C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part III

[VictorLustig]

In my opinion, to gauge a player's hockey IQ requires one to assess how well the player recognizes and reacts to situations and circumstances relative to others. It has less to do with skill and more to do with positioning, anticipation, and an intuition about where the player should be in order to be effective. Those who can identify and understand where to be and what to do on a more advanced level than their peers have higher-than-average IQ.

Competent recognition of defensive positioning is key at this level, as well as a comprehension of what options they may have on the ice. Ideal plays are effective but low-risk. A quick mind and ease of decision-making against junior-level competition are essential for a junior-aged player to be deemed a high-IQ player. They need to, in order words, see plays before other players can -- intuition.

An adequate understanding of how to pressure opponents and forecheck effectively is also important. There is more time and space at this level than at higher professional levels to make decisions, and smart players on the ice should be able to make effective, low-risk plays as well as put themselves in smart positions to succeed.

This is spot on.

 

[Whalers Fan]

That makes sense. Now that I look at their birth dates and the start of their U17 and U18 seasons, it becomes clear.

However, that also doesn't work in favor of Hughes, as it means that Jack is older than Keller and Matthews were in their corresponding U17 and U18 seasons. Jack has a May birth date; Keller has a July birth date; Matthews has a September birth date.

Hughes is the oldest of the three USNTDP prospects.

Hughes is 2 months older than Keller and 4 months older than Matthews during their respective NTDP seasons. Personally, I don't think it makes that much difference, especially since Matthews was a much bigger kid physically than Hughes.

My main point still stands that it makes a lot more sense to compare NTDP prospects based on their respective years in the program, not based on their respective draft years. Assuming players are evenly spread out by birth dates across the year, about 75% of NTDP participants will be eligible for the draft immediately upon leaving the program. However, we have a statistical anomaly where until now the best prospects from the program have all had late birthdays and had to find somewhere else to play for a year before being drafted - - Kane, Eichel, Matthews, Brady Tkachuk and Quinn Hughes all fall into this category. Jack Hughes is the first top of the list prospect with an earlier birthday. Keller was an early birthday, too, but I think Hughes is a much better prospect than Keller was coming out of the program.

 

[ijuka]

In my opinion, to gauge a player's hockey IQ requires one to assess how well the player recognizes and reacts to situations and circumstances relative to others. It has less to do with skill and more to do with positioning, anticipation, and an intuition about where the player should be in order to be effective. Those who can identify and understand where to be and what to do on a more advanced level than their peers have higher-than-average IQ.

Competent recognition of defensive positioning is key at this level, as well as a comprehension of what options they may have on the ice. Ideal plays are effective but low-risk. A quick mind and ease of decision-making against junior-level competition are essential for a junior-aged player to be deemed a high-IQ player. They need to, in order words, see plays before other players can -- intuition.

An adequate understanding of how to pressure opponents and forecheck effectively is also important. There is more time and space at this level than at higher professional levels to make decisions, and smart players on the ice should be able to make effective, low-risk plays as well as put themselves in smart positions to succeed.

Agreed. Whenever I see something like "he's a high IQ player because of that amazing pass" that makes me facepalm - IMO that's not what it's about at all. It's actually very refreshing to see you having an opinion so close to mine on this, I usually am very disappointed in what I read on scouting reports.

People are so strongly against you here but you really present your opinions in the most intelligent manner.

I also wish they'd understand that those video examples for instance are just demonstrations and examples, not some cherry picking of a situation where a player looks bad out of context(at least I believe so). It's a conclusion you draw from watching all the material, and then pick some points to demonstrate it - But that's not the same thing as saying "he has poor IQ because of this one specific play here".

That's sort of how it was with me and Puljujärvi. I would watch dozens of games and constantly come away with thinking that he was some serious decision-making issues, but it's very tough to demonstrate that with just single examples without making it seem like you're cherry picking bad examples. In the same manner, a player can blow your mind with their consistent decision-making, but if you actually demonstrate the examples, it's not that impressive. A person really just needs to watch tons of tape and also be able to comprehend what makes good hockey IQ and what does not. And indeed, it's not "he makes cool passes". Those could even demonstrate lower IQ, if they are risky when better choices are available.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

Here’s to debunking the myth that Hughes has “average” hockey sense, via prominent people across hockey’s draft spectrum:

BU Head Coach

It’s pretty hard,” O’Connell said of stopping Hughes. “He’s hard to contain. There’s only a few players with that sort of speed and mobility and hockey sense. He’s kind of the complete package. That’s probably why he’s maybe the number one selected player in the draft. He was dangerous every time he was out on the ice.”

NHL Notebook: In 17-year-old Jack Hughes, USA hockey has its next superstar in waiting | Boston Sports Journal

Gare Joyce, former NHL Scout
Dan Brown, Marlboros HC

He also processes the game faster — an errant pass in his skates is kicked up to his stick without breaking stride and the puck is wired to a teammate, all in a blink. As his former Marlboros coach Dan Brown notes: “The way he can use all his skills and his vision at top speed, it’s like the clock is ticking slower for him than everyone else.”

Why Jack Hughes could be the best USNTDP product ever – Sportsnet

USHL Scouting Director

“He’s tenacious,” the same USHL scout told SN. “And his instant recognition of the unfolding play means that you can keep him in check for most of a game, only to have him beat you at a critical moment. His talent and upside is in line with some of the best young players in the NHL.”

