Speculation: Burke (+You/DeLorean) vs. Shanahan

[Jack Bauer]

I think the true difference is that Shanahan only took the job he did after being given the autonomy that every one of his predecessors wished they had.

Burke was brought in with a mandate to compete and make the playoffs. Similar to the same environment JFJ worked under until he was fired. What both men wanted to do with the organization was irrelevant to the Peddie's of the world who demanded home playoff dates above all else.

Shanahan is what this team has been waiting for in an executive since Pat Quinn lost any and all control within the front office in the early 2000's.

We can mock those who had the titles of GM and President since then but the real issues were the board and Richard Peddie trying to act as GM's and determine the overall vision.

That was what led us down the path to nowhere.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Forget Burke. If I had the time machine I'd go back far enough to prevent Ballard from taking over. Then I'd treat Keon better and build properly with Sittler/Lanny instead of the ensuing gong show of 45 years.
If we are armed with knowledge and a time machine. I'd also pick up some kid named Gretzky since I know the future.

hmm. this is vera. true. if we're really going that far back.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I think the true difference is that Shanahan only took the job he did after being given the autonomy that every one of his predecessors wished they had.

Burke was brought in with a mandate to compete and make the playoffs. Similar to the same environment JFJ worked under until he was fired. What both men wanted to do with the organization was irrelevant to the Peddie's of the world who demanded home playoff dates above all else.

Shanahan is what this team has been waiting for in an executive since Pat Quinn lost any and all control within the front office in the early 2000's.

We can mock those who had the titles of GM and President since then but the real issues were the board and Richard Peddie trying to act as GM's and determine the overall vision.

That was what led us down the path to nowhere.

with all of that being said.
Burke was still the one who had the whole "pugnastic" philosophy.
Burke was still the one who made egregious drafting decisions

those two alone had nothing to do with trying to make the playoffs at all.
you can be all wheeley-dealy - and protect our picks or - ensure that we pick damned amazing if you can't. (fail on both accounts)

You can not get Martin Gerber
you could draft Europeans and pure skill guys.

didn't. didn't, didn't.


all of that - has nothing to do with peddie, and it's not like i'm all friends with him either.

 

[diceman934]

I think the true difference is that Shanahan only took the job he did after being given the autonomy that every one of his predecessors wished they had.

Burke was brought in with a mandate to compete and make the playoffs. Similar to the same environment JFJ worked under until he was fired. What both men wanted to do with the organization was irrelevant to the Peddie's of the world who demanded home playoff dates above all else.

Shanahan is what this team has been waiting for in an executive since Pat Quinn lost any and all control within the front office in the early 2000's.

We can mock those who had the titles of GM and President since then but the real issues were the board and Richard Peddie trying to act as GM's and determine the overall vision.

That was what led us down the path to nowhere.

Burke stated that he had complete control....he just was not as smart as he thought he was!

 

[diceman934]

If we were to go back in our time machine we could have signed Bobby Orr

 

[Leafidelity]

quite frankly, I don't think burke gets enough.

Nah, people always like to pile on as the years go. The fact is that aside from the Kessel trade, most people thought he was doing the right thing as it was happening. Tough hockey was "in" and still viable at the time. Hindsight will make most GMs look bad in one way or another.

But then I'm not the kind of person to look back in anger. If the Burke era didn't happen as it did, MLSE might not have been as open to the Shanahan era.

 

[i1]

I'd keep going and keep Darryl and Lanny.

 

[burpsalot]

I couldn't handle seeing Burke's lid every day. Shanahanaplan, thanks.

 

[ITM]

Nah, people always like to pile on as the years go. The fact is that aside from the Kessel trade, most people thought he was doing the right thing as it was happening. Tough hockey was "in" and still viable at the time. Hindsight will make most GMs look bad in one way or another.

But then I'm not the kind of person to look back in anger. If the Burke era didn't happen as it did, MLSE might not have been as open to the Shanahan era.

I've thought that myself. And of note to Burke's detractors, the man wasn't trying to fail and undermine the franchise. In the midst of this new climate, we really need to reel in the invective.

The man tried. We don't know what pressure he was under. And he was bitterly hurt by his dismissal. Believable if only by his commitment to the city and his unrealized vision for this club.

"Loss" is the definitional memory by which Brian Burke will associate his time in Toronto. And certainly in his experience more than ours.

 

[Al14]

If I could erase the Burke era, especially the Kessel trade, I would.

However, because we haven't actually been able to invent a time machine, I'll take the Shanahan option!

 

[Mad Brills*]

Or burke trades schenn and kadri for JT

 

[Moncherry]

Burke constantly overestimated the pieces that he collected. He genuinely thought a core of Kessel, Lupul and Phaneuf were the makings of a contender.

