playoff hockey. And in Dubas' case, I believe he wants to win but only while being recognized as innovative/clever while tipping his hat to the hollow trendy values of modernity.

best post of the thread!

 

[Leafidelity]

You’re right and I don’t think it’s impossible.. but do you ever recall a team with almost no sandpaper winning?

I don’t.

It’d be cool to win with a new model but don’t you think it might make sense to go with the proven one when you’ve got that type of talent at the top of your roster?

I do.

I don't think we can answer that 7 games into the first season of trying the new model. We have decades of reference for the old one.

 

[darrylsittler27]

All of those players you mentioned are currently 32-33, which means that no, statistically, they were 100% not in their primes when they won. Meanwhile, the Leafs do have most of their core about to entire their primes. The Leafs are currently better built than the Pittsburgh team that won the cup.


This is ridiculous and unsubstantiated. Of course stars will get hit, but there is absolutely zero proof that our stars are being "targeted" or hit any more than other team's stars.


There is absolutely zero proof that having certain players on your team or playing a certain style deters big/dangerous hits, and there is absolutely zero evidence that the team has taken any hit in morale. If anything, playing that style only encourages dangerous hits. This is you just assuming what you want to be true with nothing to back it up.


Don Cherry is a senile old fool who doesn't understand the game anymore.


Except we literally are affording it.


On the list of reasons why the Leafs lost in any of their series, "toughness" doesn't even come close to the top 10. It has literally had no impact on our playoff success.


Leafs do not need to make any trades when they come back.


None of those players are currently ready. Rushing them because of made-up problems would be stupid.[/QUO

 

[darrylsittler27]

All of those players you mentioned are currently 32-33, which means that no, statistically, they were 100% not in their primes when they won. Meanwhile, the Leafs do have most of their core about to entire their primes. The Leafs are currently better built than the Pittsburgh team that won the cup.


This is ridiculous and unsubstantiated. Of course stars will get hit, but there is absolutely zero proof that our stars are being "targeted" or hit any more than other team's stars.

On Pitts. all their players were fully grown men last cup. So, I'm saying Mathews and Marner are not peaked yet.If our big four were all 27 right now, we would be scary.You have misread what I'm saying. Give almost any team Crosby,Malkin,Kessel,Letang(at that age) and great goaltending and volia you have a cup.But that isn't a formula you can follow. The current trend is Washington has a good team for years added Wilson and Pelly Smith. St Louis has a lot of grit,character and fully grown men. So I discount Pitts. and say the current trend is not what you claim.


There is absolutely zero proof that having certain players on your team or playing a certain style deters big/dangerous hits, and there is absolutely zero evidence that the team has taken any hit in morale. If anything, playing that style only encourages dangerous hits. This is you just assuming what you want to be true with nothing to back it up.


Don Cherry is a senile old fool who doesn't understand the game anymore.


Except we literally are affording it.


On the list of reasons why the Leafs lost in any of their series, "toughness" doesn't even come close to the top 10. It has literally had no impact on our playoff success.


Leafs do not need to make any trades when they come back.


None of those players are currently ready. Rushing them because of made-up problems would be stupid.

The statement such as there is zero proof is false. You simply take the opposite position of anything I say to feel smart. Your arguments are an opinion for which you can give little to no proof. I also think we are getting off track.

I never said rush Korshkov,Engvall or Bracco but 2 or more of them will be ready by next season. We have overload on the wings. Hitting,going in the corners, grinding down defenseman(I.e Chara), making mayhem in front of the net fearlessly are all part of hockey and the moreso in the playoffs such as the need for dirty goals.

I think this is the best team offensively the Leafs have ever had. I noticed a turn in the tide in the Montreal game after Weber hit Tavares.

What I see is we have an abundance of what other GM's will need and we need some cap space at some point to fix our weaknesses.I think we have some depth issues elsewhere that need to be fixed for a deep playoff run.

Say what you want about Don Cherry, he has been around a long time, got rich at it and is still there. More than you can say.

Dubas is fixated and is a cult figure. That is a whole separate disorder. If we lose again first round, everyone will say fire Babcock and they may be right. But I say if we lose first round, Dubas deserves to be looked at as well.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The statement such as there is zero proof is false.

What is the proof then?

I never said rush Korshkov,Engvall or Bracco but 2 or more of them will be ready by next season.

We don't know that, and next season is next season. Let's focus on this season, where the Leafs are a top contender.

Hitting,going in the corners, grinding down defenseman(I.e Chara), making mayhem in front of the net fearlessly are all part of hockey and the moreso in the playoffs such as the need for dirty goals.

And this is all stuff that our players can and have done, and will continue to do.

I noticed a turn in the tide in the Montreal game after Weber hit Tavares.

The tide turned when Kapanen made a stupid play and handed them a goal, and then they got another fluke goal, putting them back in the game. It had nothing to do with Tavares being hit.

What I see is we have an abundance of what other GM's will need and we need some cap space at some point to fix our weaknesses.

We don't need cap space. This is the team, they fit in the cap, and they are top contenders.

