C Jack Hughes - USNTDP (2019 Draft) Part II

[Ippenator]

Not directed at you specifically but this is often said about dynamic offensive players who have the puck a ton. Yes, they make more than their fair sure of risky plays.

This is in fact pretty much true. You know, speed kills - in the good way, but it also often does it in the bad way too. And most of the real speedsters in the NHL don’t have the hockey IQ and the decision making capability to keep up with their full skating speed. Best speedsters are usually the ones that understand when to slow down the plays enough sometimes and not constantly blaze at full speed. McDavid is probably the best speedster in doing this, although even he can make sometimes quite questionable decisions if he plays too much using his full speed skating. Usually his amazing change of pace is what makes him so incredibly dangerous, so for using that too, he needs to slow down his pace occasionally, and he does do it most of the time very well..

 

[Hokinaittii]

I don't know where these poor IQ statements are coming from all of the sudden, none of these prospects lack hockey IQ though they may be a bit green defensively. You don't accumulate the amount of assists that Hughes does with low IQ.

Ippenator just has a tendency of putting too much emphasis on players' hockey IQ and believing one needs to be absolutely elite in that area to succeed in NHL. It's just crazy to say Hughes or Kakko lack in hockey IQ if he has ever seen them play, which I think he has, but somehow just doesn't like what he sees. Probably has something to do with how neither players are shot first type players like his favorite player Laine.

Both Hughes and Kakko have high hockey IQ. You can see how they process things fast on the ice, most of the time making game advancing moves with puck (if that's even a saying in English). Both players have always played against older people and so far they have always succeeded when they have stepped onto next level.

 

[Ippenator]

Ippenator just has a tendency of putting too much emphasis on players' hockey IQ and believing one needs to be absolutely elite in that area to succeed in NHL. It's just crazy to say Hughes or Kakko lack in hockey IQ if he has ever seen them play, which I think he has, but somehow just doesn't like what he sees. Probably has something to do with how neither players are shot first type players like his favorite player Laine.

Both Hughes and Kakko have high hockey IQ. You can see how they process things fast on the ice, most of the time making game advancing moves with puck (if that's even a saying in English). Both players have always played against older people and so far they have always succeeded when they have stepped onto next level.

Please don’t analyze me as a poster, stick to the post and the opinions. Laine is not my most favorite player. So you go wrong already with that assumption. My favorite players are Elias Pettersson, Sidney Crosby Nikita Kucherov and Sebastian Aho (four of the highest hockey IQ’s in the game in my opinion). At the moment I have also learned to love very much both Rantanen and MacKinnon. Laine comes only after all these players for me. And there are still many other players that are better than Laine as players in general.

I don’t even like the most shoot first type of players in general. Just happens that Laine has such a special shot that I can’t be without admiring it very much. And he is still underrated by most of his other talents. He should develop still a lot in the next two or three years and make people change their minds about him,

But sad, if you seriously have defined my opinions and taste in hockey as you just did in your post, as what you just wrote was mostly bollocks and untrue about my opinions and preferences. But yes, you were right at least about me clearly respecting the most players with extremely high hockey IQ’s. That’s what the ultimate best players have been most of all about, and that’s what they will always be most of all about in the future too.

And finally, I NEVER claimed that either Hughes or Kakko don't have pretty good, hockey IQ’s. My point was that they don't have really special or elite hockey IQ’s and in my opinion that will be the difference with their type of players compared to an elite IQ guy like Pettersson, Crosby, Kucherov or even Aho for example. I certainly don't believe that neither will ever become as good as any of the high IQ guys that I have mentioned. Both will for sure become good players, I have no doubt in that, but I just don’t see them really ever becoming real highest top class elite players. And that is exactly because of the slight lack of hockey IQ, from elite IQ to ”only” pretty good hockey IQ. Of course it can be very well so that I’m after all wrong with my opinions, but this is how I see it at least at the moment.

 

[93LEAFS]

Does anyone think this kid had a shot at playing in the nhl next year...?

He will be the first USNTDP kid to go straight to the NHL. Now, part of that is a product of Matthews, Eichel, Kane, Kessel and Seth Jones being late birthdays, and therefore having to find a place to play for a year, as most of them could have been in the NHL at 18.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

He has a high hockey IQ. I think Quinn has hockey IQ questions.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Please don’t analyze me as a poster, stick to the post and the opinions. Laine is not my most favorite player. So you go wrong already with that assumption. My favorite players are Elias Pettersson, Sidney Crosby Nikita Kucherov and Sebastian Aho (four of the highest hockey IQ’s in the game in my opinion). At the moment I have also learned to love very much both Rantanen and MacKinnon. Laine comes only after all these players for me. And there are still many other players that are better than Laine as players in general.