 

[Al14]

Or burke trades schenn and kadri for JT

That would mean no JvR, however, we'd have John Tavares!

 

[-DeMo-]

Burke's team wasn't that awful. Our goaltending singlehandedly ruined most of our bad seasons.

I loved the playoff team he iced. With a better coach, I'd have been happy to keep that roster together.

That said.... the management team now is the best in the league, and it's not even close.

really? a bunch of Rookie NHL executives and Lou Lam is the best Management team in the NHL and it's not even close??? I mean I'm happy with who we have but lets get real they havent done anything of note yet besides the Kessel deal. let's see them actually do something to improve the team before we anoint them "The Best in the League and it's not even Close"

Overate Much?

 

[Daisy Jane]

I've thought that myself. And of note to Burke's detractors, the man wasn't trying to fail and undermine the franchise. In the midst of this new climate, we really need to reel in the invective.

The man tried. We don't know what pressure he was under. And he was bitterly hurt by his dismissal. Believable if only by his commitment to the city and his unrealized vision for this club.

"Loss" is the definitional memory by which Brian Burke will associate his time in Toronto. And certainly in his experience more than ours.

the pressure he was under shouldn't have impacted the way he drafted. Which hurt as much as everything else.

 

[Woll Smoth]

I was a big fan of Burke's vision, but the reality is he never really did anything that worked towards that vision at all. He sold us on a Boston Bruins type of team and we ended up with:

Soft forwards
Goons with no skill
Defensive specialists with 0 offense
Defence men who couldn't play D

Instead of getting solid all around players he seemed to get the elite 1 dimensional players

Our Lucic was Orr and McLaren
Our Bergeron was McClemment
Our Chara was Phaneuf
We took Kessel off their hands

Overall the team was tough, could score and had some decent defensive players.

Where Boston's lines 1-4 had varying degrees of all of this, the Leafs had
Line 1 Scoring, no defense, no toughness
Line 2 Less scoring, no defense, no toughness
Line 3 No scoring, defense and some toughness
Line 4 no scoring, no defense and a lot of toughness.

 

[hamzarocks]

Voted Shanny, but shanny was given more freedom and independence than burke. Burke was expected to make the playoffs with assets he had. He started out with no kessel, no franson, no dion, no lupes, no jvr, no bozak, no gards. Shanny has been able to get great assets back with pieces Burke got. Sadly Burke evaluated on the wrong stuff. Nationality, size etc shouldn't factor into making a winning team. If the player is skilled and happy to put on a leaf sweater you should target them. A lot of his drafting made him look out worse than he was. Taking Biggs was a huge gamble, and it failed. His 2nd rounders all busted as he went for players hoping they would become Darcy Tuckers. The worse thing was his college signings. Hanson and Irwin i think; were both busts for us. He thought we were getting 3 1st round talents when in reality Bozak is the only one who panned out and it took him a good 3 seasons before breaking into a top 6 center. Burke didn't have the patience or support to build the right way, otherwise he could have made a nice team. His Franson trade, Dion, Lupes, Jvr, Giggy, Kaberle, Versteeg trades were good to great value for us . However, they came under to believe that they would put us over and make us into a playoff team.

 

[Pucker77]

You're forgetting Gramps reign of dysfunction between JFjr and Burke.
If he had never been hired it would have significantly altered the course of the Team.

This is an interesting point. Hard to say that everything would have went this way, but if Cliff Fletcher did not return for a 2nd stint as GM it is possible that the Leafs would still have Alex Steen, never traded a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd to move up 2 spots in the draft to get Luke Schenn. With their 7th overall pick they could have had Mikkel Boedker or Myers etc. not to mention whoever was drafted with those 2nd and 3rd picks.

Also, the Leafs would not have traded a 2nd and Greg Pateryn for Grabovski, that 2nd was later traded from Montreal to Chicago, and then Calgary and then the Leafs(under Burke) traded Stralman etc to get that pick back for their offer-sheet threat to get Kessel

 

[ITM]

the pressure he was under shouldn't have impacted the way he drafted. Which hurt as much as everything else.

I think he delegated talent evaluation. Perhaps imprudent delegation?

And listen, I'm right there with ya. I stomped when Biggs was taken with Junco on the board. Turns out, neither came as advertised. I only ever caveat criticism because there were some very good Burke moves that the team has benefitted from. He cared. We don't know what mandate he was under independent of anything he might have represented. And remember, Burke if nothing else was a "company man". I suspect Burke's failure (as someone noted) was the straw we needed to break MLSE's back.