The hype about Jack Hughes: U.S. NTDP's latest star product has the NHL's attention | Sporting News

NHL Scout

"Jack is the most naturally gifted player I've seen for 2019," one NHL scout says. "He's got vision, hockey sense-just pure talent. It's like he can do whatever he wants to do out there."

Meet the Hughes brothers, America's future first family of hockey

Kris Draper, NHL AGM

“We’re talking about a special talent here,” said Kris Draper, assistant to Red Wings GM Ken Holland.

“Hockey sense, skating, competing, the way he sees the game, the vision that he has. It’s kind of the direction the new NHL is going, with the game of puck possession and speed and making plays at high speed.”

Dan Marr, head of NHL CSB

”In Hughes, you get the highly-skilled, offensively talented center who plays the game with speed, quickness, elite hockey sense and an ability to execute at top speed while making those around him better," Marr said.

Jack Hughes out for U.S. against Kakko, Finland at World Juniors

 

[TheDoldrums]

Hughes is 2 months older than Keller and 4 months older than Matthews during their respective NTDP seasons. Personally, I don't think it makes that much difference, especially since Matthews was a much bigger kid physically than Hughes.

Matthews is difficult to draw comparisons with given his non-traditional path imo. Being 4 months younger might not make a massive difference, but growing up playing in Arizona instead of Toronto would seem like a big disadvantage.

The zeal of some of these posts, while certainly very, very well planned and not without some kernels of truth - do make me root even harder for Hughes to end up being as special as think he can be. It’s one thing to stake out a contradictory position but this feels a bit much.

Have to agree with this. I have no strong opinion on Hughes but find myself rooting for him.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Want to preface this by saying I really like Jack Hughes and his game and I think he should go 1OA regardless. I think he can be an absolute gamebreaker for years to come.

That said, should he be in the NHL next year? I’m not certain of that.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Want to preface this by saying I really like Jack Hughes and his game and I think he should go 1OA regardless. I think he can be an absolute gamebreaker for years to come.

That said, should he be in the NHL next year? I’m not certain of that.

Why not?

Is he going to be made to work on the areas he struggles against players who can't check him?

It would be best for him to play in the NHL, and struggle with parts of the game that aren't putting up points. If thats at center, he'll struggle defensively. I doubt he'll be above 45% on face-offs, he'll be pushed around, he'll learn he can't double shift himself. These are important things he'll learn, and it might result in a very uneven season, despite the 50-60 points he'll score.

Its much better this than if he spends a season with the London Knights, and scores 150 points and skates circles around players who'll never play professional hockey.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Yeah, I agree with PB. I think worse case scenario is he plays in the NHL on the wing for a while.

 

[TatarTangle]

Why not?

Is he going to be made to work on the areas he struggles against players who can't check him?

It would be best for him to play in the NHL, and struggle with parts of the game that aren't putting up points. If thats at center, he'll struggle defensively. I doubt he'll be above 45% on face-offs, he'll be pushed around, he'll learn he can't double shift himself. These are important things he'll learn, and it might result in a very uneven season, despite the 50-60 points he'll score.

Its much better this than if he spends a season with the London Knights, and scores 150 points and skates circles around players who'll never play professional hockey.

Draper was just quoted as saying Hughes just got hit a ton against some shitty D1 college players. What makes you think he'll be able to elude NHL players? 82 games against men twice his size could be a recipe for disaster if him getting hit a ton is a regular occurence, granted that's not entirely predictable. I don't think he's as NHL ready as many believe, but that's just IMO

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Draper was just quoted as saying Hughes just got hit a ton against some ****ty D1 college players. What makes you think he'll be able to elude NHL players? 82 games against men twice his size could be a recipe for disaster if him getting hit a ton is a regular occurence, granted that's not entirely predictable. I don't think he's as NHL ready as many believe, but that's just IMO

I don’t care what Draper says. I don’t even know where he works. I think Hughes won’t benefit much from playing in anything other than a league where he can’t overmatch every player every shift with speed and skill. He needs to play in a league where the players can match him in those areas, which will force him to improve the rest of his game. He wouldn’t be the first slight player to play in the NHL.

 

[TatarTangle]

I don’t care what Draper says. I don’t even know where he works. I think Hughes won’t benefit much from playing in anything other than a league where he can’t overmatch every player every shift with speed and skill. He needs to play in a league where the players can match him in those areas, which will force him to improve the rest of his game. He wouldn’t be the first slight player to play in the NHL.

I agree with you i.e. a firm believer that you only get better playing against people better than you. I just think it's shortsighted to be not curious about Hughes current ability, or inability, to elude players if he got pushed around in WJC and against some kids playing hockey at Bowling Green and what that would mean in terms of potential injuries during an 82 NHL game schedule in which he won't be a big fish in a small pond anymore.

