Calder Race 2016/2017 #6

[TIGERCOOL]

This is just pure hypothetical claims, and there is no team proof that things are really so. Although I do understand that the Leaf fans desperately want it to be so. They are so insecure about it, if after all the number 2 pick is or will be after all the best player in the draft. They much be quite even as players right now, although by many ways quite different. But I still seriously believe that Laine has so much more potential to develop physically than Matthews, that Laine will make a gap as a player to Matthews. Esoexially when he gerd more and more accustomed to the North American game and rinks. Matthews has had this season still physically and play style experience-wise a huge gap over Laine. This advantage will he already very much lost during next season. And after a couple of seasons later Laine will start really building the gap. This is my claim. But no use to argue about it now, as time will only tell...

So, to clarify...You criticize him for citing hypotheticals and then go off on a completely hypothetical tangent in which Laine has much more improvement potential than Matthews? Sounds about right.

Only on hfboards could you make an argument that linemate quality makes no substantial difference to production with a straight face. I almost can't believe what I'm reading on here sometimes.

Also lol @ the hab fan trying to draw parallels between Crosby and Matthews like it's a bad thing. By the way, I think Crosby did just fine at the World Cup with Marchand and Bergeron recently. What a couple of scrubs they are...

 

[gwh]

Betting has Laine leading by a hair. Marner/Mathews right there tied for second.

Next year's race will be boring...

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Betting has Laine leading by a hair. Marner/Mathews right there tied for second.

Next year's race will be boring...

Too bad Pulju doesn't count next year. I think he'll go on a tear.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Yeah, it's not much of a stretch to think Scheifele, Ehlers would be of better help offensively than Hyman and Brown, to say the least.

We can always test the theory out. Can someone get Chevy on the line? No takesies backsies

 

[BB88]

He's not carried, but they absolutely help him produce at the rate he is producing. There is a clear disparity in his production with and with-out Schiefele over a reasonable sample size.

Not saying you but I've seen so many straight up Laine gets carried by his linemates, that is boring.

He isn't carried by them, but they certainly boost his production a great deal. Mark Scheifele is top 10 league wide in points... he is the 6th highest scoring center. That's insane. He's really, really, really good, and being on his line is a tremendous benefit to any winger. He's also done it with a rotating cast of players all season long. His production without Laine actually slightly increased, for instance.

He's a stud. You guys are nuts to undersell him

Of course Scheifele is fantastic, but Laine has one of the best shots in the league, he can beat goalies clean from the blueline. You don't need to give him a open net for him to be able to score. Just give him the puck in the offensive zone and he is dangerous, no matter where he is there.
I've said it before that I believe with different/weaker linemates Laine would have more of a shoot 1st mentality. Now he most of the time stops the puck and starts looking for passing plays. It almost feels like because he's a rookie he wants to be polite and would love to see him shoot more especially now when the team has been struggling.

 

[93LEAFS]

You know I have said nothing of what you imply I said? My point all along is that Matthews is perhaps not as dragged down by his linemates as you make him out to be. Linemates skill will not directly correlate to higher production, even if it seems evident at first. Thats why you simplify my argument and misrepresent it.

It is wierd to me above all that if Laine is not being carried or is not a product of his linemates, then why is that an argument against him?

I mean we can disagree all day long on how much Matthews would produce more with Ehlers on his wing, and nobody will ever know for sure, but you saying I "ignore" that argument, and think all "linemates are equal" is dishonest.

He isn't carried, but it improves his numbers. He wouldn't have these totals if he was stuck playing with Perrault and Connor all year or Copp and Armia. Which is basically the quality of linemates that Matthews plays with.

But we fundamentally disagree. If you don't think replacing Hyman with someone who could finish would improve his numbers, then their really is no middleground. Hyman is shooting 6.8%, which is lower than Kunitz or Dupuis ever shot with the penguins. At 5v5 Hyman is shooting 5%. That is pretty low for a guy playing the minutes he does with an All-star center.

 

[Bourdon101]

He isn't carried, but it improves his numbers. He wouldn't have these totals if he was stuck playing with Perrault and Connor all year or Copp and Armia. Which is basically the quality of linemates that Matthews plays with.

But we fundamentally disagree. If you don't think replacing Hyman with someone who could finish would improve his numbers, then their really is no middleground. Hyman is shooting 6.8%, which is lower than Kunitz or Dupuis ever shot with the penguins. At 5v5 Hyman is shooting 5%. That is pretty low for a guy playing the minutes he does with an All-star center.

No once again I am not saying it would not improve his numbers, I just dont think it will improve them as much as you think it will (which is, to make them at least better than Laine's).