As for the ought pressure and people coexist under...I'll never tempt it.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I voted for Shanahan and the Shanaplan because of this reason. He was able to talk Mike Babcock into becoming the Leafs head coach when for at least 1 year everyone else said there is no way he would come to a rebuilding Leafs team. One of Brian Burke's biggest mistakes was keeping on Ron Wilson for to long as their head coach.

 

[Pucker77]

In terms of this game I feel it is unfair to put so many restrictions on what you can do with Burke, compared to just letting Shanahan do what he is doing.

Especially the draft scenario... I think if you told Burke that Tarasenko would be 30+ goal and 70+ point winger who by all accounts is a good teammate I dont think he would shy away from selecting him simply because he is Russian. Not that it would matter because that was the year that was the first pick Boston got for Kessel.

In terms of the draft with picks that we did have I would have told him that instead of trading up from #30 to #25 I would have traded down from #22 to #28-#32. That way we could have had multiple selections and using those picks on Rickard Rackell, John Gibson, Boone Jenner, and Brandon Saad.

With the exception of Rackell they are all North American and Jenner and Saad are both "truculent" players. I wanted Jenner in that draft and I was surprised that Saad fell to #43. I would have also vouched for Kucherov in the late 2nd and Palat in the 7th but if Burke did not want European's then it would not have mattered.

Other notes, I would have traded UFA's for picks like the Versteeg deal. I would have not signed Mike Komisarek, despite how much I wanted the Leafs to sign him at the time. I would have tried to get a better deal for Pavel Kubina than Garnet Exelby. I would have recommended the Blake/Toskala deal WWAAYYY sooner (I just really despised Blake).

After that, I cant really think of much.

 

[hotpaws]

I think he delegated talent evaluation. Perhaps imprudent delegation?

And listen, I'm right there with ya. I stomped when Biggs was taken with Junco on the board. Turns out, neither came as advertised. I only ever caveat criticism because there were some very good Burke moves that the team has benefitted from. He cared. We don't know what mandate he was under independent of anything he might have represented. And remember, Burke if nothing else was a "company man". I suspect Burke's failure (as someone noted) was the straw we needed to break MLSE's back.

As for the ought pressure and people coexist under...I'll never tempt it.

You speak as if Burke is the only executive who cares and wants to win . All executives care and want to win .

Burke was gainfully employed and had no reason to come here if he didn't have complete control . Also every GM has pressure placed on him by ownership , there job is to build a winning team and if they don't they are shown the door just like Burke was .

 

[Paladin2799]

Fair point, however, the current regime's 'process' appears to be a lot more well thought out and logical. That in itself to me is a win. Makes it easier to believe we're actually going to be good one day and develop a long term organization winning strategy - much like the Wings and Devils.

I still think the worst mistake that burke did was letting ron wilson coach the team for as long as he did.

Everyone and thier sister could see he couldnt teach a lick of defense.

 

[tooncesmeow]

Tell Burke to never hire Carlyle, I forget the specific coach but I think they were in on Babcock back in 2013 before they hired Carlyle.

In the 2009 free agency avoid Komisarek and Beauchemin, snag Boychuk, Seidenberg, or even Greene at all costs. Beg Burke to sign one of Cole, Moen or Moulson to shore up the forward corps. Jettison Toskala by any means necessary and pickup Anderson.

Go into the season with a lineup of:
Moulson - Stajan - Kessel
Blake - Bozak - Stempniak
Kulemin - Tlusty - Stalberg
Orr - Irwin - Deveaux

Kaberle - Boychuk
Schenn - Greene
Gunnarsson - Finger

Anderson
Gustavsson

While not amazing, there isn't many impact forawrds to be had in the draft. Moulson would go on to put up 30 goals that year with NYI. With most of the money spent on the backend, the Leafs readjust their big contracts to Komisarek and Beauchemin and sign a talented puck mover in Andy Greene who averaged ~25minutes a night on the ice and racked up 31 assists on the Devils blueline. This allows Schenn to focus on his defensive game and not get caught with the grenades Beauchemin/Komi can throw. The Leafs have an effective breakout guy for Wilson to utilize. Meanwhile, Kaberle gets a steady defender with a great right handed shot that can shut down top lines and the Leafs get a guy who continues to be a top level defender up to today. Leafs pick up Anderson just in time for his cinderella season including his huge playoff performances.

2010 Trade Deadline: Interfere with division rivals and interrupt the Cam Barker trade, getting Kim Johnsson and Nick Leddy from the Wild instead.

I also forgot to list White, Stalberg and some others in this, hard to remember who was around for the start of the season, but this gives the Leafs a decent defensive group to help their scorers get into the offensive zone with a fast paced Wilson system helping them pry themselves out of an abysmal East and save themselves the embarassment of giving the #2 pick, leaving underwhelming players like Gudbranson, Nieterriter, Skinner, McIlrath, and Connolly.

