Value of: Brett Pesce

[Filthy Dangles]

It’s ridiculous.

Pesce is without a doubt a good dman, and has the potential to become a top pairing shutdown guy.

Nylander is a possession champ. Best Leaf by a country mile for controlled exits/entries. Already a top-line winger, with the potential to be an excellent #1C... which is what he was being groomed for before Matthews got drafted.

Nylander is also younger.

A few things...

1) Pesce is already a "top pairing shutdown guy"

2) Nylander is not a center and probably won't ever be a 1st line center in this league. 1st liner winger, yes.

3) The age difference is negligible. They were drafted 1 year apart.

4) Pesce is locked up on a steal deal for the next 6 years at 4M AAV while Nylander is holding out for 8+

------

Also, your other post about adding a 1st to Slavin for Marner is complete crap. Stop being a homer.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I mean Aho - Marner, yeah not sure the value is even but defiantly not a 1st off, but Slavin isnt thaaaaat good. Maybe not a 1st but a low 2nd/high 3rd I would think

I would argue that you don’t know how good either of those canes players is then, especially Slavin.

 

[pheasant]

I was firmly on board the Nylander-for-Faulk train about a year ago. Toronto needed a righty defender since then, and Nylander could potentially become a C in Carolina.

Now, after last season, it's clear that Faulk is not the kind of player Toronto needs, nor does he carry as high trade value as he did then. But Pesce, on the other hand, has proven he is the kind of defender Toronto needs, and his value has gone up.

Count me in on Nylander for Pesce, as a Leafs fan. I would be down even without the current contract dispute. It's a smart hockey trade for both teams.

I would add something on top of Nylander to get it done. Not sure if Dubas feels the same, but I don't think any of us would know. We don't even know if a trade is something he would consider in the first place. I do know, however, that a trade only becomes more likely as we get closer to December 1st. If the holdout goes deep into November, then a trade might be needed to make a cup run this season.

 

[bluedevil58]

uhm scuse me what

Last I checked Nylander wasn't putting in 80 - 100 points like elite wingers do. You know, like an AO or a Giroux or a Kucherov. Just because he is a Leaf doesn't mean he is an elite top line winger.

 

[emptyNedder]

Another thing worth mentioning is that one of the arguments against him so far has been the issue of attribution. When two players play as much together as he and Slavin has, it can be difficult to know just how to attribute their impact as a pairing. A strong season from Pesce now would eliminate the worry about the extent to which he benefits from the play of Slavin.

This is actually one main reason I start posting. During and after the 16/17 there was a lot of talk on Canes' sites about Slavin being elite. Yet by at least one measure that season, Pesce was benefitting Slavin.
CAR 1617 Pesce With-or-Without You (hoping this link is available to all).
Last year Pesce did benefit from Slavin, but Slavin was not better without Pesce (the nature of WOWY).
Pesce and Slavin were a top D paring. I think those who attribute Pesce's play to Slavin don't understand how good Pesce is.

 

[LucicAndChong]

Last I checked Nylander wasn't putting in 80 - 100 points like elite wingers do. You know, like an AO or a Giroux or a Kucherov. Just because he is a Leaf doesn't mean he is an elite top line winger.

Im not that much of a homer, I dont think that because he is a leaf he is elite. I think that he is elite because he is elite. He could replace a first line player on at least 50% of the teams in the league

 

[glucker]

A few things...

1) Pesce is already a "top pairing shutdown guy"

2) Nylander is not a center and probably won't ever be a 1st line center in this league. 1st liner winger, yes.

3) The age difference is negligible. They were drafted 1 year apart.

4) Pesce is locked up on a steal deal for the next 6 years at 4M AAV while Nylander is holding out for 8+

------

Also, your other post about adding a 1st to Slavin for Marner is complete crap. Stop being a homer.