Draper just asked how many games you played in the NHL

Have a good day.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Here’s to debunking the myth that Hughes has “average” hockey sense, via prominent people across hockey’s draft spectrum:

BU Head Coach

NHL Notebook: In 17-year-old Jack Hughes, USA hockey has its next superstar in waiting | Boston Sports Journal

Gare Joyce, former NHL Scout
Dan Brown, Marlboros HC

Why Jack Hughes could be the best USNTDP product ever – Sportsnet

USHL Scouting Director

The hype about Jack Hughes: U.S. NTDP's latest star product has the NHL's attention | Sporting News

NHL Scout

Meet the Hughes brothers, America's future first family of hockey

Kris Draper, NHL AGM

Dan Marr, head of NHL CSB

Jack Hughes out for U.S. against Kakko, Finland at World Juniors

You haven't debunked anything. The most obvious counterpoint is on Page 2 of this thread.

What you have done, however, is prove that there are antiquated interpretations of hockey IQ. As @ijuka has stated, some players are misidentified as high-IQ players because they can lay a tape-to-tape pass on a teammate's stick -- that is not hockey IQ; that is simply a matter of puck skills., which should have lower priority than hockey IQ.

In your Nail Yakupov retrospective a few months ago, you even mentioned scouts getting it wrong on a universal level:

Steve Kournianos - Sporting News - The truth about Nail Yakupov, an imperfect prospect set up to bust

Was Yakupov the wrong choice at No. 1 overall?

At the time of the 2012 draft, Yakupov was an elite prospect with a stranglehold on the top of all draft rankings, including being named the top North American prospect by NHL Central Scouting. Eight of the NHL scouts polled annually by TSN hockey insider Bob McKenzie had Yakupov as the top pick, and practically all of the notable sources held the exact same view.

Why question their assessments? Yakupov was a standout for the OHL’s Sarnia Sting, winning the league rookie of the year and placing among the top scorers in the two seasons leading up to the draft. He also proved himself at the international level, leading the 2011 under-18 world championships in points and tying for the most assists at the 2012 under-20 world junior championship. So in terms of a pre-draft resume, Yakupov’s certainly was befitting a prospect considered a candidate for the top pick. And although he was never viewed as a “generational” talent, none of the public scouting reports available at the time considered him a low-IQ player or one who would struggle mightily to land a permanent top-six job in the NHL.

Craig Button on 2012 Final TSN Draft Ranking: 1-10

1. Nail Yakupov

TSN Scout Craig Button: Nail is arguably the best skater in the 2012 draft. It's a blend of speed, power, quickness and agility that threatens and creates opportunities in the blink of an eye. He goes as fast as is necessary; seemingly just far enough ahead that creates desperation in opponents. His mind quickness and IQ is another weapon in his arsenal and he quickly sizes up opportunities for exploitation. He can play at high speed and his hands keep up and with an accurate shot which creates challenges for goaltenders. Excellent sense and can make plays that make him very challenging to keep in check. He competes and is not a one dimensional player and is not averse to initiating physical play. He found ways to be productive for his team despite being closely checked this past season and without his talented team mate Alex Galchenyuk. A blend of skill and desire with a star quality that should make him exciting to watch in the years ahead.

Hockey's Future - Nail Yakupov

Talent Analysis

Yakupov is a pure goal-scorer with great hands, quick feet, and great natural hockey sense. Prior to his NHL debut here was concern about Yakupov’s ability as a playmaker and being more of a pure finisher than someone who involves his linemates, but he proved to be a solid team player who adjusted well to the NHL atmosphere. Although not overly big at 5'11 and sometimes prone to injury, Yakupov showed no signs of struggle in his big league debut.

Shawn Reznik - The Hockey Writers - Final Top 60 NHL Prospect Rankings for 2012 Draft

1. Nail Yakupov – Forward – Sarnia Sting – OHL

Yakupov is (and has been) the clear cut number 1 all season for me. He has game-breaking potential, great puck skills, physicality, speed, vision, the list just goes on and on. The Sting fell early in the playoffs and Yakupov sustaining an injury before season’s end certainly didn’t help. But it is hard to argue that anyone is better than Nail in this draft.

OHL Official Website - Five OHL Players to Watch: NHL Entry Draft – Ontario Hockey League

Yakupov scored 31 goals and 38 assists for 69 points in just 42 games after claiming OHL and CHL Rookie of the Year honours with a 101-point season a year ago breaking Steven Stamkos’ rookie records with the Sting set back in 2006. The Russian native also competed in the World Junior Championship earning a silver medal for his country.

Sting Head GM and Head Coach Jacques Beaulieu says: “Nail is one of the most offensively skilled players I have ever coached. He is a game breaker who will bring the crowd out of their seat at any given time.”

Yakupov could follow in the footsteps of Stamkos who was selected first overall in the 2008 NHL Entry Draft and would become the sixth straight CHL player chosen first overall.

SB Nation Staff - NHL Draft 2012: Edmonton Oilers Select Nail Yakupov With No. 1 Pick

Yakupov is known as a great skater, and was noted by TSN's Craig Button as the best in the 2012 draft. He's also been noted to have a high hockey IQ and is a solid playmaker. Some wonder if he has a reckless style that could make him injury prone throughout his career, but there's no question that Yakupov has the potential -- as much as anyone in this year's draft class -- to become a star in the NHL.