I think we have some depth issues elsewhere that need to be fixed for a deep playoff run.

We literally have a deeper team than almost all in the league. This idea that other teams are perfect at every position and have no relative weaknesses is 100% false.

Say what you want about Don Cherry, he has been around a long time, got rich at it and is still there.

He's there because he drives viewership, and he's nostalgic to Canadians. He is not there because he has amazing insight into the current game of hockey. He still lives 30 years in the past.

But I say if we lose first round, Dubas deserves to be looked at as well.

Dubas has done an amazing job in a very little amount of time. His job is safe, as it should be.

 

[Nineteen67]

Nope, I watch the NHL.

Interesting. We get a different NHL down here in Florida and it’s nothing like what you watch or want us to watch. Thankfully.

 

[Twowingcantfly]

I don't for a second believe that either one of Babcock and Dubas don't care about winning. I however think there has been a bit of staredown by both sides over the talent and its use. Also they both strike me as wanting to win "their way" not someone else's way. In Babcock's case, he wants to win playing a certain kind of hockey ignoring certain elements that still play parts in pro hockey especially playoff hockey. And in Dubas' case, I believe he wants to win but only while being recognized as innovative/clever while tipping his hat to the hollow trendy values of modernity.

Kinda what I was grasping at. Well put..

 

[MarnerElite]

Even though some like to pretend we all know what separates winners from the rest of the pack..

I've been saying Moore instead of Kappy since the beginning of season. Kappy is very obvious with what he does(same shit like Willy..skate in and then turn back..try to make a weak pass to no one and lose the puck easily)..What i like about Moore aside from him being such a work horse is that he actually has decent hockey iq as well. If there is a guy near by to feed the puck to he will find him much easier than Kappy or Hyman types..We basically have a Hyman type player who can also make plays(and probably score just as much if not more).

What i find hilarious about this place is that some are saying how everyone wanted this(not true..very small number of people did until recently when it became too obvious) and how Babcock is so bad for not wanting what fans want..lmao. As if Babcock didn't know this or something. First thing he said about Moore was(and this was way back during training camp) was how impressive he was in the way he plays(basically similar to Hyman). Kappy was just given time on the first line since he has more games in the NHL, more polished and all so he can be trusted with more minutes. It became quite obvious as time went on that Moore was going to pass most of these other players as he just has more tools. Hilarious shit either way. Some folks need to get their lives in order instead of talk about shit like what Babcock needs to do(when you get anywhere near what he has accomplished maybe you can talk then). It's mostly little kids with nothing better to do but still.

 

[darrylsittler27]

What is the proof then?


We don't know that, and next season is next season. Let's focus on this season, where the Leafs are a top contender.


And this is all stuff that our players can and have done, and will continue to do.


The tide turned when Kapanen made a stupid play and handed them a goal, and then they got another fluke goal, putting them back in the game. It had nothing to do with Tavares being hit.


We don't need cap space. This is the team, they fit in the cap, and they are top contenders.


We literally have a deeper team than almost all in the league. This idea that other teams are perfect at every position and have no relative weaknesses is 100% false.


He's there because he drives viewership, and he's nostalgic to Canadians. He is not there because he has amazing insight into the current game of hockey. He still lives 30 years in the past.


Dubas has done an amazing job in a very little amount of time. His job is safe, as it should be.

Dubas has done an amazing job of nothing yet. You ask me for proof, yet offer none. The current last 2 Stanley cup winners had tough teams..period. The style of team we have, in my opinion will not lead to a deep run. We have an abundance of offense which can be parlayed into other assets. We will need to add for a run.

Im not running all over the place with this. I wanted the opinion of all Leaf fans on whether we have right balance for a deep playoff run. Don't be obtuse, You know what I mean.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas has done an amazing job of nothing yet.

He has done an amazing job at pretty much everything in a short amount of time. Among other things...

In one year, Dubas has:

-Signed Tavares, the best UFA in at least a decade, to a fair contract (2m less/year than he was offered), launching the team into legit contender status.
-Traded all negative value/under-performing players off of the team.
-Expertly used cash resources/maneuvered a cap situation by taking on Clarkson.
-Signed useful depth at league-minimum prices.
-Signed multiple promising European prospects.
-Drafted multiple prospects that look like complete steals (even trading down and getting one of them - Sandin).
-Had his Marlies win the Division, Calder Cup, and make the conference finals the next year (including 4 series sweeps in those 2 years).
-Re-signed highly regarded Marlies coach to an extension.
-Acquired a 2/3 defender in Muzzin for 2 years for a good price, for a team that everybody said needed defense.
-Acquired a 1/2 defender in Barrie for a good price, for a team that everybody said needed defense.
-Replaced an aging center (who was pushed down the depth chart and wasn't helping in the post-season) for a younger, cheaper alternative before Kadri's decline (showing team > emotion).
-Re-signed Kapanen, Johnson, and Kerfoot to good-great value contracts.
-Re-signed Matthews, the (era-adjusted) 5th best ES producing ELC forward in the entire cap era (who is also a generational goal-scorer, and one of the best PP players) to a good contract.
-Re-signed Marner, the (era-adjusted) 14th best ES producing ELC forward in the entire cap era (who is also a generational PP player) to a fair contract, despite the difficult agent/camp.
-Re-signed Nylander to a fair contract relative to his comparables, despite the difficult agent/camp.
-Remained extremely professional, patient, and level-headed throughout the process.
-Dealt with media expertly, and helped shield his players from their wrath.

