Speculation: Burke (+You/DeLorean) vs. Shanahan

[indigobuffalo]

Tooncesmeow, you traded Phaneuf and Lupul twice.

 

[Wendelstache]

Burke is a failure at evaluating players, and had he not made any trades whatsoever, no free-agent signings what so ever (except to re-sign players), and simply drafted we would have been a better team.

He was prone to trading players for no good reason and failed to relaize that his tampering only made things worse.

So you are saying if we hired a toaster and did nothing it would have been better than Burke era?


I completely agree with this.

 

[ITM]

You speak as if Burke is the only executive who cares and wants to win . All executives care and want to win .

Burke was gainfully employed and had no reason to come here if he didn't have complete control . Also every GM has pressure placed on him by ownership , there job is to build a winning team and if they don't they are shown the door just like Burke was .

I'm not sure how you could possibly glean that from the quote.

Whether I speak as if Burke is/was the only executive who cares and wants to win, or that all executives care and want to win, my assertion remains the same. Moreover, there's nothing in saying that that doesn't allow for a cumbersome relationship between a notoriously ill-managed, short-sighted, win-now monolith like MLSE was, anymore than there's anything that needs pointing out that managers that fail to live up to their mandate are fired irrespective of their relationships with ownership.

You're assuming Burke's employment equated complete control. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but his tenure begs the question especially in light of Shanahan's.

I wonder if you quoted the wrong quote but intended to equally misrepresent my position with my other statement?

 

[BrannigansLaw]

#2, Kessel trade is never made if they know the pick would be #2 overall.

So what you're telling me is that a GM wouldn't make a particular trade if he knew it would turn out bad? Profound.

 

[Mess]

Looks like Lou took the Delorean into the past and undid the Phaneuf trade this time the Leafs goal to dump the salary and recapture the cap which was the exact opposite position of his acquisition.

So now the net return of undoing the deal =

Leafs trade ...

Ian White, Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers, Cody Donaghey, Casey Bailey, Matt Frattin and Ryan Rupert.

For

Fredrik Sjostrom, Keith Aulie, Milan Michalek, Colin Greening, Tobias Lindberg, Jared Cowen and a second-round draft pick in 2017.

Looks like Lou has come out slightly ahead by combining trades & by undoing past mistakes. However if the Leafs had made neither of the Phaneuf trades would they really be that much different off today?.

 

[dirk41]

#2, Kessel trade is never made if they know the pick would be #2 overall.

A competent management team would know that the team they had when the trade was made was horrible.

 

[BlueBaron]

Looks like Lou took the Delorean into the past and undid the Phaneuf trade this time the Leafs goal to dump the salary and recapture the cap which was the exact opposite position of his acquisition.

So now the net return of undoing the deal =

Leafs trade ...

Ian White, Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers, Cody Donaghey, Casey Bailey, Matt Frattin and Ryan Rupert.

For

Fredrik Sjostrom, Keith Aulie, Milan Michalek, Colin Greening, Tobias Lindberg, Jared Cowen and a second-round draft pick in 2017.

Looks like Lou has come out slightly ahead by combining trades & by undoing past mistakes. However if the Leafs had made neither of the Phaneuf trades would they really be that much different off today?.

Presumably the four bolded above would have yielded draft picks at the deadline. I'll err on the side of caution and say they would have yielded 2 3rds, a 4rth and a 5th.

With the drafting record of the Burke era I would say those picks would probably have amounted to little or nothing but one lucky pick could make it all look good.

I would say in hindsight we should have traded Dion at the deadline before the extension was signed , he may have yielded a high pick at that deadline. Hind sight is 20/20 though. Overall as you say it was a lateral move.

 

[Mess]

A competent management team would know that the team they had when the trade was made was horrible.

MLSE hired Fletcher as a interim GM and announced to the World in a public press conference that the goal was to "Clear the Slate" and change the "face of the franchise" and thus bottom out the team and hit the reset button. .

All the veteran leaders including Sundin were removed and the team filled with table scraps by creative design Frogren, Finger, Mayers, Holliwig, etc etc in an obvious attempt to bottom out the team in hopes of landing top draft picks that might have included Stamkos and Tavaras.

Leafs finished 7th last and drafted 5th overall and the best was still to come in terms of future high draft picks.

How could any GM be considered competent that is inheriting a team with Cujo, Toskala and Pogge in net that was 30th in goals against and 30th in PP and PK and lead by Jason Blake and Lee Stempniak and Matt Stajan as it offensive leaders that was designed to finish last overall and think it is a good idea to trade away the Leafs next 2 top 1st round picks and not remotely believe they were going to be top 10 picks ?

Shanny and Lou are now doing exactly what Fletcher set the table for 8 years ago by dumping Phaneuf and Kessel and other vets in hopes that it results in high draft picks as close to #1 overall where #2 overall in 2010 was almost the perfect plan (until Burke came in and ruined it all).

MLSE got Incompetent management instead and it sent Leafs Nation into a disastrous 7 years of slap happy trades and UFA signings that bottomed out the team.