I don’t even like the most shoot first type of players in general. Just happens that Laine has such a special shot that I can’t be without admiring it very much. And he is still underrated by most of his other talents. He should develop still a lot in the next two or three years and make people change their minds about him,

But sad, if you seriously have defined my opinions and taste in hockey as you just did in your post, as what you just wrote was mostly bollocks and untrue about my opinions and preferences. But yes, you were right at least about me clearly respecting the most players with extremely high hockey IQ’s. That’s what the ultimate best players have been most of all about, and that’s what they will always be most of all about in the future too.

And finally, I NEVER claimed that either Hughes or Kakko don't have pretty good, hockey IQ’s. My point was that they don't have really special or elite hockey IQ’s and in my opinion that will be the difference with their type of players compared to an elite IQ guy like Pettersson, Crosby, Kucherov or even Aho for example. I certainly don't believe that neither will ever become as good as any of the high IQ guys that I have mentioned. Both will for sure become good players, I have no doubt in that, but I just don’t see them really ever becoming real highest top class elite players. And that is exactly because of the slight lack of hockey IQ, from elite IQ to ”only” pretty good hockey IQ. Of course it can be very well so that I’m after all wrong with my opinions, but this is how I see it at least at the moment.

My bad then, it's just weird seeing you talking and praising Laine if he isn't even your top-5 player. Maybe he once was but not so much anymore?

You posted couple days ago about Kakko possibly becoming this "one sided buzzer in the corners" and now you literally wrote about Kakko lacking hockey IQ to make the jump next year to the NHL. I don't know, maybe it's just me but that all just screamed to me that you don't see same things than most people see in his game. It wouldn't be the first time seeing you pick a controversial opinion about something and then it backfiring in the end.

I mean, I'm just fine with players staying in Europe for a season after being drafted because there isn't rush but I'm quite confident that Kakko could play in the NHL if he wanted. He would probably play in a sheltered role like Patrick or Kotkaniemi played but he would still be playing.

But yeah, just like Aho, Heiskanen or Pettersson stayed for one year in their home countries, I believe this would be the best scenario for Kakko also. Not because he couldn't hold his ground in the NHL but because it would be best for his future.

And I'm with you about great players needing hockey IQ to succeed, it's just that I believe even if you don't quite have Gretzky's brains, you can even the difference out with your other skills, as long as they are extraordinaire.

 

[talitintti]

I'm glad that others are just now seeing what I have foreseen all the time. This kid is good, but not blue chip #1 overall good.

 

[Dijock94]

His attempted zone entries in the gold medal game really turned me off. I felt like he was trying to dangle through multiple players every shift.

 

[Beukeboom]

This is in fact pretty much true. You know, speed kills - in the good way, but it also often does it in the bad way too. And most of the real speedsters in the NHL don’t have the hockey IQ and the decision making capability to keep up with their full skating speed. Best speedsters are usually the ones that understand when to slow down the plays enough sometimes and not constantly blaze at full speed. McDavid is probably the best speedster in doing this, although even he can make sometimes quite questionable decisions if he plays too much using his full speed skating. Usually his amazing change of pace is what makes him so incredibly dangerous, so for using that too, he needs to slow down his pace occasionally, and he does do it most of the time very well..

This is a good post. Definately too much focus on speed. You see plenty of players skate like the wind but they don't have the real hockey iq to back that speedup.

I like guys like Eichel. He can skate past anybody but also is able to slow the game down when he wants to. These players, obviously rare in numbers, dictate play in the true sense.

I really think Hughes should take an extra year before NHL. All the skinny teenagers get injured over and over. Pettersson on his second injury now. Taking one year to build up muscle is the way to go even if the can contribute from year one.

 

[wings5]

His attempted zone entries in the gold medal game really turned me off. I felt like he was trying to dangle through multiple players every shift.

I don't think they will feel like they are better than everybody at the NHL level, the Hughes brothers will be smarter, I hope.

 

[Ippenator]

My bad then, it's just weird seeing you talking and praising Laine if he isn't even your top-5 player. Maybe he once was but not so much anymore?

You posted couple days ago about Kakko possibly becoming this "one sided buzzer in the corners" and now you literally wrote about Kakko lacking hockey IQ to make the jump next year to the NHL. I don't know, maybe it's just me but that all just screamed to me that you don't see same things than most people see in his game. It wouldn't be the first time seeing you pick a controversial opinion about something and then it backfiring in the end.

I mean, I'm just fine with players staying in Europe for a season after being drafted because there isn't rush but I'm quite confident that Kakko could play in the NHL if he wanted. He would probably play in a sheltered role like Patrick or Kotkaniemi played but he would still be playing.

But yeah, just like Aho, Heiskanen or Pettersson stayed for one year in their home countries, I believe this would be the best scenario for Kakko also. Not because he couldn't hold his ground in the NHL but because it would be best for his future.

