Calder Race 2016/2017 #6

[TimeZone]

Crazy thing is Marner might end up having the best offensive career out of all of them.

I mean, he's probably the most purely offensively gifted so I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Laine's underlying stats are insane. 3 hatricks, 47 points in just 51 games, 26 goals, and only 18 years of age. Right now he is the front runner for the Calder. Matthews is 2nd with werenski and Marner close.

...those aren't underlying stats.

 

[Bourdon101]

Except your point is that having Matthews with Marner for example wouldn't help his scoring. My argument is that it would improve his totals but it would probably drain the overall amount of goals the team scores. Since we are talking about individual production than that matter. But, then it leads to this question. Is a guy who can turn a line with two 3rd liners into a line that scores at a first line rate, more valuable than a guy who needs to play with a fellow elite player to score at that rate?

You are saying that is why Babcock does not put Marner there. I was rather saying Babcock doesnt put him there because Matthews meshes better with players who play a simple game. To be honest, it is probably a bit of both; Matthews meshes well with simple players and thus it allows him to split the scoring despite not having the depth to do it normally.

Which leads to what you just said in the second part of your post, and I agree with that (edit; after re-reading because of Plural's post, I agree its a valid argument but perhaps not to the degree you are taking it...) , but that isint the point we are arguing. You were saying Matthews would definetly have equal production to Laine if his linemate were as skilled as Laine.

But if he does gel with simple players as I infer from his usage and his coach above, that implies the inflation of scoring he would get by playing with linemates more skilled is lesser than you'd assume.

Predicting the effect on scoring of different linemates is a tricky thing.

 

[Festinator]

Crazy thing is Marner might end up having the best offensive career out of all of them.

He's still ridiculously underrated, I'll never understand why.

 

[Plural]

Isn't Matthews ability to turn a line consisting of Brown and Hyman into a first line quality line offensively, more valuable than the difference between Laine's production, with and without either Schiefele or Ehlers. He's saying linemates don't matter, I'm just illustrating the point.

You can't ignore their is a significant difference in Laine's splits.

Yada yada. You really think the way you framed the question was being even remotely unbiased?

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Again you seem to forget Laine has played 8 games less.

8 games with his PPG would put him clearly in the lead.

Not trying to be a dick because I quoted some false stats earlier, but Laine has played 4 less games than Matthews, not 8

 

[TorMapleJays]

I mean, he's probably the most purely offensively gifted so I wouldn't be surprised.

Who blocks shots

 

[93LEAFS]

Yada yada. You really think the way you framed the question was being even remotely unbiased?

It could have been more balanced. But, when someone is going on and on about how linemates don't matter, I felt that was worth pointing out. Laine's splits without Schiefele and Ehlers are massive. Without Schiefele he has 2 goals at 5v5 in over 300 mintues. Compared to 12 in just over 400 minutes. Yet, Zach Hyman doesn't impact Matthews numbers (especially assist numbers) in a negative way compared to the linemates Laine plays with.

What player do you honestly think is more valuable. The one producing at a similar rate regardless of linemates, or one who has drastic splits?

 

[Board Bard]

He's still ridiculously underrated, I'll never understand why.

I wouldn't kick Marner off my team for eating crackers in bed.

 

[elmaco]

Not trying to be a dick because I quoted some false stats earlier, but Laine has played 4 less games than Matthews, not 8

You're right, i meant to say that when the season ends Laine will have 8 games less (assuming nothing happens to either player).

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

He's still ridiculously underrated, I'll never understand why.

I think because no one saw him as potentially this good so he's not part of any draft feuds. Matthews and Laine dominate the media created feud narrative. McDavid is still the best player in his draft year so it doesn't generate headlines or drama.

 

[Bourdon101]

It could have been more balanced. But, when someone is going on and on about how linemates don't matter, I felt that was worth pointing out. Laine's splits without Schiefele and Ehlers are massive. Without Schiefele he has 2 goals at 5v5 in over 300 mintues. Compared to 12 in just over 400 minutes. Yet, Zach Hyman doesn't impact Matthews numbers (especially assist numbers) in a negative way compared to the linemates Laine plays with.

What player do you honestly think is more valuable. The one producing at a similar rate regardless of linemates, or one who has drastic splits?

Sorry but I have never said that linemates dont matter. This is a strawmen.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think because no one saw him as potentially this good so he's not part of any draft feuds. Matthews and Laine dominate the media created feud narrative. McDavid is still the best player in his draft year so it doesn't generate headlines or drama.

Marner won most of his fued's so they aren't currently being discussed. Most people comapred him to Strome and for whatever reasons Kyle Connor.

 

[93LEAFS]

Sorry but I have never said that linemates dont matter. This is a strawmen.

You said that having a 1st line caliber linemate wouldn't improve Matthews numbers. Which I believe is a highly questionable statement. You've claimed a guy like Hyman doesn't hurt Matthews numbers. So, you think they have an overall limited effect on Matthews ability to produce. Yet, you seem to ignore the disparity in Laine's numbers when this is brought up.