 

[Pyrophorus]

I don't get how Burke has been successful, everywhere but here

 

[hotpaws]

I don't get how Burke has been successful, everywhere but here

where has he been successful anywhere but Ana and that was in large part because someone already did the drafting for him and left him a loaded prospect pool

 

[Menzinger]

I don't get how Burke has been successful, everywhere but here

He inherited teams that had already gone through the pain of a rebuild - his managerial skill it seems is to be a "finisher".

He did help bring in the key parts of the Vancouver rebuild, but that was in a pre salary cap era where trades were much more common.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Looks like Lou took the Delorean into the past and undid the Phaneuf trade this time the Leafs goal to dump the salary and recapture the cap which was the exact opposite position of his acquisition.

So now the net return of undoing the deal =

Leafs trade ...

Ian White, Matt Stajan, Niklas Hagman, Jamal Mayers, Cody Donaghey, Casey Bailey, Matt Frattin and Ryan Rupert.

For

Fredrik Sjostrom, Keith Aulie, Milan Michalek, Colin Greening, Tobias Lindberg, Jared Cowen and a second-round draft pick in 2017.

Looks like Lou has come out slightly ahead by combining trades & by undoing past mistakes. However if the Leafs had made neither of the Phaneuf trades would they really be that much different off today?.

Not that it matters at this point but if the Leafs never traded for Phaneuf instead of giving the Bruins the 2nd overall pick in 2010, do the Leafs finish worse than the Oilers that season and give them the 1st overall pick?

 

[LeafsNation75]

MLSE hired Fletcher as a interim GM and announced to the World in a public press conference that the goal was to "Clear the Slate" and change the "face of the franchise" and thus bottom out the team and hit the reset button. .

All the veteran leaders including Sundin were removed and the team filled with table scraps by creative design Frogren, Finger, Mayers, Holliwig, etc etc in an obvious attempt to bottom out the team in hopes of landing top draft picks that might have included Stamkos and Tavaras.

Leafs finished 7th last and drafted 5th overall and the best was still to come in terms of future high draft picks.

How could any GM be considered competent that is inheriting a team with Cujo, Toskala and Pogge in net that was 30th in goals against and 30th in PP and PK and lead by Jason Blake and Lee Stempniak and Matt Stajan as it offensive leaders that was designed to finish last overall and think it is a good idea to trade away the Leafs next 2 top 1st round picks and not remotely believe they were going to be top 10 picks ?

Shanny and Lou are now doing exactly what Fletcher set the table for 8 years ago by dumping Phaneuf and Kessel and other vets in hopes that it results in high draft picks as close to #1 overall where #2 overall in 2010 was almost the perfect plan (until Burke came in and ruined it all).

MLSE got Incompetent management instead and it sent Leafs Nation into a disastrous 7 years of slap happy trades and UFA signings that bottomed out the team.

Since Phaneuf and Kessel had both Ottawa and Pittsburgh on their list of teams they would agree to go to in a trade and David Clarkson agreed to be traded to Columbus, isn't that another difference? In 2008 Sundin, Kaberle (During the season only) Tucker, McCabe and Kubina have full no trade clauses.

 

[gabeliscious]

Since Phaneuf and Kessel had both Ottawa and Pittsburgh on their list of teams they would agree to go to in a trade and David Clarkson agreed to be traded to Columbus, isn't that another difference? In 2008 Sundin, Kaberle (During the season only) Tucker, McCabe and Kubina have full no trade clauses.

those 5 robbed us of our rebuild. imagine the haul we would have gotten. every other team got to trare away pieces and bottom out. not us

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Things to remember is that Burke and Shanahan is like night and day. Not only that one (Burke) will run over a group of children to get in front of a camera so he can then tell the media guys they know nothing. Shanahan is a bit more laid back and dont seek out the spot light.

And if you look at what Burke tried to build. "We require, as a team, proper levels of pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence. That's how our teams play".

That he then failed to build at team like that does not change the fact that he wanted to build it. And we saw numerous of grinders and fighters getting increased roles with us. And sure, I even enjoyed some of that hockey.

Oh, and Burke also tried to build a defense more fit to the old style of hockey when guys like Komisarek and Schenn actually where effective. He also never did much to rebuild our prospect pool and picked hard working, tough skaters with limited upside most of the time.

To sum it up, Burke was a dinosaur.


Then we have Shanahan. The former power forward, prototypical power forward even.

Well, he was the players representative when the NHL changed direction during the big lockout in 04-05. That´s when the league changed direction to go towards more speed and skill and less grabbing and wrestling.
The job he did then was so impressive Bettman later on after Shanahans retirement as a player hired him to work for the NHL. First within the market group, then to be the leagues top disciplinarian.

And when the NHL emails regarding concussions was released it became pretty clear what Shanhan thought of where the league was heading, where it needed to be heading towards.




And it is no surprise there are rumours that Shanahan pushed for Leafs picking Nylander, even do Nick Ricthie, a prototypical power forward in the making was there to be picked. Do anyone think Burke would have made the same choice?

