Post-Game Talk: BROKE! Pens lose 4-1 to juggernaut Devils

[mpp9]

Fire DB for obvious reasons. Move Dupuis to shake the locker room up. And acquire a winger who can help this damn team score 5 on 5.

Thank you.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I don't really have a problem with keeping the coach if you're going to make some personnel changes. It just seemed like after failing to reach the finals for so long with the current group that it was time for some sort of change to be made and yet they seemed so hell bent on keeping everything the same.

It's really the combination of Dupuis and Bylsma that becomes the problem. Dupuis can be one of the best 3rd liners in the game if used properly. The problem is Bylsma marries himself to certain guys being in certain roles. Dupuis = Top Line in DB's mind and Glass + Adams = his 4th line. A guy like Vitale will always take the blame and get healthy scratched when that line inevitably struggles when we all know Glass and Adams are what bogs that line down.

Yeah, and ironically enough, was the fourth line even struggling for Vitale to sit? Seems like such a random move, really.

It was obvious why Bortuzzo was scratched. Who knows when he'll get back in because of that one glaring mistake.

Hey, are we looking for a positive tonight? OK, here it is: Olli Maatta really bounced back nicely from his worst game in the NHL...tonight was one of his best, imo. It gets totally lost amid all the quagmire of ugly but he was very strong. And he's getting shots to the net, which is great.

 

[Tender Rip]

 

[billybudd]

Part of the first step in an actual culture change should be canning Ray Shero for those moves.

And maybe a bad team like Florida or Buffalo would take a Dupuis type. And Niskanen and/or Orpik are certainly moveable.

Then we go from there.

It's the forwards that are killing us. Not that Niskanen and Orpik are indispensible or anything and they give us some cap space if we can find takers, but they're pretty low on the list of reasons why this team can't win games (unless we want to point to Orpik's "leadership").

In terms of return, Sutter's the guy I look at first. Don't care how many points he had last night. He's cheap, he's young, a stiff breeze will push him back, he doesn't give a flying care about winning and nobody around the league has realized that yet. He can bring return. Sell on him before people see past the guy's last name and his value plummets.

 

[Sivek]

I don't think there's a big-money name (anyone over a couple million) on the team that doesn't have at least a partial NTC, excluding Letang.

Orpik would be the guy I would trade out of the bunch if the team wanted to shake up the room. I've got the feeling he's at the pulse of the team more than anyone else. Also is the guy that admits to not going 100% during the regular season. I could see how that rubs off on other guys.

Him or Sutter. Sutter is just an average to slightly above-average at times 3C with a last name.

 

[vodeni]

And, it happens with all of them the same way. They start trying to do too much because 'being themselves' no longer cuts it, which is turn puts them into a spin towards mediocrity, which is turn reinforces the temptation to try to do it all, which in turn makes things worse.

That's why you juggle lines in hockey. Sometimes, there's no rational explanation for why a spin starts, but you sure as **** have an obligation as a coach to do everything in your power to stop it.

but we looked at the tape at the end of the season and it was just a hot goalie and lack of lucky bounces...

 

[KIRK]

There's just something missing with this team. I don't think it's one thing either. I don't put it all on coaching. I think there's some personnel issues that are just as big.

It doesn't help that Sid, Dupuis, Malkin, Bennett and many others are slumping. Neal and Malkin have not looked anywhere near the same since Kunitz was taken off their line a couple seasons ago. I think this team needs a big shakeup. It probably should have happened in the off-season looking back at it. I can understand that they thought they had a great regular season and wanted to keep a lot of the components together but the supporting cast probably should have been overhauled in the summer.

You know, here's what made me a doubter in Shero.

2008. Sid is out. Geno kills it with Malone and Sykora. Shero says 'if this is how good the team looks without Sid, then imagine how it would look with him'. Then, Mario prods him to deal for Hossa, even giving up Sid's BFF, the prior year's #1, and another #1 for a likely rental.

