Cale Fleury or Timothy Liljegren

[lomiller1]

They were pretty close the last 2 seasons but I think the player "coming from behind" needs to do a little more than the incumbent to get moved past them. I’d take our 3rd round pick (Kovacevic 74OA) over either, but Fleury is coming along nicely for a 3rd round pick. I want more from A first round pick like Liljegrin even though I still give him a slight edge.

 

[Merrrlin]

I'd go Liljegren here.

 

[sharks9]

Liljegren and not particularly close.

Why? Same draft and Fleury outproduced him on a far worse team. What about them makes it not close?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Embarrassing poll. The Liljegren hate is unreal.

 

[Just Linda]

Not a fan of either one.

Fluery is the better prospect currently in that he's closer to the NHL imho but has a lower upside.

I'll take Lil for this one as a Habs fan.

 

[sharks9]

Embarrassing poll. The Liljegren hate is unreal.

No one in this thread has explained why comparing Liljegren with someone from the same draft who outproduced him in the same league is embarrassing. I don't get it.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

No one in this thread has explained why comparing Liljegren with someone from the same draft who outproduced him in the same league is embarrassing. I don't get it.

Exactly, it is just leftover hate from MrB1p's top-5o prospects ranking. People are just mad at the idea that Toronto's first rounder is very comparable to Montreal's third rounder

 

[joe dirte]

Why? Same draft and Fleury outproduced him on a far worse team. What about them makes it not close?

He did??

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

He did??

Statistically yes, there is no argument otherwise

 

[abo9]

There might be a language component, every other NHL market is Anglo so that explains some of it.

Be happy this board is not flocked with unilingual French Habs fans (coming from a French guy from Quebec). You'd read the comments on the social pages of RDS or TVA Sports (the French sports medias in Quebec) and bash your head against a wall.

Anyway on topic. People saying Fleury outproduced Liljegren don't seem to take into account the difference in games played... Liljegren produced pts/games similar to Fleury. I'd be interested to compare the usage of both players , but from looking at both rosters Fleury seems to be "The guy" in Laval while there seem to be pretty good defensmen beside Liljegren with the Marlies.

That might positively affect Fleury's development as he might be forced to play in a more important role in the minors? That's all speculations though

 

[sharks9]

He did??

Yes, more goals, points and a higher points per game.

Marlies were 6th in GF, Laval was 29th.

 

[joe dirte]

Statistically yes, there is no argument otherwise

Statistically the prospect habs fans consider decent, that poehling kid, couldnt outproduce the leafs press box boy dman igor ozhiganov.

 

[joe dirte]

Yes, more goals, points and a higher points per game.

Marlies were 6th in GF, Laval was 29th.

Poimts per game were pretty much the same. Difference of a point or two.

Some context would help that though.

Yiu should probably also keep in mind that 8f cale fleury were a leaf prosoect he could very well score way less. He probably wouldnt get much uce time at all, letvalone prime PP time, playing behind rosen, sandin, lilhegren, etc.

If liljegren were healthy the whole season, and getting all that prime ice in laval, man, he'd pile up points nicely.

Moving to higher scoring better team doesnt always mean more points.

 

[sharks9]

Poimts per game were pretty much the same. Difference of a point or two.

Some context would help that though.

Yiu should probably also keep in mind that 8f cale fleury were a leaf prosoect he could very well score way less. He probably wouldnt get much uce time at all, letvalone prime PP time, playing behind rosen, sandin, lilhegren, etc.

If liljegren were healthy the whole season, and getting all that prime ice in laval, man, he'd pile up points nicely.

Moving to higher scoring better team doesnt always mean more points.

Leafs fans keep saying that Liljegren was the #1D on the Marlies though? Shouldn't he have had ample opportunity to put up points?

Who said Fleury was getting tons of prime ice-time? The AHL doesn't publish TOI stats. No one knows the difference in ice-time between the two players. Also worth noting that Cale Fleury spent a good amount of time playing with Karl Alzner, an offensive black hole.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Statistically the prospect habs fans consider decent, that poehling kid, couldnt outproduce the leafs press box boy dman igor ozhiganov.

Conceding defeat already?

 

[Knies iT]

Liljegren and its not close. For those who track possession and corsi numbers in the Marlies community, Liljegren is a play driving monster despite his high DZ starts. One of the best transition defenders in the AHL but he doesn't get the PP time to inflate his numbers.

He's the rare case of a Leaf prospect approaching underrated territory. Eerily reminiscent of Kapanen at the same age.

Why? Same draft and Fleury outproduced him on a far worse team. What about them makes it not close?

Yes, more goals, points and a higher points per game.

Marlies were 6th in GF, Laval was 29th.

This is the level of insight you get with HFHabs: goals and assists.

Andrew Nielsen is a better prospect than Fleury. He had 14 goals and 40 points in his rookie AHL season according to hockeydb. The Habs should trade for him, young Shea Weber in the making.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Be happy this board is not flocked with unilingual French Habs fans (coming from a French guy from Quebec). You'd read the comments on the social pages of RDS or TVA Sports (the French sports medias in Quebec) and bash your head against a wall.