To sum it up. Shanhan has been a head of the game for over a decade, knowing what direction the league is taking and what type of players will be the stars of the future. Burke never really adapted to the salary cap when ELC´s becomes important, he never adapted to the new rules where a certain type of players where ineffective and another type had more room to manoeuvre. He failed to see the writing on the wall in regard to fighters in the game and even made a tear filled press conference when he was forced to demote Orr because no other team had a guy on their team he could fight with. That would never ever happen with Shanahan as president.

They might both be Irish tough guys but they are otherwise like night and day.

 

[Hurt]

The thing with Shanahan is that he knows that there are things he doesn't know. So what does he do to counteract that? He hires smart people around him who can make decisions about what this specific NHL team needs in this specific era of hockey.

So to answer your question, Shanahan easily. There has been pain but at least the current pain is because the bone is healing in place.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Well put, love the reference to the Wade Belak emails.

Shanahan is a class act.

For this thread, I also would've taken Shanaplan over Burke even with a time machine.

But it was a fun thought experiment.

Signing Kadri and Rielly to their new contracts has cemented this in though. The Shanaplan is so good it almost feels like we're operating with different rules than the other 29 teams.

Shanahan probably has pictures of the owners disposing of a prostitutes body or something...

 

[hotpaws]

The thing with Shanahan is that he knows that there are things he doesn't know. So what does he do to counteract that? He hires smart people around him who can make decisions about what this specific NHL team needs in this specific era of hockey.

So to answer your question, Shanahan easily. There has been pain but at least the current pain is because the bone is healing in place.

That's a very good way to put it .

 

[Faltorvo]

The thing with Shanahan is that he knows that there are things he doesn't know. So what does he do to counteract that? He hires smart people around him who can make decisions about what this specific NHL team needs in this specific era of hockey.

So to answer your question, Shanahan easily. There has been pain but at least the current pain is because the bone is healing in place.

This x 10

There is no fixing the dynamic duo of dunces in blow hard burke and dave no no

they will go down in history as one

if not the worst management team this franchise has ever had.

 

[Eb]

The thing with Shanahan is that he knows that there are things he doesn't know. So what does he do to counteract that? He hires smart people around him who can make decisions about what this specific NHL team needs in this specific era of hockey.

So to answer your question, Shanahan easily. There has been pain but at least the current pain is because the bone is healing in place.

Brian Bourke. Hiring yes men since day one.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Looking at Burke's tenure in hindsight, there isn't actually a large number of mistakes to undo besides the Kessel deal. If you fixed everything he did wrong, but kept on the same path, we wouldn't be a whole lot farther ahead then we are.

Which speaks to how absurdly wrong his building plan was.

 

[leburn98]

The only problem with these what-if scenarios is that we will never know how certain players would fair on a much weaker and constantly under the microscope Leafs team. Honestly, apart from a surefire talent (Crosby, Ovechkin, Stamkos, Karlsson, Price, etc.) who will be great regardless of the team around him, it's difficult to pick and choose based on hindsight.

Now, if we get unlimited uses out of the DeLorean , then that's a different story .

 

[ITM]

The premise isn't expansive enough.

Burke came in attempting to fix a club and implement a culture that was beyond repair in terms of simple substitution. "Big Blue" truculence, and tried and tested Burke policy changes affecting in-house trade deadlines and the like were still - despite his company first protestations - compromised by non-hockey directives. It appears that changed with Shanahan's hire. This doesn't mean the corporate side is ignored. But Shanahan was acquiesced a larger map to work with, and one I'll bet that wouldn't have been felt necessary had Burke not come in the first place.

The Delorean would need to go back to the 70s to change the culture that's being reformed by today's management.

But let's take the either/or lenses off for a moment. Reilly was brought in by Burke and so was JVR and a few others. His contribution wasn't all bad. There was a lot of good. And not to be saccharine, but the best lies are found in truths, and I don't think our club arrives here without a conflicted MLSE once too cowardly to get honest with itself and it's fans unless complete chaos parked itself on the Leafs Nation living room rug.

Maybe we needed Burke to see how bad it was, and Nonis to show us what was behind the curtain when all the slick presentation and promises were and seen for what they actually were.

Shanahan simply saw what so many of us have. He was afforded an exclusive vantage point of analysis with the NHL and that having been groomed by the most loyal organization in hockey in Detroit and a culture of the absolute best mind hockey's known in Scotty Bowman. Drafted by Lou Lamoriello...One of the game's best power forwards...There's no choice here and it's unfair in hindsight to compare the two. It's almost...rude. And, I can't help but think that if we've changed in such drastic fashion wouldn't it, perhaps be nice were the fan base to catch up with the President and be of like mind and apprehension?

Then again...maybe it's better if he continues to be a step ahead of us all.

 

[achtungbaby]

#2, Kessel trade is never made if they know the pick would be #2 overall.

Although Burke insisted years later he would make the same move I think we all know no sane person would do it.

 

[Bomber0104]

Reading this thread and seeing how lopsided it is now, it's almost embarrassing how many people used to support Brian Burke's each and every trade, signing, draft pick, soundbite, etc.

I think ACC1224 is the only one left on this forum... where have the rest of you gone?