SB Nation Staff - Nail Yakupov 2012 NHL Draft Prospect Profile

Scouting Report (Mid Term Rankings)

‘The 18-year-old Russian is the biggest game-breaker in this draft and plays a very similar style to Taylor Hall only with more physicality away from the puck. Yakupov is a phenomenal skater and his ability to use his speed while creating offense is unparalleled in this draft class. Projecting as a dynamic top-line forward, the only real concern with Yakupov lies in his stature and determining whether or not his body will be able to hold up with his style of play at the next level.'​

The Prospect Blog

‘His best asset is his mobility and acceleration. He has an extremely strong lower body, specifically his legs. He uses his legs to generate top end speed and mobility. He has the ability to turn on a dime, as he takes very hard and aggressive edges. He is one of the most elusive one on one players in the age group, and has the ability to go wide on almost every defenceman in the OHL. He has extremely strong vision and puck skills, and is at his best skating the puck into the offensive zone and making an intelligent read of the ice.'
‘Throughout the season he was the target of aggressive physical play and line matching, and at times it looks as though it can be a bit much for him. Sometimes it looks as though he can take shifts off. Another area of concern is his health and his ability to avoid injury.'​

The Scouting Bureau

‘Nail Yakupov is an extremely elusive hockey player to the fact where comparing him to Detroit Red Wing forward Pavel Datsyuk should gather no qualms. Why is Yakupov so elusive and evasive? First, Yakupov's strong skating stride delivers quick acceleration and top end speed to swiftly separate himself from defenders. In addition, Nail has the ability to quickly change speed (especially when in high gear) that makes him almost impossible to lineup for the "big hit". Add in the ability to spin, cut and deke on the fly and Yakupov's arsenal is fully equipped with skills that gives defensemen nightmares around the league. ‘​

Obviously, not everyone has the same interpretation of hockey IQ, however, as in recent months some scouts have gone on record saying they questioned his hockey IQ.

Mark Spector - How the Oilers got it wrong from the start with Yakupov - Sportsnet.ca

How the Oilers got it wrong from the start with Yakupov
Mark Spector @sportsnetspec March 28, 2016, 10:36 AM
...

“It’s so obvious now,” said a scout, who had cautioned against Yakupov’s hockey sense and foot speed. “Watch him away from the puck — he still doesn’t know where to go. His feet are moving 100 miles an hour, his stick is beating the hell out of the puck, and he doesn’t have a clue where he’s going and what he’s going to do with it.”

The same thing happened with Jesse Puljujarvi -- the general opinion of the time was that he had high hockey IQ.

Corey Pronman:

Corey Pronman - Top 100 prospects for the 2016 NHL draft

Puljujarvi is one of the most exciting prospects Finland has produced. He's a big, explosive winger, who was the second-highest scoring 17-year-old ever at the WJC, tied with Eric Lindros and a point behind Jaromir Jagr. He's an unbelievable skater for a 6-foot-4 player, having a great top gear and a really fluid stride. He's not that physically aggressive, but he closes on guys so well that he pressures and wins battles effectively. Puljujarvi shows a high-skill level, a plus shot and high-end hockey IQ. He is constantly around the puck and setting up his teammates.
He's not quite defensively sound yet, but he shows effort in that area, and with proper development, we could see that area of his game grow. To get an idea of what a competitor he is, a few hours before the gold medal game at the IIHF under-18 world championship, Puljujarvi was sick in bed. He then went out and carried his team to a championship, scoring a hat trick. (thanks to Twitter user Tuomo Vartianen for pointing this out). At his ultimate upside, he could be one of the more dynamic scorers in the NHL.

Philip Alver - SB Nation - A Quick Look at Jesse Puljujärvi

What might an NHL team see in Jesse Puljujärvi's game to select him over Patrik Laine?

An NHL team could see Jesse's strong hockey IQ. He was always in the right spot during the Worlds. In addition, his shot is strong and Jesse is fairly responsible in his own end as well.

The general consensus is that both Laine and Auston Matthews are NHL-ready. Would you say the same for Puljujärvi?

I think that Jesse will be NHL-ready this season. He is gifted offensively but could use more time to gain some strength and be a complete player. How he develops this summer with the Jackets will be a key determinant of where he plays. Offensively he is great, defensively he may need a month at Lake Erie to adjust to the North American game. Jesse will play in the NHL this year.

Patrik Bexell - SB Nation - 2016 Draft profile: Jesse Puljujärvi could be a number one pick in a different draft year

ISS

Played for SM-Liiga powerhouse offense in Karpat and has developed his way into a core member of their offense. Was MVP and dominant at times at U18 and finished the tournament with a hat trick, as Finland beat Sweden 6-1 to win the gold medal. Forces opposition players to respect his shot, which is elite, and can create plays because of this. Big and strong with a long reach and he just shrugs guys off. Always seems to have good body position whether protecting the puck or defending. Has a powerful skating stride and has another gear when needed - responsible in all three zones - soft quick hands and a heavy shot. Reads the play well and plays well away from the puck. Has excellent hockey sense. Character guy with all the attributes to be a top end player in the NHL - Showed superstar potential.​

The scouting reports of that time all tout Puljujarvi's hockey IQ, although Future Considerations noted some tendencies that I find similar to what Hughes does.

Puljujarvi was not particularly effective in Liiga, where he played alongside the line-driving Sebastian Aho.

2016 Draft profile: Jesse Puljujärvi could be a number one pick in a different draft year

Future Considerations
...