Advise Burkie instead of taking Brad Ross the next Darcy Tucker instead take the big truculent 6'3 winger from the Ottawa 67's, Tyler Toffoli. Avoid Daniel Brodin with the 146th pick and instead take the 147th pick, Brendan Gallgher.

Keep the 2010 free agency the same, it was largely a hit for the Leafs with the addition of MacArthur, could have done without Colby Armstrong though, snag Antti Niemi from Chicago instead of letting him go to San Jose.

2011 draft, advise Burke not to take the prototype power forward in Biggs but instead the touted defensive forward in Saad.

2012 trade deadline season: Sell high on Joffrey Lupul, yea he's an All-Star, but you have Brandon Saad, he'll anchor that line and in no time you'll have JVR. Get rid of soft shooters and double down on truculence. His short contract will only help his price for playoff desperate teams. Columbus being the West needs to move their disgruntled Center, why not send him East? Toronto offers Phaneuf and a pick besting LA's offer of Jack Johnson and a conditional 1st to get Carter.

2012 draft: What more could you criticize? Garbage draft, but Leafs walked away with one of the best. Maybe Lupul could have been traded and turned into a package to get Filip Forsberg before the Caps scooped him up at 11th.


2012 Free Agency: Keep the status quo, the only impact player that could have helped might have been Jagr, using his work in Philly to pitch to Burke how good he help the youngsters of Toronto wiht his work ethic and his steady handedness.

2013 season: Kill Dave Nonis. Just do it. In February, with their renewed offense and a solid back-end, the Leafs replace Phaneuf with Regehr, sending picks and potentially some prospects Buffalo's way. Besting LAK's 2 2nd round pick combos (used it for Bolland, so why not Regehr to fill in that 2nd pairing spot?)

2013 Draft: Keep it Gauthier unless people really think Poirer, Dano, or Shinkaruk are amazing. Alternatively, use it to trade for Robyn Regehr.

2013 Free Agency: Let Bozak go keep KGM together, probably as they slump down to 3rd line behind:

JVR - Carter - Kessel
Saad - Kadri - Toffoli
Kulemin - Grabovski - MacArthur

while keeping:
Rielly - Boychuk
Leddy - Regehr
Gunnarsson - Fraser

Niemi
Reimer

Its not perfect, but you trade the Leafs defensive hassles for longterm solution while keeping a solid offense intact that at its worse is thin down the center, but you still manage to keep a high-scoring, balanced offense running through three lines, and in the end you maintain Burkie's vision of hard to play against big bodied players and a solid goaltending/defensive group. Possible deals to try and interject into at the deadline: Blake Wheeler+Mark Stuart for Rich Peverley+Boris Valabik. Wheeler, even though the Leafs have Toffoli, would be the Leafs 2nd line RW, slotting in behind Kessel. Bishop for 2nd round pick swap in 2012 would give the Leafs a big backup to go behind Niemi, if you don't think Reimer would be the answer.

 

[indigobuffalo]

In terms of this game I feel it is unfair to put so many restrictions on what you can do with Burke, compared to just letting Shanahan do what he is doing.

Especially the draft scenario... I think if you told Burke that Tarasenko would be 30+ goal and 70+ point winger who by all accounts is a good teammate I dont think he would shy away from selecting him simply because he is Russian. Not that it would matter because that was the year that was the first pick Boston got for Kessel.

In terms of the draft with picks that we did have I would have told him that instead of trading up from #30 to #25 I would have traded down from #22 to #28-#32. That way we could have had multiple selections and using those picks on Rickard Rackell, John Gibson, Boone Jenner, and Brandon Saad.

With the exception of Rackell they are all North American and Jenner and Saad are both "truculent" players. I wanted Jenner in that draft and I was surprised that Saad fell to #43. I would have also vouched for Kucherov in the late 2nd and Palat in the 7th but if Burke did not want European's then it would not have mattered.

Other notes, I would have traded UFA's for picks like the Versteeg deal. I would have not signed Mike Komisarek, despite how much I wanted the Leafs to sign him at the time. I would have tried to get a better deal for Pavel Kubina than Garnet Exelby. I would have recommended the Blake/Toskala deal WWAAYYY sooner (I just really despised Blake).

After that, I cant really think of much.

Kubina was already gone when they acquired Kessel.

As for the restrictions, it's all to keep the game fair. If you come in and select every all-star over that 5-year period, it wouldn't be much of a debate against the Shanaplan.

And like it or not, Burke clearly had biases for North American players. When he took over the Leafs had somewhere along the lines of 10-12 European and Russian players on the roster.

When he was fired they were down to 2.