Post-Game Talk: Bruins 5 - Mike Sullivan's Penguins 1

[3074326]

Pretty pumped that I've not been watching the games lately. These scores have been brutal.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

This phase of this era of Pens' hockey is one where they pretend to have a plan. But it is all smoke and mirrors to sell tickets.

Fine if you want to go to a game, say goodbye to an aging star or two. I don't mind that.

The Pens will begin an actual plan that I believe them on in two or three years.

I can enjoy this phase. But don't blow smoke up my rear and claim it is something that it isn't.

 

[ZorkEnchanter]

Now the real question...

Do you keep this the 2024 pick or the 2025 pick. We could suck even more next year with the same staff.

I'm not sure which pick will be better ...

 

[td_ice]

Now the real question...

Do you keep this the 2024 pick or the 2025 pick. We could suck even more next year with the same staff.

I'm not sure which pick will be better ...

I think we are going to be another year past prime with our skill guys. No young guys coming in that will matter. Same old coaching. We are gonna be worse, imo. I would give up our pick this year.

 

[Tender Rip]

Pens' fans are still on Denial.

Anger next.

Then three more stages.

Most here will take a while to get there.

I’ve been angry for the better part of 5 years, at least as it pertains the Pens.

But anyway, what are you actually arguing that you want to do?
Are you saying trade Sid, Geno and bottom out as quickly as you can?

That is obviously a position and a not stupid one. It might even be the pragmatic approach. I would be in for that based on logic alone, but I am a fan and I am sentimental about those two if noone else, and it remains that you can only truly move on from the current core if you move on from Sid and Geno. I’d prefer trying to be relevant with them, but it at least requires acknowledging that genuine change is needed, starting with the coach(es).

So, is that what you advocate? Trade Sid/Geno and everyone else you can?
Then I’ll accept that you consider me and others in denial. Otherwise you are just having your cake and eating it instead of saying that you want us to go San Jose Sharks, stat.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

I think we are going to be another year past prime with our skill guys. No young guys coming in that will matter. Same old coaching. We are gonna be worse, imo. I would give up our pick this year.

It’s too bad the draft doesn’t come after free agency so we can actually see if there could be an improvement in the standings, however unlikely it is.

Dubas will end up keeping it I’m sure or else people will think he doesn’t believe in his own “retool”

 

[metalan2]

Well, yeah.

Half the league makes the playoffs.

A legit contender?

There really aren't moves that can be made with almost no legit prospects anywhere close to being called up to be cheap talent.

Yea, I mean, it truly takes a lot to miss the playoffs. Even now, a 5 game win streak would put them in the mix. They can't even muster anything resembling that. This team is a bottom feeder.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Pretty pumped that I've not been watching the games lately. These scores have been brutal.

According to who? Because KD and FSG seem to think otherwise...

Now the real question...

Do you keep this the 2024 pick or the 2025 pick. We could suck even more next year with the same staff.

I'm not sure which pick will be better ...

If KD and management ownership don't want a full rebuild which I doubt they do, then you keep the pick and hope to God next year works out

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

It’s too bad the draft doesn’t come after free agency so we can actually see if there could be an improvement in the standings, however unlikely it is.

Dubas will end up keeping it I’m sure or else people will think he doesn’t believe in his own “retool”

It doesn't always have to be free agency or big trades. Look at Vegas and Boston the last 2 years, they fired their coaches and got the guys playing again. Boston fired Cassidy and Vegas fired Gallant,

This team needs a new voice, it's obvious to everyone. MS needs to be fired as soon as the regular season ends!

 

[Gurglesons]

Now the real question...

Do you keep this the 2024 pick or the 2025 pick. We could suck even more next year with the same staff.

I'm not sure which pick will be better ...

I feel like they fire Sullivan next year if they keep him and he starts badly.

I’ll take a pick this year if it’s high. Lindstrom falling to us would be franchise changing.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I’ve been angry for the better part of 5 years, at least as it pertains the Pens.

But anyway, what are you actually arguing that you want to do?
Are you saying trade Sid, Geno and bottom out as quickly as you can?

That is obviously a position and a not stupid one. It might even be the pragmatic approach. I would be in for that based on logic alone, but I am a fan and I am sentimental about those two if noone else, and it remains that you can only truly move on from the current core if you move on from Sid and Geno. I’d prefer trying to be relevant with them, but it at least requires acknowledging that genuine change is needed, starting with the coach(es).