His acceleration is spectacular for someone his size, allowing him to get the quick jump once he recognizes a spot to where he needs to get. Despite being noted as a scorer, we think he is just as proficient as a set-up guy. Puljujarvi keeps his feet moving and remains patient until he is content with the development of the play before passing the puck. His vision is near the top of this class and he is able to lay out situational passes of each unique scenario.

He is constantly moving his feet and never remains flat-footed, always looking for an open area of the ice where he can pick up the play. While he pitches in and plays on the boards, Puljujarvi has a noticeable style of circling a scrum and preparing himself to pick up a puck and carry the play to open ice.

Puljujarvi played passively along the boards, noted FC. This is more accurate than other assessments about his ability to pressure the opposition. He plays in open ice.

Ben Kerr - Last Word On Sports - Jesse Puljujarvi Scouting Report: 2016 NHL Draft #3

Puljujarvi though can do it all, also playing the role of play-maker off the wing just as well. He has excellent vision and the ability to thread tape-to-tape passes through the tightest of openings. Puljujarvi has excellent hockey sense, making smart plays both with and without the puck and finding openings in the opposing defence get his shot off.

Interpretations of hockey IQ need to evolve from the predominantly antiquated notions that define what people look for.

The same thing happened with Curtis Lazar:

From an article about Lazar by Ryan Kennedy of The Hockey News:

Ryan Kennedy - The Hockey News - Curtis Lazar

He still wants to work on the defensive aspects of his game, but those who evaluate talent in the WHL can’t wait to see what Lazar does over the course of a full season.

“He has blazing speed, high hockey IQ and a thick frame,” said one scout. “He’s hard to knock off the puck.”

To really emphasize this point, there were even people who believed that Owen Tippet had high hockey IQ, Corey Pronman among them:

J.D. Burke - Canucks Army - Nation Network 2017 Prospect Profile: #13 – Owen Tippett

From ESPN’s Corey Pronman:

The cousin of the No. 33 overall pick in 2015, Mitchell Stephens (Tampa Bay Lightning), Tippett is a very exciting winger to watch. He was a dominant goal scorer this season, due to both the quality and quantity of shots on goal. Tippett is one of the best speedsters in the draft class. His ability to go from 0 to 60 — metaphorically speaking, though he’s darn quick — is very impressive, and he can gain the offensive blue line with ease. He has a high skill level and can make some open-ice plays, but he’s much more comfortable going north-south than east-west. He can kill penalties due to his speed and IQ, and can be a shorthanded scoring threat while doing so. Tippett’s game is more about playing in straight lines, but don’t let his very tilted goal-to-assist ratio fool you, as he can make plays to his teammates too, a facet of his game that improved as the season went on.​

Lukas Weese - Last Word On Sports - Mississauga Steelheads Offence Comes Alive Against Erie and Kingston

Against the Kingston Frontenacs, Tippett added another assist. He utilized his size of 6-foot-2, 204 pounds to win battles along the boards and set up his teammates for scoring opportunities. The strategy of coach Richmond was clear; give Tippett minutes so he can showcase his speed and high hockey IQ.

Kyle Medeiros - SB Nation - 2017 NHL Draft prospect profile: Owen Tippett is a pure goal-scorer

In the mould of other top goal-scorers, Tippett watches where the puck carrier is and uses his offensive IQ to find open space and a passing lane to receive a puck, and release.

There were even some who thought that Valeri Nichushkin had high hockey IQ:

Andy Hughes - The PensNation - 20 Prospects in 20 Days: Valeri Nichushkin

Corey Pronman had this to say about Nichushkin: “Nichushkin is an impressive power forward who has a ton of natural gifts. He could be a potential star, if not an elite power winger in the NHL. His best skill is his skating ability, as he is a true plus-plus skater that defensemen need to respect when he’s barreling down the wing. If a gap gets too tight, Nichushkin will likely be behind the defender in no time. He is also a strong, 6’4” pillar who loves to drive to the net. Combining that with his speed and skill, he draws a lot of penalties.

Nichushkin’s north-south game is his strength, but he has a high level of ability with the puck, with the capability to make players miss. He can make plays to his teammates, and he has good offensive instincts, although his hockey sense is an area of division among scouts. Some question his vision, feeling he can be a little selfish. Others think his hockey sense is above average. He has the ability to skate through an entire team, so it cannot be considered surprising that he tries to do a lot. One area of concern: he needs to improve his defensive play.”

One common attribute between Yakupov, Puljujarvi, Lazar, Tippett and Nichushkin is that they are all quick skaters -- an element that could potentially disguise a player's lack of hockey IQ at lower levels, as the mere optics of a player zipping around all over the place may be mistaken for positional awareness. The game is also much more open at lower levels with a field of competition that lacks anywhere near the foundational defensive structure of higher levels, allowing sheer speed and skill to become a more prominent factor in the generation of offense.

Your posting of several quotations from the scouting community doesn't prove that Jack has high IQ -- in fact, it proves that there needs to be more scrutiny and different guidelines with regards to the assessment of hockey IQ in players.

In this post, we have four examples of players who were misidentified as high-IQ players. While the majority were not fooled by Tippett -- only Pronman and a few others -- and opinions were mixed about Nichushkin, the community was very wrong about Yakupov, Puljujarvi, and Lazar.

Instead of deferring to other opinions, I want to know what you look for when you determine a player's hockey IQ.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

You haven't debunked anything. The most obvious counterpoint is on Page 2 of this thread.

