Can we do a poll? Do the Leafs have the right balance?

[Dekes For Days]

Who do we have that embodies toughness outside Muzzin? Goat is part time tough apparently.

Toughness is not throwing big hits.

 

[thewave]

Toughness is not throwing big hits.

Well, you can chop up the definition many ways. I am watching guys avoiding contact and letting other teams get the puck to avoid taking a hit. I am seeing timid players moving the puck far to quickly for fear of being hit. I am seeing chickens with their heads cut off running around our own zone. Why am I seeing this? This group is not tough, they don't stand their ground and last year they didn't even stand up for each other. Same so far this year. Sandin got smashed in the head! A kid, nothing but hey thank goodness for the bottom 6 or that was a loss as well.

Here if I am any coach vs Leafs...

--- Hit em hard, stay on them and pressure them at every chance. They will cough up the puck and you can knock them off their game. Easy peasy playoff win.

 

[rumman]

They must have read this. Those guys scored us a win tonight.

as if, all their free time goes to ironing their Bengamin's.

 

[thewave]

as if, all their free time goes to ironing their Bengamin's.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I am watching guys avoiding contact and letting other teams get the puck to avoid taking a hit. I am seeing timid players moving the puck far to quickly for fear of being hit. I am seeing chickens with their heads cut off running around our own zone.

Then you haven't been watching very carefully.

Why am I seeing this?

Because you're seeking it out and magnifying it when you do see it, because that's what you want to see.

This group is not tough, they don't stand their ground and last year they didn't even stand up for each other.

This is untrue.

Sandin got smashed in the head!

I don't think anybody even knew what had happened until he got back to the bench, where he was laughing. What exactly did you expect them to do? Go take a stupid penalty that solves nothing except let them get back in the game, which you would be in here complaining about too?

Here if I am any coach vs Leafs...
--- Hit em hard, stay on them and pressure them at every chance. They will cough up the puck and you can knock them off their game. Easy peasy playoff win.

And this is different from any coach vs any team, how? "Toughness" has literally not decided any playoff series Toronto has been in.

 

[Faltorvo]

I hear a debate a brewing. Old school versus new school. The last 2 Stanley Cup champs had size,grit and character. Are the Leafs going to follow the path of Washington ,were it took 20 years of failure before they recognized their need for grit to protect their stars and go in the corners etc? We have lost twice to Boston. Do we need to make some changes to beat them? We have a lot of expensive, flash offense but do we have the right balance to win?

I'm very curious to see where Leaf fans stand on this. Why? Because if we lose again first round, I think we need to fire more than just Babcock and certain things may not even be his fault. Thoughts....

I'm hearing a lot of teams really enjoy playing in Toronto. Is that the rep we want?

if you look at many teams that made it to the finals or final 4

they have a laundry list of their tops player (not just roster players) that play very strong 2 way hockey and "heavy hockey" , Bergeron,marchand,Pasta,Ror, Ovi,Toews,Crosby,malkin,Petro,chara,keith,seabrook, on and on I could go.

just look at how many selke contending players play for teams that make it to the final 4 (it's unreal)

and for those that are paying attention, that is what Babs has been preaching to this roster for some time now. but they just don't want to be "that player" , they don't like playing like that.

lack of skill is not the reason Boston dumped Hamilton and seguin.

 

[Faltorvo]

Toughness is not throwing big hits.

correction

toughness is not ONLY about throwing big hits.

 

[Faltorvo]

There are countless teams that have had equal or worse toughness than the current Leafs and gone on to win. People just revise history after they win and claim that those teams were "tough" all along. Toughness has literally never been an issue for this core in the playoffs.

ok

gimme as list of these countless teams

it should be easy for you.

 

[thewave]

Then you haven't been watching very carefully.


Because you're seeking it out and magnifying it when you do see it, because that's what you want to see.


This is untrue.


I don't think anybody even knew what had happened until he got back to the bench, where he was laughing. What exactly did you expect them to do? Go take a stupid penalty that solves nothing except let them get back in the game, which you would be in here complaining about too?