And I'm with you about great players needing hockey IQ to succeed, it's just that I believe even if you don't quite have Gretzky's brains, you can even the difference out with your other skills, as long as they are extraordinaire.

Laine’s shot and potential to be one of the truly best is still there and it all makes him an extremely special player and at the same time he gets quite much attacked by certain fan bases and posters. My thing about Laine is that I see the great potential in him and I do believe that he will be in about three years the player that will most probably even be my top three favorite. And by potential he has been my favorite already. But as a player in general he hasn’t yet been there. I happen to very much be in to defending people that deserve defending in my personal life and my job even, so this is what you have probably seen most of all with me about Laine. You have just misinterpreted things, because you don’t know in reality my motives and the real factors that have to do with me as a poster and being an enthusiastic hockey fan for over 30 years.

And this is also why you shouldn’t judge and analyse posters. Do you see me really judging posters? Have you ever seen me judging you as a poster for example? We seem to disagree with quite many things and with what we appreciate the most in hockey players, but so what? I don’t have to get into what you are about here. You seem to like danglers and speedsters like Kupari for example. But I’m not really fond of those kind of players, when they don’t show real top class passing skills and understanding of how the plays develop and how they should position themselves also well to be the best available in plays. Kakko is definitely clearly better than Kupari with his hockey IQ, but still I can’t say that Kakko has extremely impressed me as a player so far.

Don’t get me wrong though, he is very talented and I do expect him to become a really good NHL player at some point. But I don’t still see the elite hockey IQ with him. He is too much into holding the puck and not creating enough of real dangerous chances for his team mates. I see every game him neglect great passing chances when he keeps buzzing in the corners and this is always something that I don’t like about any players honestly. Also he shoots way too rarely, which makes him all in all a very predictable player at least so far. Just keep him buzzing in the corner with very tight covering, and he will most likely be quite harmless against your team.

I want to see Kakko use his dangling skills with much better vision, timing and passing skills. I hope he has it in him really, but so far he hasn’t convinced me that he really has the kind of elite vision and hockey IQ that would make him a truly special player and the same thing exactly seems to apply mostly to Jack Hughes too. Both should become really good players. Probably 60-80 point players. But with how they have been playing so far in their careers I find it hard to believe that either would ever become a true elite 100 point potential player. I could of course be wrong about this, so no need to have any angst about it.

 

[Hokinaittii]

Laine’s shot and potential to be one of the truly best is still there and it all makes him an extremely special player and at the same time he gets quite much attacked by certain fan based and posters. My thing about Laine is that I see the great potential in him and I do believe that he will be in about three years the player that will most probably even be my top three favorite. And by potential he has been my favorite already. But as a player in general he hasn’t yet been there. I happen to very much be in to defending people that deserve defending in my personal life and my job even, so this is what you have probably seen most of all with me about Laine. You have just misinterpreted things, because you don’t know in reality my motives and the real factors that have to do with me as a poster and being an enthusiastic hockey fan for over 30 years.

And this is also why you shouldn’t judge and analyse posters. Do you see me really judging posters? Have you ever seen me judging you as a poster for example? We seem to disagree with quite many things and with what we appreciate the most in hockey players, but so what? I don’t have to get into what you are about here. You seem to like danglers and speedsters like Kupari for example. But I’m not really fond of those kind of players, when they don’t show real top class passing skills and understanding of how the plays develop and how they should position themselves also well to be the best available in plays. Kakko is definitely clearly better than Kupari with his hockey IQ, but still I can’t say that Kakko has extremely impressed me as a player so far.

Don’t get me wrong though, he is very talented and I do expect him to become a really good NHL player at some point. But I don’t still see the elite hockey IQ with him. He is too much into holding the puck and not creating enough of real dangerous chances for his team mates. I see every game him neglect great passing chances when he keeps buzzing in the corners and this is always something that I don’t like about any players honestly. Also he shoots way too rarely, which makes him all in all a very predictable player at least so far. Just keep him buzzing in the corner with very tight covering, and he will most likely be quite harmless against your team.

I want to see Kakko use his dangling skills with much better vision, timing and passing skills. I hope he has it in him really, but so far he hasn’t convinced me that he really has the kind of elite vision and hockey IQ that would make him a truly special player and the same thing exactly seems to apply mostly to Jack Hughes too. Both should become really good players. Probably 60-80 point players. But with how they have been playing so far in their careers I find it hard to believe that either would ever become a true elite 100 point potential player. I could of course be wrong about this, so no need to have any angst about it.

I think you at least used to have a bad habit of disrespecting posters with different opinions than yours, often using phrases like "I really have to question your understanding of hockey" etc if they had different opinion than yours.

You have good opinions which I mostly agree with but sometimes you have bad habit of exaggerating things to make them fit your own agenda. I get it that you think a player like Barkov is overrated but you don't have to call him a wimp and not expect people come at you.