 

[93LEAFS]

No once again I am not saying it would not improve his numbers, I just dont think it will improve them as much as you think it will (which is, to make them at least better than Laine's).

You don't think it adds 4 to 5 points over a 55 game sample? That's basically what he'd need to have better numbers. The other question is, what do you think the opposite does to Laine's numbers? Which is an equal part of the equation. If Laine was put with 3rd liners of that quality, how much would it decrease his numbers. While a lot is fueled by variations in oiSH% which make Laine's splits look bigger than they are, I'd say it still would have a pretty big affect if he was asked to play with Perrault and Armia all year.

 

[Plural]

I was actually surprised to see that Matthews and Marner both have more PP points than Laine. Both Marner and Matthews have .6 ES PPG and Laine is at .69 ES PPG.

Not sure if it's even meaningful, just an observation.

 

[Asiantuntija]

He isn't carried, but it improves his numbers. He wouldn't have these totals if he was stuck playing with Perrault and Connor all year or Copp and Armia. Which is basically the quality of linemates that Matthews plays with.

But we fundamentally disagree. If you don't think replacing Hyman with someone who could finish would improve his numbers, then their really is no middleground. Hyman is shooting 6.8%, which is lower than Kunitz or Dupuis ever shot with the penguins. At 5v5 Hyman is shooting 5%. That is pretty low for a guy playing the minutes he does with an All-star center.

Maybe he shows hell of a chemistry in practice with Hyman and that's why coach likes to play them at same line. Anyway as i watch Matthews his style seems to be little bit hard to play with. Or at least take little bit time to find chemistry with him.

 

[BB88]

I guess it's now 4 more goals and he's the best 18y European rookie goal scorer?

 

[llwyd]

Well, I'm obviously biased but I think that Matthews has fulfilled a larger part of his potential than Laine. Matthews has played all his life in North America, he knows the small ice play instinctively, he's also almost a year older in an age when a year is a big thing. Laine is obviously a much more raw and unfinished as a player at this point - he's 18 and having his first season in the NHL, and his flaws at the moment are exactly the kind of flaws that more experience and strength can correct.

So, who knows, maybe Matthews will get the Calder but I am myself even more impressed by Laine who as a quite flawed 18 years old rookie from Europe is already at this level during his first season in the NHL.

 

[Gurilla]

Well, I'm obviously biased but I think that Matthews has fulfilled a larger part of his potential than Laine. Matthews has played all his life in North America, he knows the small ice play instinctively, he's also almost a year older in an age when a year is a big thing. Laine is obviously a much more raw and unfinished as a player at this point - he's 18 and having his first season in the NHL, and his flaws at the moment are exactly the kind of flaws that more experience and strength can correct.

So, who knows, maybe Matthews will get the Calder but I am myself even more impressed by Laine who as a quite flawed 18 years old rookie from Europe is already at this level during his first season in the NHL.

It's unbelievable his raw talent already eclipses many bonafide nhl players at just 18 years old.

 

[10Ducky10]

He isn't carried, but it improves his numbers. He wouldn't have these totals if he was stuck playing with Perrault and Connor all year or Copp and Armia. Which is basically the quality of linemates that Matthews plays with.

But we fundamentally disagree. If you don't think replacing Hyman with someone who could finish would improve his numbers, then their really is no middleground. Hyman is shooting 6.8%, which is lower than Kunitz or Dupuis ever shot with the penguins. At 5v5 Hyman is shooting 5%. That is pretty low for a guy playing the minutes he does with an All-star center.

Got 3 playing on a line with Copper tonight...

 

[93LEAFS]

Well, I'm obviously biased but I think that Matthews has fulfilled a larger part of his potential than Laine. Matthews has played all his life in North America, he knows the small ice play instinctively, he's also almost a year older in an age when a year is a big thing. Laine is obviously a much more raw and unfinished as a player at this point - he's 18 and having his first season in the NHL, and his flaws at the moment are exactly the kind of flaws that more experience and strength can correct.

So, who knows, maybe Matthews will get the Calder but I am myself even more impressed by Laine who as a very flawed 18 years old rookie from Europe is already at this level during his first season in the NHL.

Matthews development was far from conventional. Laine grew up in a hockey-mad culture. Matthews grew up in the desert, playing on tiny rinks. You would think being in a hockey culture with big youth academies would of given him better coaching at a younger age. This isn't some kid like McDavid or Tavares who grew up in the GTA with easy access to rinks and elite coaching.

The age thing is drastically overstated here. The studies that looked into it have shown the age gap doesn't matter at the top of the draft in career expectations of draft positions. It starts to appear around 5, and is noticeable in the teens, then levels off as a sizable gap around pick 46.

 

[SoupNazi]

New thread is up.