Calder Race 2016/2017 #6

[lovemyleafs]

Scheifele has 53 points. Connor Brown and Zach Hyman have 47 combined.

Ehlers has 47 points.

 

[93LEAFS]

That doesn't make sense since both Matthews and Scheifele are centers and no one of the other line would be a natural center.

The first one isn't an issue. Matthews or Schiefele can easily play win (as they did playing on the same line). The second one is a massive problem, as Zach Hyman is probably the center (he does have experience there). But, if you want to make it easier, just find a center of Hyman's talent and plug him in.

 

[Bourdon101]

You said that having a 1st line caliber linemate wouldn't improve Matthews numbers. Which I believe is a highly questionable statement. You've claimed a guy like Hyman doesn't hurt Matthews numbers. So, you think they have an overall limited effect on Matthews ability to produce. Yet, you seem to ignore the disparity in Laine's numbers when this is brought up.

This is not what I was saying and also not saying that "linemates dont matter". You were the one saying having linemates of Laine's caliber would bring up Matthews scoring to Laine's pace. I said I doubt you can predict that because of how different players mesh with others. Me saying linemates dont matter would be saying that I think Matthews could play with ANYONE and produce, which I did not say. I said he was playing with players whose style was likely to compliment him well despite being less skilled.

And I dont ignore those arguments, I always give you the same answer; I dont think he is riding the coattails of Scheifele, they have good chemistry but that should not be held against a player.

Anyways I feel we have circled the subject enough and we are to the point of semantics. Lets just watch the race unfold.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

Matthews could play wing for this experiment, he looked fantastic playing with McDavid.

I was absolutely suggesting that Matthews plays the wing I this scenario, to further even the playing field

 

[Hobble]

The fact Laine has Maurice as coach should count as points in his favour. Has to excel despite his schtick

 

[The List Of Jericho]

I'm actually starting to hope Marner beats them both, that would really tick off Jets fans.

 

[goblin3]

Stats say Hyman and Brown greatly benefit Matthews: https://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=117&withagainst=true&season=2016-17&sit=5v5

On the other hand, Nylander for example, seems to bring him down.

 

[Ippenator]

Much appreciated thank you.

So if you look at Stafford's production during that stretch and then when he wasn't playing with Scheifele's line:

Playing with Schiefele: 6pts in 8gp
Playing without Scheifele: 6pts in 32gp

Do the similar change in any team that has a former top 6 player demoted as a bottom 6 player, and let that same player substitute for your injured star player in the top 6 lines, and you will most likely get very similar results. It is pretty much about what you want to emphasize here after all...

 

[93LEAFS]

Stats say Hyman and Brown greatly benefit Matthews: https://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=117&withagainst=true&season=2016-17&sit=5v5

On the other hand, Nylander for example, seems to bring him down.

You can't really draw any conclusions without Hyman. He is a permanent fixture on that line. Matthews hasn't played on one other line that has gotten over 50 minutes of ice-time but that pairing. To be honest, a fair amount of the disparity is fueled by the each lines oiSH%. With Nylander the line generated more chances but converted at a lower rate (when Matthews was individually shooting sub-10% and Nylander was moved off it) and was better possession wise. Laine's are somewhat skewed by the fact E-S-L was somehow shooting 18% at 5v5.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

I'm actually starting to hope Marner beats them both, that would really tick off Jets fans.

It would **** off pretty much everyone not in the Golden Horseshoe and not a Leaf fan.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Stats say Hyman and Brown greatly benefit Matthews: https://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=117&withagainst=true&season=2016-17&sit=5v5

On the other hand, Nylander for example, seems to bring him down.

He has a 56.3 CF% with Nylander and a 48.6 CF% with Brown so I disagree. He's been more consistently dangerous playing with Nylander, they've just been unlucky to not convert more chances.

 

[BB88]

Scheifele provided the feed in the neutral zone to set up the 2 on 1... And it was a tap in, not sure what the quatation marks are doing there

So no one else could make passes than Scheifele?

Laine gets carried by his linemates thing is getting a bit boring.

 

[TimeZone]

Ehlers has 47 points.

Yea but.

 

[93LEAFS]

So no one else could make passes than Scheifele?

Laine gets carried by his linemates thing is getting a bit boring.

He's not carried, but they absolutely help him produce at the rate he is producing. There is a clear disparity in his production with and with-out Schiefele over a reasonable sample size.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

So no one else could make passes than Scheifele?

Laine gets carried by his linemates thing is getting a bit boring.

He isn't carried by them, but they certainly boost his production a great deal. Mark Scheifele is top 10 league wide in points... he is the 6th highest scoring center. That's insane. He's really, really, really good, and being on his line is a tremendous benefit to any winger. He's also done it with a rotating cast of players all season long. His production without Laine actually slightly increased, for instance.

He's a stud. You guys are nuts to undersell him

 

[Bourdon101]

He's not carried, but they absolutely help him produce at the rate he is producing. There is a clear disparity in his production with and with-out Schiefele over a reasonable sample size.

So whats your point? If he is not carried, then whats the problem?

 

[Plural]

So whats your point? If he is not carried, then whats the problem?

I think it's clear what the point is.