And to be clear, I didn't think it would be such a big deal to think Laine is one of your favorite players due to you having him in your avatar and you have probably spent most of your time here/in Jatkoaika discussing about him.

I know I was guilty of it also but let's continue with the Kakko talk where it's intended.

 

[grentthealien]

Would Matthew Barzal be a good comparison for Hughes?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Would Matthew Barzal be a good comparison for Hughes?

Kane. He's more of a goal-scorer than Barzal.

 

[Monaakko]

Kane. He's more of a goal-scorer than Barzal.

Kane had an approximately 1:1 goal-assist ratio in his draft and draft-1 years, for Barzal it's a bit over 1:3. Hughes' ratio is a bit under 1:3. I'd say Barzal is a better comparison. Also, Hughes has nowhere near as good a shot as Kane.

 

[93LEAFS]

Kane. He's more of a goal-scorer than Barzal.

Huh, he has nowhere near Kane's goal scoring skills. Kane is one of the best junior scorers in recent memory, and tended to shoot a lot more. Hughes if anything tends to overplay waiting for the perfect pass than shoot. He's closer to Marner and Barzal than Kane.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think one of the biggest myths in this draft is that Hughes is a weak goal-scorer.



Barzal was nearly 1:3 last season. This season he's over 1:2. The season before in junior he was nearly 1:7. The season before that he was over 1:2.

Hughes had 21 goals and 33 assists last season in the USHL. He had 10 goals and 17 assists in the WHC17 and WJC18.

Hughes has 10 goals and 38 assists this season for the U18 NTDP team. He's shooting 8.7% this season. That might sound only slightly low, but junior hockey SH%'s are often much higher. His teammate Cole Caufield is shooting 21.4%. Of the big five forward prospects on that team, Hughes is the only one shooting lower than 15%.

I'd like to now get off the statistical discussion because it comes off lazy. I don't think he scores goals as well as Kane, and I don't think he'll put up the same goals:assist ratio, but I do think he'll be under 1:2. Over 1:2 is the mark of a playmaker who doesn't look to score that often. Hughes might not have the most powerful shot, but he does shoot the puck more than his reputation. He's averaging nearly half a shot more per game this season than Caufield whose one of the best pure goal-scorers in the draft.

Because Hughes is so skilled, he's able to score goals in a variety of ways. Goalies might not have to prepare for the hardest shot when Hughes has the puck, but its hard for a goalie to play against Hughes because they know he could easily find a teammate on the back-door for a tap-in, he could go around a few defenders and get to the net or he can shoot the puck. He's not an easy player for a goalie to prepare for when he has the puck near the goal. When Caufield has the puck, you know he's going to shoot. Thats not a slight on him. He's good at it. When Hughes has the puck, his decision-making is more unpredictable, which makes it harder for the goalie. He'll score his share of goals in the NHL.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Highlights from Jack Hughes' 2019 U20 World Junior tournament, courtesy of Puck Daily:

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

As he gets older and bigger and stronger his game will tighten and get cleaned up a bit. He’s just not filled out at all yet. For me he’s still the clear #1OA. It’s not necessarily about ‘19-20 NHL performance, but overall career down the line.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

As he gets older and bigger and stronger his game will tighten and get cleaned up a bit. He’s just not filled out at all yet. For me he’s still the clear #1OA. It’s not necessarily about ‘19-20 NHL performance, but overall career down the line.

Nah, he’s a finished product. No room for growth or development in his game overall or individual elements like his shot. Sky’s the limit for Kakko though. Just wait until he fills out!

 

[Blade Paradigm]

So, here's a streamable of that blown coverage by Jack Hughes in the U20 game vs Team Slovakia:



Replays:



Jack being contained off the rush:



A few examples pertaining to some of the concerns about his game.

 

[Blade Paradigm]

One of many examples of Jack just not trying hard enough on the forecheck; he has the speed to get to the puck and put pressure on the opponent, but does a flyby and allows the Russian defense to keep possession:

 

[Blade Paradigm]

Another example of Jack avoiding contact along the boards; he does not get to the puck the first time, but as the puck rides up the corner boards, he has an opportunity to engage at the half-wall and fight for the puck. He avoids contact, and the Russian player is uncontested for possession.

 

[bigdog16]

This is beginning to sound like the Tavares thread. Picking apart every negative in his game and blowing it up. Hes a special player, some people talk as if hes not even a 1st rounder

 

[Rabid Ranger]

This is beginning to sound like the Tavares thread. Picking apart every negative in his game and blowing it up. Hes a special player, some people talk as if hes not even a 1st rounder

Nah, this is a one person crusade. I'm sure scouts are obsessing over "blown coverage" or "lack of engagement" along the boards rather than his elite skating and offensive skills.