Proposal: Building for 2021-2022

[KJ Dangler]

 

[EDM]

From what I have read Philly is ready to trade him for far less than a first rounder.

 

[thebus88]

A huge problem here, is the amount of people who believe the solution to not winning enough games is to actually lose more games.

 

[KJ Dangler]

A huge problem here, is the amount of people who believe the solution to not winning enough games is to actually lose more games.

Yes , because being hard to play against because you have 0 players with elite skill has worked out really well for us 20 yrs in , and having advanced to the 2nd round 1 time in franchise history . Meanwhile the talented players we do draft , or trade for get tired of playing for a team who’s ceiling is squeaking in as an 8 seed , so then those players start wanting out . I would imagine when Duchene wanted out of Colorado , there were post just like yours , suggesting the team not rebuild , and rather try to aquire a few players/ band-aids to maybe win some games ... Fortunately their GM/ ownership knew better .

 

[CBJx614]

A huge problem here, is the amount of people who believe the solution to not winning enough games is to actually lose more games.

The biggest problem with the tanking mindset (besides the obvious) is that all those teams that people love to use as examples were built during a different era. The league has since changed the rules to make it so that teams can't be built that way.

The Chicago/Pitt/LA/EDM style of tanking won't work anymore. We could finish bottom 3 for 5 years straight and still not pick inside the top 3.

 

[MoeBartoli]

A huge problem here, is the amount of people who believe the solution to not winning enough games is to actually lose more games.

My favorite quote ever from you! Worthy of being plagiarized by me.

 

[Xoggz22]

Yup, tank and make sure you get a top 3 pick . That should be the #1 goal.. anything else we are simply wasting time

Just going to disagree. If they end up with a bottom 3 pick next year because that's the way it plays out, fine, however, I think too many on here think that losing will solve this. That's absolutely not the case. Columbus only pulled out of being a perennial loser when they moved Nash for pieces that could help short and long term and change the culture. At this juncture, they need a plan, not just tank. If you hope that getting a top 3 pick the next two years saves this franchise I'll point you to Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo and NJ. Elite talent drafted and I would argue no plan to build with them.

So maybe I'm blurring a line here but they can't just move players out, lose and expect to be back in the saddle on the upswing in 2 years. I mean what if you can get a sign and trade with Jones to get pieces that are ready to play in the NHL but will need a year to adjust. I'm thinking players like Newhook, Byfield, Holloway, Lundell, Zegras, Foerster... and others. Obviously we dont' know where Seth wants to go but these players have shown high upside and ready, if not close, for NHL action. That has to be part of the plan. Not just draft and hope. Fill in by using the assets you do have and augment wtih some key character signings to add to the locker room and not let that slip. We can add young, NHL ready talent that may take some lumps next year but the rebuild is much quicker and that can only occur with a plan. Tanking is not a plan in my book.

 

[Viqsi]

Just going to disagree. If they end up with a bottom 3 pick next year because that's the way it plays out, fine, however, I think too many on here think that losing will solve this. That's absolutely not the case. Columbus only pulled out of being a perennial loser when they moved Nash for pieces that could help short and long term and change the culture. At this juncture, they need a plan, not just tank. If you hope that getting a top 3 pick the next two years saves this franchise I'll point you to Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo and NJ. Elite talent drafted and I would argue no plan to build with them.

So maybe I'm blurring a line here but they can't just move players out, lose and expect to be back in the saddle on the upswing in 2 years. I mean what if you can get a sign and trade with Jones to get pieces that are ready to play in the NHL but will need a year to adjust. I'm thinking players like Newhook, Byfield, Holloway, Lundell, Zegras, Foerster... and others. Obviously we dont' know where Seth wants to go but these players have shown high upside and ready, if not close, for NHL action. That has to be part of the plan. Not just draft and hope. Fill in by using the assets you do have and augment wtih some key character signings to add to the locker room and not let that slip. We can add young, NHL ready talent that may take some lumps next year but the rebuild is much quicker and that can only occur with a plan. Tanking is not a plan in my book.

YES. This. Absolutely all of this. You get ALL the cookies.

