Can we do a poll? Do the Leafs have the right balance?

[Menzinger]

Korshov and Engvall should be on the Leafs roster they add size and speed plus some grit, along with the return of Hyman, also in the future Harpur added to the D after Keefe and his staff refine his game with the Marlies. Waive Petan, Spezza,

Korshov is an interesting case. Skill wise I doubt he wont ever be an impact player but during his preseason tryouts he did look as if he slide into a role as a supporting guy. And in terms of physical frame he certainly fits that mold that some.folks here are looking for.

Problem becomes opening up enough cap to get him up (as well as a roster spot). Would likely need someone like Kapanen to be traded (or even Kapanen + Ceci) to allow the Leafs to mixup both Defense and winger depth

 

[disgruntleddave]

The real question here is, what is the right balance?

The leafs are weighted differently from other teams for sure. So far that hasn't yielded success. Compared to what most people think of as a balanced team, clearly we aren't. However that doesn't necessarily mean that this kind of team can't have success.

 

[hector morrison]

The real question here is, what is the right balance?

The leafs are weighted differently from other teams for sure. So far that hasn't yielded success. Compared to what most people think of as a balanced team, clearly we aren't. However that doesn't necessarily mean that this kind of team can't have success.

I like the talent level of the Leafs that Dubas has provided. However,what I have yet to be convinced of is his philosophy that 'Our Power Play is what will stop opponents from running roughshod over our talented players. That hasn't really worked yet! The Leafs don't want an 'enforcer'taking up a roster spot. Dubas is undr the impression that the League has/is evolving into a less physical style of hockey,yet recent Cup winners don't support that...at all!

Leaf brass want their players to walk away and let the Refs handle it. Relying on the Refs is a bad idea. Sooner or later,one of the talented players are gonna get hurt from other teams being more physical,taking liberties because they know that no one on the team will stand up to them or retaliate in any way at all(I find this embarassing). The ensuing power play is small consolation if Marner or Matthews is on the shelf for 2 months because of a dirty hit. For those thinking that having guys that can 'take care of business 'isn't a deterrent,well I guess they have never experienced it. Having done that job,I can admit it isn't a fool proof system ,but it's better than having your stars getting manhandled.they really do appreciate someone having their back!

 

[Polaris1010]

I hear a debate a brewing. Old school versus new school. The last 2 Stanley Cup champs had size,grit and character.

The best two lines tonight in Detroit was the 3rd and 4th, aka the bottom six.

This is after two embarrassing losses at home. Look who answers the bell.

When Hyman returns, the team will be much better.

But that in itself indicates a problem. Hyman is not a savior. The problems with the players run a lot deeper than anyone is willing to admit.

This is all on management. They pull the trigger on the trades and player personnel.

 

[thewave]

This team is a top heavy roster that cant go head-to-head with other teams top lines.

After the top 5 guys, the rest of the roster offers nothing. No defense, no PK, no grit, no energy. Just a whole lot of nothing

They must have read this. Those guys scored us a win tonight.

 

[Duffman955]

They must have read this. Those guys scored us a win tonight.

Lmao I think lots of players go on HF tbh.

 

[PromisedLand]

I personally wish the Leafs were bigger, stronger and more physical so that they would be better prepared for all sorts of opposition.

Simply being fast and skilled has its limitations and already knowing that you will run from a fight when the going gets tough doesn't give one a feeling of success is imminent.

Just not sure how many times the Leafs will need to be tossed from the playoff show before management gets on board that you need more backbone to succeed.

This!

Regular season hockey DOES NOT EQUAL playoff hockey when refs put the whistle away and it is the will over skill that matters!!!

 

[LeafingTheWay]

*Leafs bottom-6 forwards absolutely dominates the game*

Leaf fans: "But, but, but we need more toughness and grit in our bottom-6. They need to fight people and stuff."

People would rather have traded for Polak than for Barrie, Lucic for Kapanen. That's saying a whole lot.

People need to relax and realize that we're this good WITHOUT Tavares, Marner, Kapanen, Rielly, Barrie, Andersen starting off very slow AND without Hyman/Dermott. The overreactions are ridiculous. Just like the Nylander hate last season, jumping the gun when the underlying numbers indicate otherwise... is naive.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

This!

Regular season hockey DOES NOT EQUAL playoff hockey when refs put the whistle away and it is the will over skill that matters!!!