What you have done, however, is prove that there are antiquated interpretations of hockey IQ. As @ijuka has stated, some players are misidentified as high-IQ players because they can lay a tape-to-tape pass on a teammate's stick -- that is not hockey IQ; that is simply a matter of puck skills., which should have lower priority than hockey IQ.

In your Nail Yakupov retrospective a few months ago, you even mentioned scouts getting it wrong on a universal level:

The truth about Nail Yakupov, an imperfect prospect set up to bust

2012 Final TSN Draft Ranking: 1-10

Hockey's Future - Nail Yakupov

Final Top 60 NHL Prospect Rankings for 2012 Draft

Five OHL Players to Watch: NHL Entry Draft – Ontario Hockey League
NHL Draft 2012: Edmonton Oilers Select Nail Yakupov With No. 1 Pick

Nail Yakupov 2012 NHL Draft Prospect Profile



Obviously, not everyone has the same interpretation of hockey IQ, however, as in recent months some scouts have gone on record saying they questioned his hockey IQ.

How the Oilers got it wrong from the start with Yakupov - Sportsnet.ca

The same thing happened with Jesse Puljujarvi -- the general opinion of the time was that he had high hockey IQ.

Corey Pronman:

Top 100 prospects for the 2016 NHL draft

A Quick Look at Jesse Puljujärvi


2016 Draft profile: Jesse Puljujärvi could be a number one pick in a different draft year

The scouting reports of that time all tout Puljujarvi's hockey IQ, although Future Considerations noted some tendencies that I find similar to what Hughes does.

Puljujarvi was not particularly effective in Liiga, where he played alongside the line-driving Sebastian Aho.

2016 Draft profile: Jesse Puljujärvi could be a number one pick in a different draft year

Puljujarvi played passively along the boards, noted FC. This is more accurate than other assessments about his ability to pressure the opposition. He plays in open ice.

Jesse Puljujarvi Scouting Report: 2016 NHL Draft #3

Interpretations of hockey IQ need to evolve from the predominantly antiquated notions that define what people look for.

The same thing happened with Curtis Lazar:

From an article about Lazar by Ryan Kennedy of The Hockey News:

Curtis Lazar - The Hockey News

To really emphasize this point, there were even people who believed that Owen Tippet had high hockey IQ, Corey Pronman among them:

Nation Network 2017 Prospect Profile: #13 – Owen Tippett

Mississauga Steelheads Offence Comes Alive Against Erie and Kingston

2017 NHL Draft prospect profile: Owen Tippett is a pure goal-scorer

One common attribute between Yakupov, Puljujarvi, Lazar, and Tippett is that they are all quick skaters -- an element that could potentially disguise a player's lack of hockey IQ at lower levels, as the mere optics of a player zipping around all over the place may be mistaken for positional awareness. The game is also much more open at lower levels with a field of competition that lacks anywhere near the foundational defensive structure of higher levels, allowing sheer speed and skill to become a more prominent factor in the generation of offense.

Your posting of several quotations from the scouting community doesn't prove that Jack has high IQ -- in fact, it proves that there needs to be more scrutiny and different guidelines with regards to the assessment of hockey IQ in players.

In this post, we have four examples of players who were misidentified as high-IQ players. While the majority were not fooled by Tippett -- only Pronman and a few others --, the community was very wrong about Yakupov, Puljujarvi, and Lazar.

Instead of deferring to other opinions, I want to know what you look for when you determine a player's hockey IQ.

Thanks to the benefit of hindsight, you are cherrypicking draft-year scouting reports of the bust exceptions. While you’re at it, why not add Daigle and Stefan? Neil Brady and Dave Chyzowski?

Of course, quoting scouting reports of Steve Yzerman or Pat Lafontaind or Mike Modano or Pierre Turgeon or Matt Tkachuk or Alex DeBrincat or Pettersson or Keller or Barzal only hurts your argument, so why not brush them under the rug, right?

Where are your scouting reports from 2012? Or 2016? Or 2018?

I have disagreed with scouts and coaches before, but with Hughes and hockey IQ, I’ll have to agree with the collective assessment of current hockey minds over an incredibly small fan-based minority who disagree.

 

[FireBird71]

You haven't debunked anything. The most obvious counterpoint is on Page 2 of this thread.

What you have done, however, is prove that there are antiquated interpretations of hockey IQ. As @ijuka has stated, some players are misidentified as high-IQ players because they can lay a tape-to-tape pass on a teammate's stick -- that is not hockey IQ; that is simply a matter of puck skills., which should have lower priority than hockey IQ.

In your Nail Yakupov retrospective a few months ago, you even mentioned scouts getting it wrong on a universal level:

Steve Kournianos - Sporting News - The truth about Nail Yakupov, an imperfect prospect set up to bust

Craig Button on 2012 Final TSN Draft Ranking: 1-10

Hockey's Future - Nail Yakupov

Shawn Reznik - The Hockey Writers - Final Top 60 NHL Prospect Rankings for 2012 Draft

OHL Official Website - Five OHL Players to Watch: NHL Entry Draft – Ontario Hockey League

SB Nation Staff - NHL Draft 2012: Edmonton Oilers Select Nail Yakupov With No. 1 Pick

SB Nation Staff - Nail Yakupov 2012 NHL Draft Prospect Profile



Obviously, not everyone has the same interpretation of hockey IQ, however, as in recent months some scouts have gone on record saying they questioned his hockey IQ.

