Can a team terminate a contract for a player being overweight? Jake Dotchin

[TOGuy14]

Aren't players expected to be in athletic shape throughout their contract?

However, 30 lbs doesn't seem all that much. Athletes have a much better state of mind to be able to go on a diet and get into better shape than the average person.

30 pounds is a lot of weight for anyone to cut but especially a professional athlete.

I don’t think many trainers or dietitians would recommend cutting more than 5-6 pounds a week, which means he would be nearly a month out of playing shape

 

[Kane One]

30 pounds is a lot of weight for anyone to cut but especially a professional athlete.

I don’t think many trainers or dietitians would recommend cutting more than 5-6 pounds a week, which means he would be nearly a month out of playing shape

Since he showed up to camp 30 lbs overweight, wouldn't he be able to lose the majority of it by the time the season starts?

 

[LadyStanley]

It's about 3 weeks from start of camp to opening night. That might be 15-18 pounds **if he were willing to do the work to take it off**.

 

[LadyStanley]

Duhatschek Notebook: The harsh realities of modern NHL...

Duhatschek shares his experience of participating in NHL fitness testing and brings up a few incidents of suspending a player for being out of shape at the start of camp. Even a couple of kids who got cut early from camp and turned their fitness around since (like Gary Roberts, now a fitness guru).

Contracts do have a minimum fitness/BMI level to be attained, but it's not stated what that is.

(Paywall)

 

[Frank Drebin]

I completely expect this to take a "fat shaming" type of route if it gets very public, though.

Fat shaming professional athletes is perfectly acceptable

 

[Frank Drebin]

It's about 3 weeks from start of camp to opening night. That might be 15-18 pounds **if he were willing to do the work to take it off**.

Plus loss of strength from the extremely rapid weight loss.

30 pounds is at least 3 months

 

[mouser]

Duhatschek Notebook: The harsh realities of modern NHL...

Contracts do have a minimum fitness/BMI level to be attained, but it's not stated what that is.

(Paywall)

Want to point out those minimum fitness levels are probably part of the CBA sanctioned team rules rather then specifically written into each contract.

 

[LadyStanley]

31 Thoughts: Team owners played key role in Erik Karlsson trade - Sportsnet.ca

Friedman reports the NHLPA still has some time before they need to decide if they'll appeal...

The NHLPA has another seven weeks to decide if it will appeal Tampa’s termination of Jake Dotchin’s contract, but how can it not? As one GM said Sunday, “What happens if some team is pissed off at someone with five years left on his deal, and he can’t do a pushup? Can he get cut, too?”

When news of the Lightning’s manoeuvre became known, there were a number of teams seeking additional information. Make no mistake, there was interest. Things cooled because of the impression this is an extreme case, with information the defenceman reported with 25 per cent body fat. I’m sensitive to this for two reasons: first, for much of the past 30 years, I’ve been way too fat myself. Second, you wonder if there’s a health reason this happened. Hopefully, that’s not the case.

 

[Ola]

Its easy to understand what obviously can and cannot be done.

A player showing up way to fat can obviously have his contract terminated with reference to specific club rules that require something else. On the other side of the spectrum, a club can of course not stipulate that the contract of any player with a name starting with an M that ends with arc Staal can be terminated if he shows up in camp being shorter than 7'4.

As a lawyer in Sweden, a question over here on what would apply would boil down to what a team "reasonably" could expect from a player and vice versa, what a player "reasonably" could expect that his team would require. Anyone know what the relevant factors are in the US for this?

 

[x Tame Impala]

He's listed at 6'3" 210lbs. Even for a bigger guy, 30lbs overweight is insane. For this to be the second year in a row, I'm totally okay with teams being able to terminate contracts like that. The team is investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in him with the understanding that his athletic abilities will make the Lightning better. It seems totally reasonable for an athlete to show up in terrible shape more than once is grounds for contract termination.

 

[Jumptheshark]

He's listed at 6'3" 210lbs. Even for a bigger guy, 30lbs overweight is insane. For this to be the second year in a row, I'm totally okay with teams being able to terminate contracts like that. The team is investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in him with the understanding that his athletic abilities will make the Lightning better. It seems totally reasonable for an athlete to show up in terrible shape more than once is grounds for contract termination.

I did some digging into his JR days and even then he did not show up to camp in shape. I as reading one article from a few years ago, where HC Greg Ireland was frustrated with Dotchin coming to camp not ready--but said it took him about a week and half to somewhat into shape with his play getting betting in Dec/Jan--

So it looks like he has a history of showing up out of shape and playing his way into game shape--that may work in JR--but not in the NHL or AHL now--40 years ago yes

 

[LadyStanley]

Was listening to a podcast (Friedman) and he was hearing that player was 25% fat and 45 pounds overweight.

Sounds like a very extreme case of not keeping in shape and/or not eating properly.

 

[Ernie]

I wonder if it makes sense for the NHLPA to even appeal this if they aren't certain they'll win.

Sounds like the team had a pretty good case - if reports are true the player was not in any shape to meet the requirements of his employment.

So if the NHLPA appeals this cases and loses, does that precedent mean teams will try to do the same thing in less obvious cases?