So, is that what you advocate? Trade Sid/Geno and everyone else you can?
Then I’ll accept that you consider me and others in denial. Otherwise you are just having your cake and eating it instead of saying that you want us to go San Jose Sharks, stat.

I have answered this before.

My head says fire sale.

My heart says that if Sid, Geno and the rest want to end their careers here, we owe it to them.

So, I would be honest with them. There are no moves that can be made to add enough to this team to be legit contenders. If they are OK with that and coasting to the end then great. But don't expect the team to be making trades at the deadline as buyers.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

My head says fire sale.

My heart says that if Sid, Geno and the rest want to end their careers here, we owe it to them.

That's the problem right there. Too many identify Crosby and Malkin as the team.
The heart should be for the team, not 2 players.

Even when Mario and Jagr were around, I never felt like they were the only ones who mattered and everything should be catered to them.
I cared about team results and getting the most out of the support players. Anything and everything to win championships.

If people are willing to throw away 5+ years of the organization to make the core 3 happy, they are not Pittsburgh Penguins fans. They are core-3 fans.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Now the real question...

Do you keep this the 2024 pick or the 2025 pick. We could suck even more next year with the same staff.

I'm not sure which pick will be better ...

Later year picks are better, cuz they more match the team's ascension curve. Ideally like 2027 or 2028 picks.
2024 picks don't help us too much, cuz we won't be in the playoffs in 2028 when these guys are ready.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

That's the problem right there. Too many identify Crosby and Malkin as the team.
The heart should be for the team, not 2 players.

Even when Mario and Jagr were around, I never felt like they were the only ones who mattered and everything should be catered to them.
I cared about team results and getting the most out of the support players. Anything and everything to win championships.

If people are willing to throw away 5+ years of the organization to make the core 3 happy, they are not Pittsburgh Penguins fans. They are core-3 fans.

I have no clue why any of the core would want that given that all could contribute on a true contender.

But if they do I am inclined to grant it to them. We owe it to them.

I am not inclined to go "all in" the next two or three years though.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Said it before and I'll repeat the question: what is it about Sullivan's system that Crosby likes? It's not even like he lets them play run and gun hockey, so while it will result in a lot of losses and goals against, it also would be "fun" for the skilled guys to play. Instead, he has them playing stupid dump and chase hockey with zero creativity.

I don't buy the "he gives Sid ice time" stuff. That's going to happen no matter who the coach. Crosby's still the team's best player, so any coach coming in is going to play him 20-ish minutes per night in all offensive situations. It's not like the new guy is going to play Sid 14 minutes per night and remove him from the PP unit.

 

[Karl Prime]

Said it before and I'll repeat the question: what is it about Sullivan's system that Crosby likes? It's not even like he lets them play run and gun hockey, so while it will result in a lot of losses and goals against, it also would be "fun" for the skilled guys to play. Instead, he has them playing stupid dump and chase hockey with zero creativity.

I don't buy the "he gives Sid ice time" stuff. That's going to happen no matter who the coach. Crosby's still the team's best player, so any coach coming in is going to play him 20-ish minutes per night in all offensive situations. It's not like the new guy is going to play Sid 14 minutes per night and remove him from the PP unit.

A lot of the system is built around Sid's strength in winning battles along the boards and being good in tight spaces around the net. Of course, the problem is that there is only one Crosby and 11 other forwards. Malkin is still a hound on the forecheck when he's engaged, and Guentzel was very good down low (learned plenty from Sid I'm sure), but it doesn't work when the likes of Rakell, Smith, Eller, etc, can't hack it down there and they just waste energy fighting for the puck.

I mean, seriously, Dubas brought in Karlsson to help alleviate some of the offensive responsibilities that Sid and Geno had - a guy that has speed, skill, and can bring a different element to the attack. Or at least, I'm sure that was the idea. But Sully made no changes at all. I understand Dubas not making a coaching change last summer, give the guy a season. But it's clearly not working, and I have to imagine if he's not fired in a few months it's because FSG has said no. Sully isn't much like Keefe, who was Kyle stuck with through thick and thin.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I'm annoyed that they wasted the 2018-2022 time period. Not upset now, they've just gotten old. Looking forward to the rebuild tbh.