"Refs put their whistles away"

Leafs drew 2.9 PP's per game in the regular season, versus 2.6 PP's game in the playoffs. That's a VERY marginal difference.

Screw that for a second though, and re-think why we lost to Boston.

We lost to Boston not because of 'will over skill', we lost because of skill. Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak man-handled us. Not with 'toughness', not with 'will to win', not with 'heart and desire'. Man-handled us with pure skill.

You can take apart any of the 3 playoff series we've been in. We lost because of skill. This year's team is stacked with more skill than ever before from top-to-bottom.

The issues still left with the team (Once Hyman, Dermott come back):
- Ceci is still an issue and should not be in our top-4D.
- Mikaheyev-Kerfoot-Kapanen, Timashov-Shore-Moore need to be locked as our bottom-6 (once healthy).
- Backup goalie is still a need.

 

[Menzinger]

Boston literally won the latest playoff series because of their beastly PP. They won off.the backs off the refs whistles.

The idea that the Bruins out grinded the Leafs at even strength is a fantasy and nothing more. People just keep parroting the same slogans not grounded in actual reality

 

[dimi78]

The funniest thing is when people bring up the Burke era to counter this argument...as if that's what we actually want.

First of all,

-Burke led teams didnt have nowhere near the Skill and star power we do now.
-Burke led teams had unplayable goons like Orr and MClaren. We dont want goons

Now that we clearly have the skill part sorted out...we need to mix it out with the Grit. We need Guys that can Skate, play tough alng the boards, clear the net, drive hard to the net and do the grimy stuff.

We dont have enough of those players

Your sort of right... Brett Hull and Steve Yzerman early on were offensive leaders it wasn't until Hitchcock and Bowman effectively got there hands on them to put there work ethic before there skill did they start playing winning hockey... Our best players need to start to bring these traits you speak of to the table starting with Matthews consistently or this won't work out regardless.

What you and many others don't get but Babcock does is that it takes 23 guys that can Skate, play tough alng the boards, clear the net, drive hard to the net and do the grimy stuff to win a championship. Our skilled top end guys should be leaders of these traits and until they establish these traits in there game they're not winning anything.

 

[Polaris1010]

*Leafs bottom-6 forwards absolutely dominates the game*

Leaf fans: "But, but, but we need more toughness and grit in our bottom-6. They need to fight people and stuff."

People would rather have traded for Polak than for Barrie, Lucic for Kapanen. That's saying a whole lot.

People need to relax and realize that we're this good WITHOUT Tavares, Marner, Kapanen, Rielly, Barrie, Andersen starting off very slow AND without Hyman/Dermott. The overreactions are ridiculous. Just like the Nylander hate last season, jumping the gun when the underlying numbers indicate otherwise... is naive.

Why did the Leafs sign Gary Roberts and Shane Corson?

Why did the Leafs trade for Darcy Tucker?

This is what I think.

If Dubas insists he will learn the hard way . . . I don't think Shanahan will keep him around.

I doubt Brendan Shanahan is like Harold Ballard. Mr. Ballard never listened to anybody. He did not care. Shanahan is different. He may not be entirely sure of what he is doing, but he seeks advice. People will tell him his team is not tough enough. Shanahan was a pretty hard nose player himself.

If we see more games like this in Detroit where the bottom six is a cut above all those players with fat contracts, Shanahan is going to want answers.

 

[Mickey Marner]

He's only been GM for 1.5 years, I'm not sure why people already expect monumental changes. Most of our skilled players weren't even acquired by Dubas.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I'll just address what OP mentioned, that the last two teams had size, grit, and character.

Size: We are actually a fairly big team. Significantly heavier than average, and of league average height. Add both ranks up and we are a top 10 team in size.
Grit: Point to OP.
Character: It's worth pointing out that both of the last two winners were known for lacking the character to win. They are now seen as teams with a strong character because of the win. Character is almost always an after-construct for a team that hasn't won in their current window.

So we are left with grit. I think we're building towards it. Kerfoot is showing a surprising amount of grit, and Muzzin is very gritty. Tavares has always been known for having a workers kind of grit.

 

[Nithoniniel]

This team is a top heavy roster that cant go head-to-head with other teams top lines.