Dubas is safe, as he should be.

You ask me for proof, yet offer none.

The burden of proof is not on me. You come here and claim this team is weak, yet offer no proof. You come here and claim that the team cannot win like this, yet offer no proof. You make all these claims, offer no proof, and then demand proof from me, while the Leafs keep on winning and doing well.

My proof is that we have been an elite team for multiple years.
My proof is that teams of all types with all styles have consistently gone deep and won the cup.
My proof is that we have been highly competitive in all of our playoff series, despite being extremely young and inexperienced and underdogs in all of them, and were actually the better team last year, despite significant injuries, suspensions, etc. Leafs lost to the Bruins skill on the PP.
My proof is that toughness has not been a factor in any of our playoff series, despite twice playing a team that most consider the toughest in the league.
Etc.

The current last 2 Stanley cup winners had tough teams..period.

They did not. Period.

And even if they did, we have a much bigger history to see that teams of all types have gone on to be successful and even win. What matters is playing to your strengths, not what your strengths are. Teams that chase the makeup of recent winners are teams that consistently lose.

The style of team we have, in my opinion will not lead to a deep run.

And this is supported by absolutely nothing.

We will need to add for a run.

We will not.

whether we have right balance for a deep playoff run.

We do.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Last night 4 out of 5 Cdn teams failed to sell out and we all know about Ottawa's issues. So much for the game is better now.

 

[darrylsittler27]

He has done an amazing job at pretty much everything in a short amount of time. Among other things...

Dubas is safe, as he should be.

The burden of proof is not on me. You come here and claim this team is weak, yet offer no proof. You come here and claim that the team cannot win like this, yet offer no proof. You make all these claims, offer no proof, and then demand proof from me, while the Leafs keep on winning and doing well.

My proof is that we have been an elite team for multiple years.
My proof is that teams of all types with all styles have consistently gone deep and won the cup.
My proof is that we have been highly competitive in all of our playoff series, despite being extremely young and inexperienced and underdogs in all of them, and were actually the better team last year, despite significant injuries, suspensions, etc. Leafs lost to the Bruins skill on the PP.
My proof is that toughness has not been a factor in any of our playoff series, despite twice playing a team that most consider the toughest in the league.
Etc.


They did not. Period.

And even if they did, we have a much bigger history to see that teams of all types have gone on to be successful and even win. What matters is playing to your strengths, not what your strengths are. Teams that chase the makeup of recent winners are teams that consistently lose.


And this is supported by absolutely nothing.


We will not.


We do.

I came here to get the opinion of all Leaf fans not just your blinded vision. You want proof, we lost the first 2 rounds. The debate is what do we need to fix that. You say nothing. I say other. I think we need a physical top 9 winger and may need a vet Dman before TD. Your arguments haven't swayed my opinion in the least. The job of building a cup winner is not done yet. Until it is the debate will rage eternal. My opinion is but one. My interest was in what all of Leaf fans see.

P.S
I think this team has more to give. Untapped potential and want to know what options Leaf fans see.We need more than just Hyman and I'm not sold on Barrie yet.

 

[Menzinger]

We literally lost because of lack of offense lol.

Our top-6 was significantly out-produced by their top-line of Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak. Their PP was beastly as well.

Boston won off theur red hot pp.

I don't understand why this myth of the Bruins grinding out a win at 5v5 came from... the Leafs matched the Bruins at even strength, their pk just had no answer to the Bergeron unit

Edit typo

 

[Dekes For Days]

I came here to get the opinion of all Leaf fans not just your blinded vision.

You came here to solidify an incorrect stance in your mind, based on the knee-jerk reactions and uninformed opinions of the kids that populate these boards instead of actual evidence.

You want proof, we lost the first 2 rounds.

That is not proof of anything. We have lost to the 1st, 3rd and 4th best teams in the league over the last 3 years, been highly competitive in all of the series, and been the better ES team in at least one of them, despite being the underdog every time and facing considerable barriers like suspensions and injuries. This is a level of opponent that most teams of our quality face in the conference finals, if not later.

Lots of teams lose in the playoffs. This doesn't mean the entire makeup of their team is wrong.

Teams that make knee-jerk reactions to losing in the playoffs, especially without the context of those situations, are the ones that deteriorate into irrelevance.

The debate is what do we need to fix that.

Keep improving the quality of the team and giving yourself chances, ideally to get home ice advantage, which is what Dubas has done.

Beyond switching divisions, there is nothing else that will help.

I think we need a physical top 9 winger

We literally don't have room for the wingers we already have.

Your arguments haven't swayed my opinion in the least.

Because you don't want to be swayed. You don't want proof. You want to hear people agree with you, regardless of how far detached from reality it is.