 

[cslebn]

The biggest problem with the tanking mindset (besides the obvious) is that all those teams that people love to use as examples were built during a different era. The league has since changed the rules to make it so that teams can't be built that way.

The Chicago/Pitt/LA/EDM style of tanking won't work anymore. We could finish bottom 3 for 5 years straight and still not pick inside the top 3.

I agree.

Chicago and Pitt were hugely different eras.

I don't know why people use LA as a good example. Yeah their prospect pool looks good but those are prospects that haven't proven a thing yet. LA isn't done. And they never traded their most valuable pieces (Doughty, Kopitar).

EDM has also yet to work out any better than our system. Sure it's fun to watch McDavid and Draisaitl but they haven't won a thing. And that came after they tried to build with high firsts.

 

[majormajor]

Just going to disagree. If they end up with a bottom 3 pick next year because that's the way it plays out, fine, however, I think too many on here think that losing will solve this. That's absolutely not the case. Columbus only pulled out of being a perennial loser when they moved Nash for pieces that could help short and long term and change the culture. At this juncture, they need a plan, not just tank. If you hope that getting a top 3 pick the next two years saves this franchise I'll point you to Edmonton, Toronto, Buffalo and NJ. Elite talent drafted and I would argue no plan to build with them.

So maybe I'm blurring a line here but they can't just move players out, lose and expect to be back in the saddle on the upswing in 2 years. I mean what if you can get a sign and trade with Jones to get pieces that are ready to play in the NHL but will need a year to adjust. I'm thinking players like Newhook, Byfield, Holloway, Lundell, Zegras, Foerster... and others. Obviously we dont' know where Seth wants to go but these players have shown high upside and ready, if not close, for NHL action. That has to be part of the plan. Not just draft and hope. Fill in by using the assets you do have and augment wtih some key character signings to add to the locker room and not let that slip. We can add young, NHL ready talent that may take some lumps next year but the rebuild is much quicker and that can only occur with a plan. Tanking is not a plan in my book.

What you just argued for, to my ears, is the tanking plan.

 

[KJ Dangler]

The biggest problem with the tanking mindset (besides the obvious) is that all those teams that people love to use as examples were built during a different era. The league has since changed the rules to make it so that teams can't be built that way.

The Chicago/Pitt/LA/EDM style of tanking won't work anymore. We could finish bottom 3 for 5 years straight and still not pick inside the top 3.

Buffalo is picking what this year ? Rules were changed as well as odds and this years draft pretty much went exactly how records dictated

NHL draft lottery: Changes approved by Board of Governors, NHLPA

The number of Lottery Draws will be reduced from three to two. This will limit the number of selections the worst finishing Club can drop in the final Draft Order. Whereas, currently, the Worst-Finishing Club can drop from the First Overall position to the Fourth Overall position in Draft Order (as happened in each of 2017, 2019 and 2020), the lowest the Worst-Finishing Club could drop would be to the Third Overall position.

There will be a limit on the total number of selections – 10, a Club participating in the Draft Lottery can “move up” in the event it wins one of the Draft Lottery Draws. The result will be that the number of teams eligible to select First Overall in any given year will be reduced from 16 total teams to 11 total teams

 

[CBJx614]

I agree.

Chicago and Pitt were hugely different eras.

I don't know why people use LA as a good example. Yeah their prospect pool looks good but those are prospects that haven't proven a thing yet. LA isn't done. And they never traded their most valuable pieces (Doughty, Kopitar).

EDM has also yet to work out any better than our system. Sure it's fun to watch McDavid and Draisaitl but they haven't won a thing. And that came after they tried to build with high firsts.

I was more referring to the LA that was dominant for almost the last decade when they won 2 cups in 3 years built around JJ, Doughty, Kopitar and Brown.

A couple top picks and a BUNCH of mid to late firsts. They had the right combination of high picks and some luck (Kopitar/Quick).

Upon further review, how pissed were philly fans about LA winning cups with so many philly drafted players??