And this is different from any coach vs any team, how? "Toughness" has literally not decided any playoff series Toronto has been in.

i. I have
ii. I am not seeking out things, I just see it differently
iii. What is true then? Kadri stood up for some guys last season and perhaps Muzz
iv. I think they could have maybe taken it up with the player after.
v. I think WSH and Boston took us to task in our PO series, so that's three times.

 

[Faltorvo]

No this isn’t a balanced team, but tbh I don’t think it’s because of our “bottom” talent. Everyone in the bottom 6 plays with some tenacity imo. Honestly, I think Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly are the guys that can make a huge difference if they just finished a freaking check every once in a while. I love Matthews, but when I watch him play versus someone like MacKinnon I seriously ask myself why he can’t just play like that. Like Kopitar, Bergeron, ROR, Toews, Datsyuk etc...didn’t become premier two-way players by shying away from contact. “Toughness“ is something players can learn, and I honestly really thought once the big 3 got paid they’d start to play tougher as they’d have financial security in case of an injury, but it’s the exact same as before

i think matty is gun shy

after having back to back seasons shortened by shoulder issues, i kinda get it

you don't want my answer about those 2 pretty boy wingers.

rielly to me , does what he can for his size.

 

[Dekes For Days]

correction
toughness is not ONLY about throwing big hits.

It's not at all. Hitting has no correlation to winning. It's entirely for the fans and big hits more often than not are the wrong, much riskier play.

ok
gimme as list of these countless teams
it should be easy for you.

None of Carolina, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Washington or St Louis were considered "tough" before winning, and all were considered incredibly soft at times, including in years they won. This represents 10 of the 14 cups, or the large majority. Players do what needs to be done in the playoffs, Leafs included, and the ones that go further gain that reputation more than others. The Leafs have shown toughness in the playoffs, but it's written off because they lost, because of Boston's skill.

 

[thewave]

I created the poll, you can feel free to merge this. It's not hard to create a poll if you like, I mean, it's just below when you create a thread.

 

[MarnerElite]

Anyone watched Habs vs Blues last night? Wondering why none of our top players are playing with that much intensity..Max Domi was not just flying but he literally dove(and then sort of fell into the boards) to push the puck into an empty net. He doesnt need to do that shit at all since it's very early in the season yet every shift you see him just go go go(reminds me of how Moore is for us..every shift he's so involved and badly wants the puck). Quite a few guys(including Gallagher) playing with so much passion and all i see for us is JT, Willy and Mitch mostly just floating around, weak shots at the net, constant turnovers, afraid of getting hit and so on. The point of this? Yes it's definitely balance thing. It's actually sad that even Montreal could match us because they don't really have top level talent that we do.

 

[Dekes For Days]

ii. I am not seeking out things, I just see it differently

You clearly are; I don't even know how you can deny this.

iii. What is true then? Kadri stood up for some guys last season and perhaps Muzz

"Standing up" for each other doesn't mean throwing fists or taking stupid penalties or suspensions, which is what you seem to want them to do. They stood up for each other consistently.

iv. I think they could have maybe taken it up with the player after.

What does this even mean? I don't even think you know.

v. I think WSH and Boston took us to task in our PO series, so that's three times.

Neither Boston nor Washington out-"toughed" us. We lost last year because of insane skill and luck on the PP for Boston.

 

[Nineteen67]

i think matty is gun shy

after having back to back seasons shortened by shoulder issues, i kinda get it

you don't want my answer about those 2 pretty boy wingers.

rielly to me , does what he can for his size.

He’s not gun shy at all. He’s just never played hockey before he came to the NHL and has no idea how to play the game.
He’d have a lot more fun if he added a little crazy to his game.

 

[Faltorvo]

This team is 10 ply soft.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

When Hyman gets back we should be pretty balanced.
Tavares line looks bad and that’s the issue really.
Our third and fourth lines are dominant. Matthews line is dominant whenever he feels like it.