Said it before and I'll repeat the question: what is it about Sullivan's system that Crosby likes? It's not even like he lets them play run and gun hockey, so while it will result in a lot of losses and goals against, it also would be "fun" for the skilled guys to play. Instead, he has them playing stupid dump and chase hockey with zero creativity.

I don't buy the "he gives Sid ice time" stuff. That's going to happen no matter who the coach. Crosby's still the team's best player, so any coach coming in is going to play him 20-ish minutes per night in all offensive situations. It's not like the new guy is going to play Sid 14 minutes per night and remove him from the PP unit.

I think he's just a creature of habit and superstitious. Likes the familiarity and they did win two cups with him. But that's why it shouldn't be any player's choice, no matter how good they are. How Crosby feels about a coaching change shouldn't even be considered. He doesn't necessarily know what's best for the team.

 

[Tender Rip]

That's the problem right there. Too many identify Crosby and Malkin as the team.
The heart should be for the team, not 2 players.

Even when Mario and Jagr were around, I never felt like they were the only ones who mattered and everything should be catered to them.
I cared about team results and getting the most out of the support players. Anything and everything to win championships.

If people are willing to throw away 5+ years of the organization to make the core 3 happy, they are not Pittsburgh Penguins fans. They are core-3 fans.

They have been the team for 20 years, following our time of irrelevance/fear of relocation.
As a non-local I became a fan because of Mario who remains a separate tier guy for me, but Sid/G are next, and 20 years from now I will be more happy with the franchise for that fairytale not ending like it would for most every other player. Certainly not for getting a year or two headstart on a rebuild that will inevitably be hit or miss whenever it starts. The acrimony - for me - is not for the few we will waste seeing that out, but the years we already have.

NB: more to Jaded… look at Dallas. Yes, there’s also Hintz, Robertson and Heiskanen in their primes, but that’s an old team with a shot. Difference is that they’ve hit on more decisions than we have to add to them.

I just cannot be good with a tear down before at least canning the coach who was not only great on arrival but also “handled” the massive decline. Especially as I’ve said he was the problem for 5 years. One could do a lot in July to make for a last hurrah. Even if only as a playoff also-ran/dark horse.
At this stage I am fine with that. Detroit are barely that now, and its been… a long time.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

Crosby:
Hey Jake, you look a little different…

That's some seriously sloppy and non symmetric tape work Mr Crosby.

Don't like.

 

[Turin]

I think we are going to be another year past prime with our skill guys. No young guys coming in that will matter. Same old coaching. We are gonna be worse, imo. I would give up our pick this year.

Makes no sense to definitively say one way or the other until you know where they are going to pick. As of right now they have a lottery pick. You’re not giving it up if they pick in the top 3.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Said it before and I'll repeat the question: what is it about Sullivan's system that Crosby likes? It's not even like he lets them play run and gun hockey, so while it will result in a lot of losses and goals against, it also would be "fun" for the skilled guys to play. Instead, he has them playing stupid dump and chase hockey with zero creativity.

I don't buy the "he gives Sid ice time" stuff. That's going to happen no matter who the coach. Crosby's still the team's best player, so any coach coming in is going to play him 20-ish minutes per night in all offensive situations. It's not like the new guy is going to play Sid 14 minutes per night and remove him from the PP unit.

Generally speaking, the system allows for players to have a bit of freedom offensively. At its best, it allows for attacks off the rush plus controlled cycles down low. As mentioned by others, it plays to Sid's strengths. Where it's failing is that it has fewer rush opportunities as other teams have matched the Pens' speed, so the Pens now have to rely on dumping the puck in, which they're ill equipped to do.

Plus, it was a stark contrast to Johnston, which was rigid structure. Sid has always been willing to play within structure defensively, but he was clearly unhappy in Johnston's pack mentality offensive structure. Players literally were supposed to stick together and not be more than a certain distance apart under Johnston.

So Sullivan comes in, frees Sid up offensively, they win, they get into a routine...and now Sid doesn't want to disrupt the routine. The scheme, Sullivan's priorities, the way he handles the locker room, it's all familiar to Sid. At this age, I don't think he's all that excited about changing a system, dealing with a new personality, etc.

I think what it comes down to is Sid would probably understand a coaching change, and he'd be fine with someone who brings some new ideas and isn't a Tortorella type. But if there's a way to keep Sullivan, Sid would probably be more comfortable.

 

[Ryder71]

Now the real question...

Do you keep this the 2024 pick or the 2025 pick. We could suck even more next year with the same staff.