Justin Williams(28th in 2000)
Mike Richards (24th in 2003)
Simon Gagne (22nd in 1998)
Jeff Carter (11th in 2003)
Colin Fraser (69th in 2003)


And as far as Edmonton.. They have one of the leagues best 1-2 punches and still have some really good depth. If management makes the right moves they're on their way to becoming yearly contenders.

 

[Viqsi]

What you just argued for, to my ears, is the tanking plan.

I've been thinking of it as "the rebuild plan", because most of the time when people say "tanking" what they mean is "maximizing deliberate losses so as to improve lottery odds". Y'know, suicidal franchise-destroying garbage.

 

[majormajor]

I've been thinking of it as "the rebuild plan", because most of the time when people say "tanking" what they mean is "maximizing deliberate losses so as to improve lottery odds". Y'know, suicidal franchise-destroying garbage.

If Werenski and Elvis are gone in two years then we'll have taken care of the "franchise destruction" part bit either way, no problem achieving that goal.

 

[KJ Dangler]

If Werenski and Elvis are gone in two years then we'll have taken care of the "franchise destruction" part bit either way, no problem achieving that goal.

Which is why if Zach can’t commit after the new coach is named , you trade him this summer as well .. what good does it do to be in same situation with Zach , as we are with Seth now , and he then only has 1 yr left on contract , which will hurt the return .. You ask Zach to commit being the guy we rebuild around this summer . I think with Laine you sign him with plans to be a trade deadline player , and execute that plan unless he’s blown your expectations away , and willing to talk long term

 

[majormajor]

Which is why if Zach can’t commit after the new coach is named , you trade him this summer as well .. what good does it do to be in same situation with Zach , as we are with Seth now , and he then only has 1 yr left on contract , which will hurt the return .. You ask Zach to commit being the guy we rebuild around this summer . I think with Laine you sign him with plans to be a trade deadline player , and execute that plan unless he’s blown your expectations away , and willing to talk long term

- Absolutely try and get Zach to commit long term, but to get him to do that I think you might have to not suck. Like give him a plausibly good team to play with, and $8m+ and then ask him.

- Laine is a situational player. Do we have the situation for him to succeed? If not, then trade him now. I think if we keep him his value will fall by approximately half between now and the deadline.

 

[CBJx614]

- Absolutely try and get Zach to commit long term, but to get him to do that I think you might have to not suck. Like give him a plausibly good team to play with, and $8m+ and then ask him.

- Laine is a situational player. Do we have the situation for him to succeed? If not, then trade him now. I think if we keep him his value will fall by approximately half between now and the deadline.

So you think getting Marner and or Eichel wouldn't help Laines situation at all?!

 

[majormajor]

So you think getting Marner and or Eichel wouldn't help Laines situation at all?!

It would be a step in the right direction. Would it help enough to stabilize Laine's value? I'm not sure.

 

[Xoggz22]

What you just argued for, to my ears, is the tanking plan.

Again, I may be blurring the lines but what my ears hear is that we lose purposefully with the HOPE that we get a top 2 pick in the draft and then the next draft. To me, fail to plan, plan to fail and unless someone adds more to the post than "lose a lot so we get a better draft pick", I'm not on board with that.

Of course we're all dealing in hypothetical right now but lets just say (one example, maybe not even realistic) Seth Jones agrees to an extension in a deal with Colorado (We can argue the merits of which team, which players, etc, again, just an example) and Columbus gets back Newhook, Timmons, Kaut and a cap adjustment (Compher?). They identify Hughes as their top player and take him at #5 (whomever they take, it will be BPA and a future player). This puts them really young down the middle but maybe Timmons is like Seth and just need an opportunity and more responsibility. He's going to play top4 RHD in Columbus so growing pains. Newhook will also play and is a natural center that may or may not be a #1C but he's another top 6C and you can't have too many of them. Kaut may or may not be ready for NHL duty but we're in decent shape on the RW so more learning. But that's three pieces that can help and a vet in Compher that can help in bottom 6.