After the top 5 guys, the rest of the roster offers nothing. No defense, no PK, no grit, no energy. Just a whole lot of nothing

That's nonsensical. Almost all our top PKers are depth players. There's quite a few excellent defensive players there as well. And no energy? How does that look after last night? How can you watch this season so far and say that the third line doesn't provide it on an almost nightly basis?

Our depth is a strength. It's only an issue is you have an extremely narrow view on what they should provide.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Well so far it hasn't mattered so I guess, we'll see is the correct answer.

 

[thewave]

Lmao I think lots of players go on HF tbh.

Absolutely. especially JRs, you can read and tell some of the guys here are in the system. I mean, this is the best game in town to talk hockey smack, so it would make sense that players come here and media as well. I can't even tell you how many times media guys have almost lifted topics here a couple months down the line and dropped it on TV (you've probably seen it as well).

 

[Leafsfan74]

Yes, they need "grit". Every team does and ironically every team has it. Size means nothing. Character is everything.

What I mean when I say "every team has it", the Will to Win comes from within. This is the Leafs roster barring a tweak or two, so if you are looking for something they don't have, you won't get it.

All teams still win with their best players, there isn't a 4th line "smash and bang" player who will decide the next Cup winner, even if such players still exist.

If every player played every shift as if their life depended on winning, you'd see some teams go 82-0

Go Leafs Go!

 

[Not My Tempo]

No this isn’t a balanced team, but tbh I don’t think it’s because of our “bottom” talent. Everyone in the bottom 6 plays with some tenacity imo. Honestly, I think Matthews, Marner, Nylander, and Rielly are the guys that can make a huge difference if they just finished a freaking check every once in a while. I love Matthews, but when I watch him play versus someone like MacKinnon I seriously ask myself why he can’t just play like that. Like Kopitar, Bergeron, ROR, Toews, Datsyuk etc...didn’t become premier two-way players by shying away from contact. “Toughness“ is something players can learn, and I honestly really thought once the big 3 got paid they’d start to play tougher as they’d have financial security in case of an injury, but it’s the exact same as before

 

[ottomaddox]

I hear a debate a brewing. Old school versus new school. The last 2 Stanley Cup champs had size,grit and character. Are the Leafs going to follow the path of Washington ,were it took 20 years of failure before they recognized their need for grit to protect their stars and go in the corners etc? We have lost twice to Boston. Do we need to make some changes to beat them? We have a lot of expensive, flash offense but do we have the right balance to win?

I'm very curious to see where Leaf fans stand on this. Why? Because if we lose again first round, I think we need to fire more than just Babcock and certain things may not even be his fault. Thoughts....

I'm hearing a lot of teams really enjoy playing in Toronto. Is that the rep we want?

Don't you dare call me "old school".

The only difference you see in the league is they've done away with staged fighting.

Players still grind, finish, check, pest, fight, elbow, face wash, bump, scratch, punch,etc.

Being physical is as new as new. The game you love is still a contact sport. Fighting is in the rules.

Boston, VGK, ST. Louis, WSH, etc. are new and technologically advanced.

Aggressive hockey is as new school as anything you've downloaded for your phone.

Get on the change train sucka, or you'll get derailed.

 

[Nineteen67]

The last 55 Cup winning teams have had bits and pieces of speed (relative) , skill, determination, grit, toughness, a really good number 1 D, terrific goaltending and some luck along the way.

Winning teams get some of toughness, and most of determination and skill from their top players.

So, no.

 

[thewave]

The last 55 Cup winning teams have had bits and pieces of speed (relative) , skill, determination, grit, toughness, terrific goaltending and some luck along the way.

I don't remember a team as soft as we are right now ever winning. There may be one or two in there that did but I can't even think of the name.

 

[Nineteen67]

I don't remember a team as soft as we are right now ever winning. There may be one or two in there that did but I can't even think of the name.

I go back 55 yrs, prior to that, maybe.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't remember a team as soft as we are right now ever winning. There may be one or two in there that did but I can't even think of the name.

There are countless teams that have had equal or worse toughness than the current Leafs and gone on to win. People just revise history after they win and claim that those teams were "tough" all along. Toughness has literally never been an issue for this core in the playoffs.

 

[thewave]

There are countless teams that have had equal or worse toughness than the current Leafs and gone on to win. People just revise history after they win and claim that those teams were "tough" all along. Toughness has literally never been an issue for this core in the playoffs.

Who do we have that embodies toughness outside Muzzin? Goat is part time tough apparently.