Mark Spector - How the Oilers got it wrong from the start with Yakupov - Sportsnet.ca

The same thing happened with Jesse Puljujarvi -- the general opinion of the time was that he had high hockey IQ.

Corey Pronman:

Corey Pronman - Top 100 prospects for the 2016 NHL draft

Philip Alver - SB Nation - A Quick Look at Jesse Puljujärvi

Patrik Bexell - SB Nation - 2016 Draft profile: Jesse Puljujärvi could be a number one pick in a different draft year

The scouting reports of that time all tout Puljujarvi's hockey IQ, although Future Considerations noted some tendencies that I find similar to what Hughes does.

Puljujarvi was not particularly effective in Liiga, where he played alongside the line-driving Sebastian Aho.

2016 Draft profile: Jesse Puljujärvi could be a number one pick in a different draft year

Puljujarvi played passively along the boards, noted FC. This is more accurate than other assessments about his ability to pressure the opposition. He plays in open ice.

Ben Kerr - Last Word On Sports - Jesse Puljujarvi Scouting Report: 2016 NHL Draft #3

Interpretations of hockey IQ need to evolve from the predominantly antiquated notions that define what people look for.

The same thing happened with Curtis Lazar:

From an article about Lazar by Ryan Kennedy of The Hockey News:

Ryan Kennedy - The Hockey News - Curtis Lazar

To really emphasize this point, there were even people who believed that Owen Tippet had high hockey IQ, Corey Pronman among them:

J.D. Burke - Canucks Army - Nation Network 2017 Prospect Profile: #13 – Owen Tippett

Lukas Weese - Last Word On Sports - Mississauga Steelheads Offence Comes Alive Against Erie and Kingston

Kyle Medeiros - SB Nation - 2017 NHL Draft prospect profile: Owen Tippett is a pure goal-scorer

One common attribute between Yakupov, Puljujarvi, Lazar, and Tippett is that they are all quick skaters -- an element that could potentially disguise a player's lack of hockey IQ at lower levels, as the mere optics of a player zipping around all over the place may be mistaken for positional awareness. The game is also much more open at lower levels with a field of competition that lacks anywhere near the foundational defensive structure of higher levels, allowing sheer speed and skill to become a more prominent factor in the generation of offense.

Your posting of several quotations from the scouting community doesn't prove that Jack has high IQ -- in fact, it proves that there needs to be more scrutiny and different guidelines with regards to the assessment of hockey IQ in players.

In this post, we have four examples of players who were misidentified as high-IQ players. While the majority were not fooled by Tippett -- only Pronman and a few others --, the community was very wrong about Yakupov, Puljujarvi, and Lazar.

Instead of deferring to other opinions, I want to know what you look for when you determine a player's hockey IQ.

Holy Novel...

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Thanks to the benefit of hindsight, you are cherrypicking draft-year scouting reports of the bust exceptions. While you’re at it, why not add Daigle and Stefan? Neil Brady and Dave Chyzowski?

Of course, quoting scouting reports of Steve Yzerman or Pat Lafontaind or Mike Modano or Pierre Turgeon or Matt Tkachuk or Alex DeBrincat or Pettersson or Keller or Barzal only hurts your argument, so why not brush them under the rug, right?

Where are your scouting reports from 2012? Or 2016? Or 2018?

I have disagreed with scouts and coaches before, but with Hughes and hockey IQ, I’ll have to agree with the collective assessment of current hockey minds over an incredibly small fan-based minority who disagree.

The post provides a counterpoint to your previous post: I illustrate that to cite a few opinions does not prove that a player has high IQ -- that is another fallacious argument that you have used.

You have the choice of subscribing to those opinions, but to declare that you have "debunked" anything is a total misunderstanding of the effect of your post. Your argument is not sound at all, and an alternative conclusion based on the quotations you have provided is that some interpretations of hockey IQ remain antiquated. You must realize that my rebuttal is not intended to prove any statement about Hughes' IQ, but to disprove your citation of his endorsements as a sound means of supporting your argument.

I would like to know your method of interpreting hockey IQ, as I have outlined my own on the previous page:

C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part III - Post #150 - Blade Paradigm's Interpretation of Hockey IQ

 

[Rabid Ranger]

"Your argument is not sound at all, and an alternative conclusion based on the quotations you have provided is that some interpretations of hockey IQ remain antiquated"

What you really mean is everyone's interpretation other than your own-right?

What an egomaniac. I find it hilarious you are digging to the bottom of the Mariana Trench to make inane player comparisons but choose to not only ignore but ridicule industry experts who speak positively about Hughes as a prospect. This might be the biggest joke thread I can remember and that's saying something on this site.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The post provides a counterpoint to your previous post: I illustrate that to cite a few opinions does not prove that a player has high IQ -- that is another fallacious argument that you have used.

You have the choice of subscribing to those opinions, but to declare that you have "debunked" anything is a total misunderstanding of the effect of your post. Your argument is not sound at all, and an alternative conclusion based on the quotations you have provided is that some interpretations of hockey IQ remain antiquated. You must realize that my rebuttal is not intended to prove any statement about Hughes' IQ, but to disprove your citation of his endorsements as a sound means of supporting your argument.