You still have Korpi to move (likely a pick and prospect) but you also have some options with your young forwards like Foudy, Tex, Bemmstrom, Kaut, Laine... These can be earmarked for other assets. None of these statements are things we all don't know or haven't thought about but there is a plan that needs to be executed, not just lose. I don't know, just seems like too many are wishing on a piece of lottery luck and I'd rather work with assets we know and can control. If we lose but know there is a plan we should be able to recover even without Wright or Bedard or Lambert or Michkov. They only help drive us further. I want the elite talent just like all of you but there is talent already present. We need some lunch pail kids, some grit and leadership and having that and talent is ultimately the goal to get to the SC prize we all want.

So, I get it, long winded and probably, no shit sherlock, but there's been very little that I have seen beyond "tank for tank sake and we'll be great in 2 years when we win both lotteries!" If we lose, we lose but lets not be rudderless, awful to watch, no hope with any of our own talent type team. That's what we've seen with Buffalo, Detroit, NJ and even Edmonton and Toronto (thus far). None are close to winning the cup and that's a lot of wasted elite talent.

 

[cslebn]

I was more referring to the LA that was dominant for almost the last decade when they won 2 cups in 3 years built around JJ, Doughty, Kopitar and Brown.

A couple top picks and a BUNCH of mid to late firsts. They had the right combination of high picks and some luck (Kopitar/Quick).

Upon further review, how pissed were philly fans about LA winning cups with so many philly drafted players??

Justin Williams(28th in 2000)
Mike Richards (24th in 2003)
Simon Gagne (22nd in 1998)
Jeff Carter (11th in 2003)
Colin Fraser (69th in 2003)


And as far as Edmonton.. They have one of the leagues best 1-2 punches and still have some really good depth. If management makes the right moves they're on their way to becoming yearly contenders.

If the earlier LA teams, only doughty was a top 10, let alone top 5 pick. (Hickey at 4 didn't help). My point was they didn't use the picks that people have been pining for to get there.

Agreed Edmonton has time to course correct. But man their rebuild had been going on since like 2006.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Again, I may be blurring the lines but what my ears hear is that we lose purposefully with the HOPE that we get a top 2 pick in the draft and then the next draft. To me, fail to plan, plan to fail and unless someone adds more to the post than "lose a lot so we get a better draft pick", I'm not on board with that.

Of course we're all dealing in hypothetical right now but lets just say (one example, maybe not even realistic) Seth Jones agrees to an extension in a deal with Colorado (We can argue the merits of which team, which players, etc, again, just an example) and Columbus gets back Newhook, Timmons, Kaut and a cap adjustment (Compher?). They identify Hughes as their top player and take him at #5 (whomever they take, it will be BPA and a future player). This puts them really young down the middle but maybe Timmons is like Seth and just need an opportunity and more responsibility. He's going to play top4 RHD in Columbus so growing pains. Newhook will also play and is a natural center that may or may not be a #1C but he's another top 6C and you can't have too many of them. Kaut may or may not be ready for NHL duty but we're in decent shape on the RW so more learning. But that's three pieces that can help and a vet in Compher that can help in bottom 6.

You still have Korpi to move (likely a pick and prospect) but you also have some options with your young forwards like Foudy, Tex, Bemmstrom, Kaut, Laine... These can be earmarked for other assets. None of these statements are things we all don't know or haven't thought about but there is a plan that needs to be executed, not just lose. I don't know, just seems like too many are wishing on a piece of lottery luck and I'd rather work with assets we know and can control. If we lose but know there is a plan we should be able to recover even without Wright or Bedard or Lambert or Michkov. They only help drive us further. I want the elite talent just like all of you but there is talent already present. We need some lunch pail kids, some grit and leadership and having that and talent is ultimately the goal to get to the SC prize we all want.

So, I get it, long winded and probably, no shit sherlock, but there's been very little that I have seen beyond "tank for tank sake and we'll be great in 2 years when we win both lotteries!" If we lose, we lose but lets not be rudderless, awful to watch, no hope with any of our own talent type team. That's what we've seen with Buffalo, Detroit, NJ and even Edmonton and Toronto (thus far). None are close to winning the cup and that's a lot of wasted elite talent.