2012. KMN takes the league by storm. Staal finds his offensive game with Dupuis and Sullivan. Bylsma starts Sid off with Cooke and Kennedy. Shero stood pat, and Bylsma flipped Sid's and Staal's wingers.

I know, there was no 'good' deal to be had. Comforting . . .

 

[Jag68Sid87]

It's the forwards that are killing us. Not that Niskanen and Orpik are indispensible or anything and they give us some cap space if we can find takers, but they're pretty low on the list of reasons why this team can't win games (unless we want to point to Orpik's "leadership").

In terms of return, Sutter's the guy I look at first. Don't care how many points he had last night. He's cheap, he's young, a stiff breeze will push him back, he doesn't give a flying care about winning and nobody around the league has realized that yet. He can bring return. Sell on him before people see past the guy's last name and his value plummets.

Yes, I agree. Been saying for a while that Sutter is expendable. But we do also need to move a D-man...a VETERAN D-man. I don't care which one, at this point. It's beyond ridiculous that ONE of Despres and Bortuzzo aren't regulars right now, Olli Maatta or no Olli Maatta.

 

[KIRK]

Who will be the scapegoat for tonight?

Anyone but the two biggest ones . . . and, no, I don't mean Sid and Geno.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

 

[KIRK]

I don't really have a problem with keeping the coach if you're going to make some personnel changes. It just seemed like after failing to reach the finals for so long with the current group that it was time for some sort of change to be made and yet they seemed so hell bent on keeping everything the same.

It's really the combination of Dupuis and Bylsma that becomes the problem. Dupuis can be one of the best 3rd liners in the game if used properly. The problem is Bylsma marries himself to certain guys being in certain roles. Dupuis = Top Line in DB's mind and Glass + Adams = his 4th line. A guy like Vitale will always take the blame and get healthy scratched when that line inevitably struggles when we all know Glass and Adams are what bogs that line down.

Trading Dupuis would be like taking a crack addict's favorite pipe away. He's still got another half dozen or so to work with.

 

[KIRK]

Yes, I agree. Been saying for a while that Sutter is expendable. But we do also need to move a D-man...a VETERAN D-man. I don't care which one, at this point. It's beyond ridiculous that ONE of Despres and Bortuzzo aren't regulars right now, Olli Maatta or no Olli Maatta.

Actually, what we need to do is to move Sutter AND a vet d-man for a top six winger and Bennett into the other top six role and make Jokinen and Dupuis 2/3 of a third line, with the other wing to be filled by an acquisition of a Clifford type.

Sutter traded where his return is in the top six and Jokinen is 3C is better than what we've currently got.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Trading Dupuis is like a ticking timebomb right now. If we wait too long, his contract will become unmovable. It won't be too much longer until people will start to say, "he plays with Crosby and can't score. We don't have a Crosby, so why would we take him?"

 

[billybudd]

Yes, I agree. Been saying for a while that Sutter is expendable. But we do also need to move a D-man...a VETERAN D-man. I don't care which one, at this point. It's beyond ridiculous that Despres and Bortuzzo aren't regulars right now, Olli Maatta or no Olli Maatta.

That guy not playing is all on the coach. Engelland can't play back there any more. Not with this team's depth. And certainly not over Bortuzzo.

More that I think about it, might be worth moving Orpik just to change the mentality. Shoot a hostage, so to speak.

Trading Niskanen and Dupuis, as has been suggested, for reasons of "sending a message," sends no message at all. "Hey guys, if you do your best but you're not good enough, you're gone." Would just institute a feeling of fatalism, imo.

Better to chuck a D with an A and a forward that clearly doesn't care.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

That guy not playing is all on the coach. Engelland can't play back there any more. Not with this team's depth. And certainly not over Bortuzzo.

More that I think about it, might be worth moving Orpik just to change the mentality. Shoot a hostage, so to speak.

Trading Niskanen and Dupuis, as has been suggested, for reasons of "sending a message," sends no message at all. "Hey guys, if you do your best but you're not good enough, you're gone."