At the same time, I'd bet the players themselves aren't really supportive of an appeal. They play a competitive game and at the end of the day any NHL money that goes to a player demoted to the AHL ends up coming out of their pockets.

If I was the NHLPA, I'd push for a suspension without pay until the player has reached a reasonable fitness level. A good argument could be made that while a penalty is warranted, contract termination should only be the option of last resort.

 

[mouser]

I wonder if it makes sense for the NHLPA to even appeal this if they aren't certain they'll win.

Sounds like the team had a pretty good case - if reports are true the player was not in any shape to meet the requirements of his employment.

So if the NHLPA appeals this cases and loses, does that precedent mean teams will try to do the same thing in less obvious cases?

At the same time, I'd bet the players themselves aren't really supportive of an appeal. They play a competitive game and at the end of the day any NHL money that goes to a player demoted to the AHL ends up coming out of their pockets.

If I was the NHLPA, I'd push for a suspension without pay until the player has reached a reasonable fitness level. A good argument could be made that while a penalty is warranted, contract termination should only be the option of last resort.

It's an interesting question for the PA. I'd point out there's the possibility that even if they lose that the arbitrator could establish some reasonable guidelines the PA might not be unhappy with. Such as the possibility that TB can only do this due factors such as:

- Multiple consecutive years (if true)
- Extreme case of being out of conditioning, without other mitigating factors such as recovering from injury or having other health issues during the offseason.

plus possibly rule:
- In other lesser cases suspension/fines are the permitted remedies.

 

[LadyStanley]

...at the end of the day any NHL money that goes to a player demoted to the AHL ends up coming out of their pockets.

If a one-way contract under $925k (or whatever the threshold is this season per CBA) is sent to the AHL, there is no NHL cap hit.

If a one-way contract over $925k is demoted, only $$ above threshold counts against the cap.


Or am I not understanding what was meant?

 

[Ernie]

If a one-way contract under $925k (or whatever the threshold is this season per CBA) is sent to the AHL, there is no NHL cap hit.

If a one-way contract over $925k is demoted, only $$ above threshold counts against the cap.


Or am I not understanding what was meant?

It all comes out of the players' share of revenues, and they just end up paying a higher escrow. So essentially, the players are paying Dotchkin to be fat and lazy.

 

[LadyStanley]

Salary paid to AHLers does not count against cap/player share except as I mentioned above

 

[Ernie]

Salary paid to AHLers does not count against cap/player share except as I mentioned above

You're right in that it doesn't count against the cap but his salary does come of the 50% players' share of revenues, just like buyouts or players who are on LTIR indefinitely.

 

[LadyStanley]

AHL salaries are NOT included in NHL "player share"

 

[Ernie]

This is an NHL contract, not an AHL contract.

 

[LadyStanley]

This is an NHL contract, not an AHL contract.

A team typically has 45+ NHL contracts. 22+ of those are assigned to the AHL AND DO NOT COUNT AGAINST THE CAP (unless over $925k), DO NOT COUNT AS PART OF THE "PLAYER SHARE" OF HRR. Only the 23 NHL contracts count as part of player share.

AHL contracts do not count as part of NHL player share of HRR nor count against cap (by definition).

 

[Ernie]

Can you indicate the relevant sections of the CBA that state this? I can find no such clause.

 

[mouser]

Can you indicate the relevant sections of the CBA that state this? I can find no such clause.

It's effectively stated in multiple areas of Article 50. Actual Club Salary for all the teams is tallied to determine the league wide player compensation. Article 50.2(c) shows the elements in Actual Club Salary.

50.2(c) For each League Year, "Actual Club Salary" for each Club shall be calculated as the sum of the following amounts:

(i) The aggregate Player Salaries and Bonuses paid or earned for that League Year for all Players on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non-Roster and Non-Roster; plus

(ii) All amounts earned in that League Year by Players on account of Deferred Salary and Deferred Bonuses (in accordance with Section 50.2(a) and Section 50.2(b) respectively); plus

(iii) All Ordinary Course Buy-Out amounts and Compliance Buy-Out amounts paid in that League Year (in accordance with Section 50.9(i)); plus

(iv) All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Actual Club Salary; plus

(v) With respect to any Player Salary or Bonus dispute between a Player and a Club (including but not limited to disputes arising under the Collective Bargaining Agreement expired September 15, 2012), any amount paid (excluding interest) in satisfaction of any award or judgment relating to, or settlement of, any such dispute, but only to the extent that such amounts have not otherwise been included in the Player's Player Salary or Bonuses; plus

(vi) All payments made by one Club to another Club on account of Player Salary and Bonuses it has agreed to retain as part of a Retained Salary Transaction (as described in Section 50.5(e)(iii) below); less

(vii) All payments received by one Club from another Club on account of Player Salary and Bonuses retained by that other Club as part of a Retained Salary Transaction (as described in Section 50.5(e)(iii) below).

So per this, none of the money paid to a minor league player is included in the Player Share, except for the age 35+ clause. Note: if you read further through article 50 be careful to differentiate between Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary. Actual Club Salary is used to determine the Player Share. Averaged Club Salary is used to determine the team's cap figures.

 

[Voight]

I thought Dean Lombardi was working for the Flyers these days?

 

[LeHab]