I would like to know your method of interpreting hockey IQ, as I have outlined my own on the previous page:

C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part III - Post #150 - Blade Paradigm's Interpretation of Hockey IQ

In your anti-Hughes video, you interpret mandated chip-and chases from the bench as low IQ plays — the complete opposite of the safest, surest play coaches expect. Losing a puck battle or 50/50 after anticipating puck direction is not a low IQ play. Ironically, several of the videos show Hughes supporting and covering up in the defensive zone and going defense to offense.

Hockey IQ IMO encompasses several things. Pivoting off pressure back or front, reads and step-ups, changing speeds on zone entries, vision, creativity, shots intended for rebounds, discipline, attacking openings.

Hughes checks all those blocks, and there are a heck of a lot more videos out there to prove it. If you think everyone’s view is ”antiquated” so be it.

 

[The Burning GOAT]

Whether it is Kakko or Hughes 1st overall, I don’t really care, but it’s impossible to deny the fact that Blade Paradigm presents their arguments clearly, distinctly and respectfully with great insight. You have my respect!

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Plz don't compare Hughes to Henrik Sedin.

Hughes is the next Kane/Gaudreau/Marner type. Henrik is totally different than all of them. A generational playmaker who had 3 goals & 50 points in his final season. Hughes is much more dynamic. Stylistically not comparable at all.

Hughes is a smaller player & will likely have to start out as a winger, yes. But Gaudreau didn't even make the World Junior team in his D+1, now hes a top hart candidate. Hughes is a dynamic talent, will be a fine 1st OV pick.

 

[Saekk]

Whether it is Kakko or Hughes 1st overall, I don’t really care, but it’s impossible to deny the fact that Blade Paradigm presents their arguments clearly, distinctly and respectfully with great insight. You have my respect!

Yeah and then he gets attacked by a horde of fanboys, typical HFBoards.

 

[The Burning GOAT]

Yeah and then he gets attacked by a horde of fanboys, typical HFBoards.

Without taking sides here on the whole Hughes vs Kakko debate, the conversation here could use more on-topic arguments instead of attempts to discredit posters’ possible agenda. That’s always next level interpretation and difficult to base on solid facts.

I do enjoy when players’ attributes, in good or bad, skills and aspects of hockey in general are debated.

 

[Steve Kournianos]

The pro-Hughes side doesn’t try to marginalize Kakko’s skills and accomplishments with cherrypicked stats or knee-jerk critiques on hand-picked shifts, grossly misleading video or lazy takes using hindsight, then jumping to a new shortcoming after the older ones get debunked.

The OP is trying to twist the narrative by holding Hughes to a higher standard than say Kakko or Cozens. Where are his legthy critiques of Dahlin? Kakko? If there is a higher standard for a No. 1 pick, and Kakko is his No. 1 pick, then where is his “objective” Kakko critique? Are we to believe Kakko doesn’t turn pucks over? Lose puck battles? Fail to support in the defensive zone? The OP sure wants you to think that.

I don’t mind the contrarian view. It makes for good debate. And he makes a few valid points that the pro-Hughes side acknowledges (size, puck hogging).

But color me unimpressed with someone who quotes fan bloggers (including myself) while concurrently using hindsight examples like Yakupov and Lazar to discredit the collective opinions of the accredited hockey community.

He quotes Stubb who praises Kakko over Hughes, then discredits Marr — Stubb’s boss — by calling his Hughes praises “antiquated”.

I hope Jack goes to Vancouver to play for the OP’s Canucks.

 

[FinnishSniper]

The pro-Hughes side doesn’t try to marginalize Kakko’s skills and accomplishments with cherrypicked stats or knee-jerk critiques on hand-picked shifts, grossly misleading video or lazy takes using hindsight, then jumping to a new shortcoming after the older ones get debunked.

The OP is trying to twist the narrative by holding Hughes to a higher standard than say Kakko or Cozens. Where are his legthy critiques of Dahlin? Kakko? If there is a higher standard for a No. 1 pick, and Kakko is his No. 1 pick, then where is his “objective” Kakko critique? Are we to believe Kakko doesn’t turn pucks over? Lose puck battles? Fail to support in the defensive zone? The OP sure wants you to think that.

I don’t mind the contrarian view. It makes for good debate. And he makes a few valid points that the pro-Hughes side acknowledges (size, puck hogging).

But color me unimpressed with someone who quotes fan bloggers (including myself) while concurrently using hindsight examples like Yakupov and Lazar to discredit the collective opinions of the accredited hockey community.

He quotes Stubb who praises Kakko over Hughes, then discredits Marr — Stubb’s boss — by calling his Hughes praises “antiquated”.

I hope Jack goes to Vancouver to play for the OP’s Canucks.

I believe this is a Jack Hughes thread, not a Kaapo Kakko vs Hughes or just a Kakko thread, if I’m not mistaken?

 

[93LEAFS]

I believe this is a Jack Hughes thread, not a Kaapo Kakko vs Hughes or just a Kakko thread, if I’m not mistaken?

When you get an OP like that, it pretty much became a Kakko vs Hughes thread.

 

[FinnishSniper]

When you get an OP like that, it pretty much became a Kakko vs Hughes thread.

Well yeah that’s true also