 

[paulhiggins]

Barely even watchable anymore and I was able to sit thru the Ballard years. This is woosy hockey. Woosy players and woosy GM. It would take a combined 20 of these guys to make up the heart of a single Doug Gilmour, Darcy Tucker, Tiger Williams, Wendel Clark or Gary Roberts. These current guys are living and breathing paychecks, expensive clothes, fancy dinners and tropical vacations, not hockey.

 

[darrylsittler27]

It's not at all. Hitting has no correlation to winning. It's entirely for the fans and big hits more often than not are the wrong, much riskier play.


None of Carolina, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, Washington or St Louis were considered "tough" before winning, and all were considered incredibly soft at times, including in years they won. This represents 10 of the 14 cups, or the large majority. Players do what needs to be done in the playoffs, Leafs included, and the ones that go further gain that reputation more than others. The Leafs have shown toughness in the playoffs, but it's written off because they lost, because of Boston's skill.

Woa Washington added size in Wilson and Pelly Smith. St Louis had a lot of grit and character while Chicago started with Biffy in their first cup.So you can subtract 3 from your 10. The last two Cup winners were not built like the Leafs.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Woa Washington added size in Wilson and Pelly Smith. St Louis had a lot of grit and character while Chicago started with Biffy in their first cup.So you can subtract 3 from your 10. The last two Cup winners were not built like the Leafs.

Once, again, revisionist history. Those weren't considered "tough teams" at the time, especially not Chicago or Washington.

Even if we remove those 3, that's still 7 out of 14 which suggests it's completely irrelevant.

There is no magic formula or requirement to win the cup. Just be better than the other team in the style that you choose, and get a ton of luck.

 

[darrylsittler27]

I don't think Hyman alone can fix this. We lost to Montreal and Minny is pretty weak right now. If the playoffs were soon,I would be concerned . One has to think a trade may be in order when Hyman and Dermott get back and we are stupidly loaded on the wings again. Some team out there needs offense and I think one more top 9 strong winger who goes in the corners,forechecks and finishes checks would supplement this group nicely. Myself , I think one of A.J or Kapanen could be the bait and with the offense we have, we can afford it.

 

[ORRFForever]

No... They could be the Washington Capitals from year gone by without more "weight".

 

[darrylsittler27]

Once, again, revisionist history. Those weren't considered "tough teams" at the time, especially not Chicago or Washington.

Even if we remove those 3, that's still 7 out of 14 which suggests it's completely irrelevant.

There is no magic formula or requirement to win the cup. Just be better than the other team in the style that you choose, and get a ton of luck.

Considered tough? This team is outright weak. Look at our wingers, it is almost all offense we can't afford anyway. Last year Dubas said " I don't know how we stack up against Columbus."

Pittsburgh was a freak because they had Crosby, Malkin,Letang and Kessel all in their prime. That isn't a formula.

Im saying this team needs to add certain kinds of players to supplement all that offense in the playoffs.

I think teams have and will target our stars.

 

[OVO16]

Add Hyman and Gravel to the squad permanently. Suddenly it's not so bad (even though it's still not great either)

Hyman - Tavares - Marner
Johnsson - Mathews - Nylander
Mikheyev - Kerfoot - Moore
Timashov - Gauthier - Kapanen

Rielly - Ceci
Muzzin - Barrie
Gravel - Dermott

Bolded are players who are at least one of these things: Gritty/Feisty/Physical/Can throw body checks

 

[Dekes For Days]

This team is outright weak.

It is not.

Pittsburgh was a freak because they had Crosby, Malkin,Letang and Kessel all in their prime.

1. None of those players were in their primes.
2. Toronto has Matthews, Tavares, Marner, and Rielly, plus more depth.

Im saying this team needs to add certain kinds of players to supplement all that offense in the playoffs.

The team doesn't need to add anything to be highly competitive in the playoffs.

I think teams have and will target our stars.

If teams are going to target our stars, "tough" guys will do absolutely nothing to stop it.