 

[oooooooooohCanada]

fyi calder voting is never done by points per game. For Laine to win it he'll need to win the scoring title.

Look at the year Landy won the Calder.

Landy = 52 pts in 82 games
RNH = 52 pts in 62 games

 

[Festinator]

I think because no one saw him as potentially this good so he's not part of any draft feuds. Matthews and Laine dominate the media created feud narrative. McDavid is still the best player in his draft year so it doesn't generate headlines or drama.

I suppose this could be it. They're all still rookies though, and considering he's putting up just as many points, and more at times, he shouldn't be forgotten about so easily. Crazy to see so much bickering over who should win the calder between Laine and Matthews and not see Marners name mentioned. (That being said, I hope Laine wins it )

 

[Roughneck1]

Come on Jets fans don't come here and make Laine look like king all of sudden. Hes got a long ways to go defensively. I hate that stuff. That's coming from a jets fan. I like debate but there's a case to be made about crapping on players as soon as your guy has a good game. I like to think we're better. Just my humble opinion. Thank you.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

It could have been more balanced. But, when someone is going on and on about how linemates don't matter, I felt that was worth pointing out. Laine's splits without Schiefele and Ehlers are massive. Without Schiefele he has 2 goals at 5v5 in over 300 mintues. Compared to 12 in just over 400 minutes. Yet, Zach Hyman doesn't impact Matthews numbers (especially assist numbers) in a negative way compared to the linemates Laine plays with.

What player do you honestly think is more valuable. The one producing at a similar rate regardless of linemates, or one who has drastic splits?

I don't think it's worth it at this point. Any professional scout/GM/coach in the league knows Matthews is easily the more valuable player. They'd all choose him over Laine in a heartbeat. Moreso than pre-draft. Bank it.

A quick thought experiment: Matthews spends the majority of the season playing with Scheifele and Ehlers, Laine spends his with Hyman and Brown. How do you think their totals up until now change? Be honest now kiddos.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

You are saying that is why Babcock does not put Marner there. I was rather saying Babcock doesnt put him there because Matthews meshes better with players who play a simple game. To be honest, it is probably a bit of both; Matthews meshes well with simple players and thus it allows him to split the scoring despite not having the depth to do it normally.

Which leads to what you just said in the second part of your post, and I agree with that, but that isint the point we are arguing. You were saying Matthews would definetly have equal production to Laine if his linemate were as skilled as Laine.

But if he does gel with simple players as I infer from his usage and his coach above, that implies the inflation of scoring he would get by playing with linemates more skilled is lesser than you'd assume.

Predicting the effect on scoring of different linemates is a tricky thing.

I think if Babcock thought that Matthews' linemates were optimal for Auston's production rate, he'd utilize them on the power play as well. Brown gets PP minutes here and there, but Auston has mostly played with Nylander, Kadri and Komarov on the PP this year.

It's definitely a "tricky" business trying to project chemistry, but you're coming from the perspective that Auston requires grinders to produce at high levels, I think it's more that Babcock realizes Hyman and Brown can be viable players even in the offensive end if they get to play with a centreman like Auston (which makes for offense spread out over the Leafs top 3 lines). FWIW Matthews has demonstrated he meshes well with both your stereotypical grinders, as well as high skill forwards (McDavid, Scheifele at the WC).

 

[TIGERCOOL]

fyi calder voting is never done by points per game. For Laine to win it he'll need to win the scoring title.

Look at the year Landy won the Calder.

Landy = 52 pts in 82 games
RNH = 52 pts in 62 games

And what a good call that turned out to be. Don't think anyone will be lining up to call RNH the more valuable of the two now. Victory for context!

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I suppose this could be it. They're all still rookies though, and considering he's putting up just as many points, and more at times, he shouldn't be forgotten about so easily. Crazy to see so much bickering over who should win the calder between Laine and Matthews and not see Marners name mentioned. (That being said, I hope Laine wins it )

Marner winning it would be hilarious, I'd be shocked if Matthews doesn't as long as he at least stays in the top 3 of rookie points.

Partly position, partly media and partly it's a great story for US southern hockey.

I do think Matthews is the better player and deserves it on merit alone but all those factors will also play a role.

 

[Morbo]

Scheifele has 53 points. Connor Brown and Zach Hyman have 47 combined.

 

[elmaco]

I don't think it's worth it at this point. Any professional scout/GM/coach in the league knows Matthews is easily the more valuable player. They'd all choose him over Laine in a heartbeat. Moreso than pre-draft. Bank it.

A quick thought experiment: Matthews spends the majority of the season playing with Scheifele and Ehlers, Laine spends his with Hyman and Brown. How do you think their totals up until now change? Be honest now kiddos.

That doesn't make sense since both Matthews and Scheifele are centers and no one of the other line would be a natural center.

 

[HarrisonFord]

Scheifele has 53 points. Connor Brown and Zach Hyman have 47 combined.

that is insane

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

That doesn't make sense since both Matthews and Scheifele are centers and no one of the other line would be a natural center.

Matthews could play wing for this experiment, he looked fantastic playing with McDavid.