 

[93LEAFS]

So whats your point? If he is not carried, then whats the problem?

That his linemates help him produce at a slightly better rate than Matthews. They aren't on equal footing in regards to who they get to play with. You really think if these players roles were reversed that Laine would be outproducing Matthews? You are the one who seems to be claiming that Matthews needs grinders to succeed.

The point is pretty clear. Matthews is the better and more valuable player this year.

 

[Bourdon101]

That his linemates help him produce at a slightly better rate than Matthews. They aren't on equal footing in regards to who they get to play with. You really think if these players roles were reversed that Laine would be outproducing Matthews? You are the one who seems to be claiming that Matthews needs grinders to succeed.

The point is pretty clear. Matthews is the better player.

Well there you have it... This is overly simple and convenient. I have a feeling bias is at play more than linemates in that last blub of honesty.

And I also wonder why Mike Babcock selected Chris Kunitz for his olympic team, and played him on the first line.

 

[Gurilla]

If Schiefele is to Laine as Backstrom is to Ovi I'll be a very happy man

 

[93LEAFS]

Well there you have it... This is overly simple and convenient. I have a feeling bias is at play more than linemates in that last blub of honesty.

And I also wonder why Mike Babcock selected Chris Kunitz for his olympic team, and played him on the first line.

A Habs fan who has focused on Laine being better than Matthews since the Leafs won the draft lottery, and no posts about either prior.... I'd have to question your bias on this. What in the 12 days post-lottery, made you so need to voice your opinion that Laine was better?

But, fine ignore the linemate argument. Think that playing with Hyman and Brown is equal to playing with Schiefele and Ehlers. Think Matthews can only excel with grinders.

Strategy for a short tournament with no-warm up games is drastically different than the approach you have with a regular season team. Obviously, you aim for short-term chemistry.

 

[Ippenator]

That his linemates help him produce at a slightly better rate than Matthews. They aren't on equal footing in regards to who they get to play with. You really think if these players roles were reversed that Laine would be outproducing Matthews? You are the one who seems to be claiming that Matthews needs grinders to succeed.

The point is pretty clear. Matthews is the better and more valuable player this year.

This is just pure hypothetical claims, and there is no team proof that things are really so. Although I do understand that the Leaf fans desperately want it to be so. They are so insecure about it, if after all the number 2 pick is or will be after all the best player in the draft. They much be quite even as players right now, although by many ways quite different. But I still seriously believe that Laine has so much more potential to develop physically than Matthews, that Laine will make a gap as a player to Matthews. Esoexially when he gerd more and more accustomed to the North American game and rinks. Matthews has had this season still physically and play style experience-wise a huge gap over Laine. This advantage will he already very much lost during next season. And after a couple of seasons later Laine will start really building the gap. This is my claim. But no use to argue about it now, as time will only tell...

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Well there you have it... This is overly simple and convenient. I have a feeling bias is at play more than linemates in that last blub of honesty.

And I also wonder why Mike Babcock selected Chris Kunitz for his olympic team, and played him on the first line.

Team Canada under Babcock has lost one game in the last two Olympics. Who cares if he selected Kunitz?

 

[Bourdon101]

A Habs fan who has focused on Laine being better than Matthews since the Leafs won the draft lottery, and no posts about either prior.... I'd have to question your bias on this.

But, fine ignore the linemate argument. Think that playing with Hyman and Brown is equal to playing with Schiefele and Ehlers. Think Matthews can only excel with grinders.

Strategy for a short tournament with no-warm up games is drastically different than the approach you have with a regular season team. Obviously, you aim for short-term chemistry. Also realize, Babcock took Kunitz off that line.

You know I have said nothing of what you imply I said? My point all along is that Matthews is perhaps not as dragged down by his linemates as you make him out to be. Linemates skill will not directly correlate to higher production, even if it seems evident at first. Thats why you simplify my argument and misrepresent it.

It is wierd to me above all that if Laine is not being carried or is not a product of his linemates, then why is that an argument against him?

I mean we can disagree all day long on how much Matthews would produce more with Ehlers on his wing, and nobody will ever know for sure, but you saying I "ignore" that argument, and think all "linemates are equal" is dishonest.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

This is just pure hypothetical claims, and there is no team proof that things are really so. Although I do understand that the Leaf fans desperately want it to be so. They are so insecure about it, if after all the number 2 pick is or will be after all the best player in the draft. They much be quite even as players right now, although by many ways quite different. But I still seriously believe that Laine has so much more potential to develop physically than Matthews, that Laine will make a gap as a player to Matthews. Esoexially when he gerd more and more accustomed to the North American game and rinks. Matthews has had this season still physically and play style experience-wise a huge gap over Laine. This advantage will he already very much lost during next season. And after a couple of seasons later Laine will start really building the gap. This is my claim. But no use to argue about it now, as time will only tell...

Laine is going to be amazing but when TSN polled the coaches of all the teams on the best rookie here's what they said.

Matthews 20
Laine 4
Werenski 1

It's pretty clear the coaches don't agree and they are a better judge then most of us.

Anyways they both are good but there is a reason Matthews went first, be glad we each get an amazing rookie.