Better to chuck a D with an A and a forward that clearly doesn't care.

I honestly don't care who we'd move from that group...one of Orpik or Niskanen, and one of Sutter or Dupuis...I'd gladly take just about any 2-for-1 deal where we'd get a top-six winger for two of the four.

 

[mpp9]

http://blogs.post-gazette.com/sports/2013-06-20-18-51-15/empty-netters/39796-penguins-at-devils-11-16-13

Seth Rorabaugh blog. Basically saying the same things we are. No line is generating much sustained attack throughout a game. Not enough guys around the net and second chance opportunities. Too many guys playing without structure to their game.

 

[billybudd]

I honestly don't care who we'd move from that group...one of Orpik or Niskanen, and one of Sutter or Dupuis...I'd gladly take just about any 2-for-1 deal where we'd get a top-six winger for two of the four.

God, though. This many roster problems are not easy to fix.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

This isn't about trades and FA signings, which Shero has gotten into heavily but not recognizing that coaching changes happen in the NHL for a reason. Laviolette, Tortorella and Vigneault have all gotten fired recently for far less failure that Bylsma has made this franchise endure.

How's that working out for those teams?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

F this. I'm going to watch the Mike Tyson documentary. I'm in a fighting mood, so it fits.

All I know is I can hardly wait to get to the Bell Centre next weekend... Not that the Habs don't have their own issues right now. But man, losing again to them will put me in a bad mood for weeks. We need to snap out of this before that.

 

[pavskies]

It's time the Penguins stop these cutesy practices that Bylsma lets them do and get back to business. I am always seeing their pictures on Instagram and they are always laughing and joking around. What are they, the Pittsburgh Steelers now? They need to stop this kiddish crap.

 

[Tender Rip]

 

[Speaking Moistly]

That guy not playing is all on the coach. Engelland can't play back there any more. Not with this team's depth. And certainly not over Bortuzzo.

More that I think about it, might be worth moving Orpik just to change the mentality. Shoot a hostage, so to speak.

Trading Niskanen and Dupuis, as has been suggested, for reasons of "sending a message," sends no message at all. "Hey guys, if you do your best but you're not good enough, you're gone." Would just institute a feeling of fatalism, imo.

Better to chuck a D with an A and a forward that clearly doesn't care.

I think trading Dupuis could send a message of, "No more promised spots," which is sorely needed.

TBH, I'm not opposed to trading Orpik, Dupuis and Niskanen... kind of think it would be for the best.

Orpik - His "leadership" needs to go and it would probably shock the team. He's also over the hill and replaceable.
Dupuis - Send a message of no more promised spots, that's over. You earn things. Promising Dupuis he would stay with Sid was a death knell, that needs to be eliminated; even if it is harsh. Also, his age and that contract.
Niskanen - He's just not necessary when the team is healthy or healthy-ish, and there needs to be room for the damn young d. He shouldn't be re-signed anyway.

Use them all to address issues.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Oh man, imagine if the Penguins didn't have Crosby and Malkin. The Penguins would be Predators East.

We are the Predators East. Shero thinks he has Suter and Weber instead of Crosby and Malkin.

****ing terrible org to try to follow.

 

[mpp9]

How's that working out for those teams?

It'll take this team getting swept out of the 1st round for you to consider canning DB. So that's pointless to discuss.

But what personnel moves would you make? Line changes? Malkin isn't getting out of this "funk" anytime soon. You aren't winning a Cup without him. And the longer this goes on, the more troubling it becomes.

 

[IcedCapp]

It'll take this team getting swept out of the 1st round for you to consider canning DB. So that's pointless to discuss.

But what personnel moves would you make? Line changes? Malkin isn't getting out of this "funk" anytime soon. You aren't winning a Cup without him. And the longer this goes on, the more troubling it becomes.

hahahahahahaha, no it won't. It'll be someone else's fault. There is literally nothing Bylsma could do to convince RRP he's the problem. Even running him over with a car wouldn't qualify, because that's an off-ice issue.