Anyway on topic. People saying Fleury outproduced Liljegren don't seem to take into account the difference in games played... Liljegren produced pts/games similar to Fleury. I'd be interested to compare the usage of both players , but from looking at both rosters Fleury seems to be "The guy" in Laval while there seem to be pretty good defensmen beside Liljegren with the Marlies.

That might positively affect Fleury's development as he might be forced to play in a more important role in the minors? That's all speculations though

Liljegren was the Marlies #1 by usage by the end of the year, but you're not wrong that he had good players around him. There isn't super reliable possession stats available for the AHL but theres a sort of amateur beat reporter that follows the Marlies that does corsi counts himself and he had Liljegren at over 70% CF for much of the playoffs. Take that with a grain of salt because the guy is a huge Liljegren fan, but he was very good as the Marlies top guy after he got over the high ankle sprain.

 

[sharks9]

This is the level of insight you get with HFHabs: goals and assists.

Andrew Nielsen is a better prospect than Fleury. He had 14 goals and 40 points in his rookie AHL season according to hockeydb. The Habs should trade for him, young Shea Weber in the making.

And your insight is what? Stats for one player and "it's not close." Not a single mention about anything to do with Fleury.

This is exactly my point, Leafs fans all just saying that it's not close based on Liljegren's draft position and nothing else.

What exactly is Liljegren SO amazing at that it makes it "not even close", despite him being a less productive player than Fleury?

 

[joe dirte]

Leafs fans keep saying that Liljegren was the #1D on the Marlies though? Shouldn't he have had ample opportunity to put up points?

Who said Fleury was getting tons of prime ice-time? The AHL doesn't publish TOI stats. No one knows the difference in ice-time between the two players. Also worth noting that Cale Fleury spent a good amount of time playing with Karl Alzner, an offensive black hole.

I havent seen that anywhere. He certainly played time on the first pairing. But when youve got 4 of the top dmen in the league you dont gift anyone piles of time and opportunity. It gets spread around.

Its like karlsson on the sens. He in part got 30 minutes of ice a night, and 7 minutes on the PP because they have no one else to play. And yeah thats gonna help jack up his points.

Liljegren has developed as a more defensive dman and theyve got a couple of top offensive dmen on the marlies. Racking up points wasnt his role.

 

[biotk]

Was thinking about this today and am curious as to what popular consensus is. Both 2017 draftees playing for rival franchises. I'll add poll options to balance out fanbase bias so try and be honest

The question doesn't make obvious what you are asking. Are you asking who is better now? Are you asking who would you take going forward?

I haven't watched Fleury play, but regardless I would take Liljegren going forward because I think he has a much higher ceiling, although I highly doubt he reaches it. Chances are both are predominantly 3rd pairing D in the NHL so it doesn't matter - although NHL teams would be much more thrilled if their 3rd rounders turn into 3rd pairing D than if their 1st rounders turn into 3rd pairing D.

 

[abo9]

Liljegren was the Marlies #1 by usage by the end of the year, but you're not wrong that he had good players around him. There isn't super reliable possession stats available for the AHL but theres a sort of amateur beat reporter that follows the Marlies that does corsi counts himself and he had Liljegren at over 70% CF for much of the playoffs. Take that with a grain of salt because the guy is a huge Liljegren fan, but he was very good as the Marlies top guy after he got over the high ankle sprain.

Hopefully he does not get anymore big injuries, it will be interesting to see how the quality of the respective AHL teams will affect the play of those rookies. Given Toronto/Marlies record of success in the AHL, I'd bet that having a successful farm makes for better development (look Hyman, Johnsson, etc. types that Montreal does not seem to be able to develop). Now with Montreal hopefully Laval becomes better with all the rookies going but Fleury, Evans already have a season or two under a terrible team so I'm looking forward to see how they develop

 

[Randy Randerson]

Hopefully he does not get anymore big injuries, it will be interesting to see how the quality of the respective AHL teams will affect the play of those rookies. Given Toronto/Marlies record of success in the AHL, I'd bet that having a successful farm makes for better development (look Hyman, Johnsson, etc. types that Montreal does not seem to be able to develop). Now with Montreal hopefully Laval becomes better with all the rookies going but Fleury, Evans already have a season or two under a terrible team so I'm looking forward to see how they develop

Agree on the injuries, but knock on wood he hasn't had anything that usually repeats. And yes our farm system seems to finally be producing NHL'ers regularly which is going to be important with the big contracts we have for the core players.

I hope that Montreal manages to develop some of your prospects into good players, I'd love to see the Habs-Leafs rivalry mean something again

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Leafs fans will use draft pedigree to incorrectly choose Liljegren.

habs fans will use the fact that one is a Habs prospect to incorrectly choose Fleury.

Both fanbases will incorrectly vote as neutral fans desperately trying to bias the poll.

 

[bsu]

Both will not be as good as both fan bases think imo.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

And your insight is what? Stats for one player and "it's not close." Not a single mention about anything to do with Fleury.

This is exactly my point, Leafs fans all just saying that it's not close based on Liljegren's draft position and nothing else.

What exactly is Liljegren SO amazing at that it makes it "not even close", despite him being a less productive player than Fleury?

I wouldn't say its aniec but it is Lilj without question.
He put up those points in a defensive roll.
Plus when you see them play you can clearly see that Lilj is a better skater, lil more skilled.