Not at all, it’s just time to quit having a few good pieces here or there . Time to use this Jones news to give this franchise a purpose . The goal should be to get absolutely as many elite prospects / picks you can acquire for Jones , Werenski , Laine , coupled with the 3 1st rounders this year . Most likely this leads us to drafting in the top 3 next yr . Within a 1.5 yr period you have a mass influx of great prospects all coming in at the same time . Then when you are selling Columbus to a free agent , they see they all the talent in the organization and will be more willing to come here .

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[VT]

So you think getting Marner and or Eichel wouldn't help Laines situation at all?!

Majormajor probably thinks Laine will continue to receive bad the puck on the free ice, one don`t know shoot anymore etc... . So we must trade him now. GMs of other teams are agree.

 

[majormajor]

Again, I may be blurring the lines but what my ears hear is that we lose purposefully with the HOPE that we get a top 2 pick in the draft and then the next draft. To me, fail to plan, plan to fail and unless someone adds more to the post than "lose a lot so we get a better draft pick", I'm not on board with that.

Of course we're all dealing in hypothetical right now but lets just say (one example, maybe not even realistic) Seth Jones agrees to an extension in a deal with Colorado (We can argue the merits of which team, which players, etc, again, just an example) and Columbus gets back Newhook, Timmons, Kaut and a cap adjustment (Compher?). They identify Hughes as their top player and take him at #5 (whomever they take, it will be BPA and a future player). This puts them really young down the middle but maybe Timmons is like Seth and just need an opportunity and more responsibility. He's going to play top4 RHD in Columbus so growing pains. Newhook will also play and is a natural center that may or may not be a #1C but he's another top 6C and you can't have too many of them. Kaut may or may not be ready for NHL duty but we're in decent shape on the RW so more learning. But that's three pieces that can help and a vet in Compher that can help in bottom 6.

You still have Korpi to move (likely a pick and prospect) but you also have some options with your young forwards like Foudy, Tex, Bemmstrom, Kaut, Laine... These can be earmarked for other assets. None of these statements are things we all don't know or haven't thought about but there is a plan that needs to be executed, not just lose. I don't know, just seems like too many are wishing on a piece of lottery luck and I'd rather work with assets we know and can control. If we lose but know there is a plan we should be able to recover even without Wright or Bedard or Lambert or Michkov. They only help drive us further. I want the elite talent just like all of you but there is talent already present. We need some lunch pail kids, some grit and leadership and having that and talent is ultimately the goal to get to the SC prize we all want.

So, I get it, long winded and probably, no shit sherlock, but there's been very little that I have seen beyond "tank for tank sake and we'll be great in 2 years when we win both lotteries!" If we lose, we lose but lets not be rudderless, awful to watch, no hope with any of our own talent type team. That's what we've seen with Buffalo, Detroit, NJ and even Edmonton and Toronto (thus far). None are close to winning the cup and that's a lot of wasted elite talent.

Okay, I can see your position. That can still be consistent with a "tanking" approach, depending on how you handle the rest of the roster.

The names "Newhook, Byfield, Holloway, Lundell, Zegras, Foerster", maybe excepting Zegras, who we likely couldn't get, aren't going to help a team next year even if they are exciting and score a few points. I think it's fully consistent with losing a ton of games and getting a high lottery pick. I understand the preference for getting prospects that can play next year, but it's probably not what decides whether it is tanking or not, because it doesn't really have much bearing on whether you win or not. Now if you sign Danault or not, or if you trade for a competent top 4 RD replacement, those are things that tell me whether we are tanking or not.

That's all descriptive talk. If I'm going to be honest about what I want to see - if landing big fish is out of the question I'm still really hoping we can find a way to get Elvis and Zach to commit here long term. We're in a similar position to Ottawa two years ago when they had their big exodus. Very importantly they were able to get Thomas Chabot to commit to an 8 x 8, and don't forget they kept Connor Brown through all of it. That means that now that Tkachuk, Stutzle, Norris, Pinto, Batherson, Brannstrom, etc... are filling the ranks, they have some strong pieces in place that have kept them out of a Buffalo level suckhole.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Reached the max, so closed. All future offseason talk here:

The Offseason Thread (Previously Retool vs Rebuild)