I'm not sure which pick will be better ...

You gotta take the pick if it's available this year. Well I would. First of all if we're better next year that'd be a big punch in the gut. But even if not you have a a player in the fold a year earlier. It's gonna be a long process. But if you're drafting 7-10 overall, you should get a real nice player.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Certainly not for getting a year or two headstart on a rebuild that will inevitably be hit or miss whenever it starts. The acrimony - for me - is not for the few we will waste seeing that out, but the years we already have.

It's not 1 or 2 though. The time to rebuild was summer 2022, before the contracts to Malkin, Letang, Rust and Rakell.
When do they start getting serious about a rebuild? Summer 2027?
That's 5 years down the drain. FIVE YEARS in which contention was utterly hopeless and they were time wasting, for the sake of feelings.

It's just insanity to me. I love Sid and Geno, but they do not transcend the needs of the organization. Besides, Sid would be happier on a contender right now than golfing anyway. Same with Malkin. They're only staying due to a sense of loyalty and obligation.
Do they seem happy right now? Doesn't look it to me. Not at all.

Management is not doing them a service by keeping them here. It's misery right now.

I just cannot be good with a tear down before at least canning the coach who was not only great on arrival but also “handled” the massive decline. Especially as I’ve said he was the problem for 5 years. One could do a lot in July to make for a last hurrah. Even if only as a playoff also-ran/dark horse.

I don't believe for a second that they're a good coach away from another Cup. There just isn't enough depth here. You're not winning 4 rounds with this roster. Attempting to do so, instead of accumulating assets for later, is a waste of time.
There's no point in building to be a dark horse. That's horrible math to win it all. Being a dark horse should only be a transition period until you're ready to be legit contenders.

 

[Tender Rip]

It's not 1 or 2 though. The time to rebuild was summer 2022, before the contracts to Malkin, Letang, Rust and Rakell.
When do they start getting serious about a rebuild? Summer 2027?
That's 5 years down the drain. FIVE YEARS in which contention was utterly hopeless and they were time wasting, for the sake of feelings.

It's just insanity to me. I love Sid and Geno, but they do not transcend the needs of the organization. Besides, Sid would be happier on a contender right now than golfing anyway. Same with Malkin. They're only staying due to a sense of loyalty and obligation.
Do they seem happy right now? Doesn't look it to me. Not at all.

Management is not doing them a service by keeping them here. It's misery right now.


I don't believe for a second that they're a good coach away from another Cup. There just isn't enough depth here. You're not winning 4 rounds with this roster. Attempting to do so, instead of accumulating assets for later, is a waste of time.
There's no point in building to be a dark horse. That's horrible math to win it all. Being a dark horse should only be a transition period until you're ready to be legit contenders.

1: 2022 came and went. Would have/could have at that point is as worthless as my day-dreaming of what might have been if Sully was canned four or five years ago. Ie. your timeline must be from now on.

2: I can live with not looking like an automatic contender. Few of those win anyway. Ie. I can live with 1st round losses at this stage, but doing so without the old all-in mindset unless we really look good.

3: Imagine this offseason, assuming a new coach and a PP that is at least average. Imagine no Smith, no Carter, a cap increase, no Guentzel. Imagine trading Eller and letting our new Russian have a stab at it. Imagine Pusty being a regular. That’s a lot of cap-room. Especially if Dubas showed a bit of creativity. You can add others to trade as you like.

I cannot sell out before I see something like that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Barring a situation where this team manages to find the diamond in the rough and ends up with a MacKinnon, Matthews, Makar or Bedard, does anyone think a top-5 pick is gonna dramatically alter the trajectory this team's been on? Even if you land a Calder finalist/winner, you're probably looking at like a 55-60pt dude. I'd be stoked, but I don't think this team's a 60pt player away from turning things around. Even guys like Fantilli and Carlsson, who were top-5 locks, probably don't do much to turn the tide.

The first and most important thing they have to do, for the present as well as future, is they need a new coaching staff. They need a scouting dept revamp. They need to reinvent their 2nd line (whether they put Geno at wing or keep him at 2C). They need to rebuild the bottom-6 again, around the WBS pieces they have. They need a goalie that doesn't collapse every March. They need to replace Graves, and probably add a couple guys with size/physicality to the blueline. The FA crop doesn't look very good to me at any position tbh.

This is all assuming Sid and Geno stay healthy and relatively productive.