1) for some reason I was under the impression he was on the second pairing- my mistake there

2)Nylander absolutelty has the skill set to be a center, and filled that role while Matthews was injured last season. He can win faceoffs, is an excellent playmaker, and is responsible in the defensive zone. He’s added a lot of strength since last season, too.

3) Pesce has still had more development time. Nylander has only played two seasons in the NHL, to Pesce’s 3. 2nd season is often seen as a slump season, and that’s what Nylander is being judged on, now.

4) Value contracts are important, but so are gamebreakers. Nylander is going to get somewhere in the 6.5 range when all is said and done, which will be a very good deal given what he’s capable of.

——————

Marner got 69 points, playing mainly on a shutdown line last season. This season he’s playing all situations, and will probably wind up in the 90 point range. It would be insane for the leafs to trade him straight up for either of those players.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

1) for some reason I was under the impression he was on the second pairing- my mistake there

2)Nylander absolutelty has the skill set to be a center, and filled that role while Matthews was injured last season. He can win faceoffs, is an excellent playmaker, and is responsible in the defensive zone. He’s added a lot of strength since last season, too.

3) Pesce has still had more development time. Nylander has only played two seasons in the NHL, to Pesce’s 3. 2nd season is often seen as a slump season, and that’s what Nylander is being judged on, now.

4) Value contracts are important, but so are gamebreakers. Nylander is going to get somewhere in the 6.5 range when all is said and done, which will be a very good deal given what he’s capable of.

——————

Marner got 69 points, playing mainly on a shutdown line last season. This season he’s playing all situations, and will probably wind up in the 90 point range. It would be insane for the leafs to trade him straight up for either of those players.

How do you even know that? He hasn’t played a single game.

 

[pmwlker]

Im not that much of a homer, I dont think that because he is a leaf he is elite. I think that he is elite because he is elite. He could replace a first line player on at least 50% of the teams in the league

An elite player would replace a first liner on every team in the league not half of them. Nylander is a very good young player. Elite is the cream of the crop correct? Or is it thrown around so much it’s basically meaningless at this point? Hard to
tell these days.

 

[Jerkob Slavin]

I keep seeing posts claiming Nylander will eventually sign for $6-6.5 mil. I think if that were realistic it would already be done.

Wanting it doesn’t make it so.

 

[Sundinisagod]

I keep seeing posts claiming Nylander will eventually sign for $6-6.5 mil. I think if that were realistic it would already be done.

Wanting it doesn’t make it so.

Doesn't look like Nylander's bargaining power is improving as time and money pass him by.

 

[bluedevil58]

Im not that much of a homer, I dont think that because he is a leaf he is elite. I think that he is elite because he is elite. He could replace a first line player on at least 50% of the teams in the league

He sure wasn't elite come playoff time.

 

[Jerkob Slavin]

Doesn't look like Nylander's bargaining power is improving as time and money pass him by.

He probably envisions himself as an eventual top line center, but Matthews (and now Tavares) have him capped at a 3rd line center. He could be holding out to force a trade to a team where he can be “the man” and collect a commensurate paycheck.

 

[glucker]

uhm scuse me what

I dont think he’s elite yet... I was being a bit hyperbolic [MOD]

He’s definitely got the tools though. He thinks the game at an elite level, can make fantastic passes, and is insane when it comes to zone entries/exits... I think he just needs to put it all together with some consistency to be considered an actual elite player, and he’ll have the results to back it.

 

[glucker]

How do you even know that? He hasn’t played a single game.

He either added a lot of muscle, or he’s been injecting synthol for the ‘gram

 

[MinJaBen]

Doesn't look like Nylander's bargaining power is improving as time and money pass him by.

True if one assumes his goal is to just get the money and stay in Toronto. If his goal is more about controlling where he ends up, he may be right where he wants to be as the clock ticks down to December 1st.

 

[Nithoniniel]

True if one assumes his goal is to just get the money and stay in Toronto. If his goal is more about controlling where he ends up, he may be right where he wants to be as the clock ticks down to December 1st.

Everything I've heard both officially and from people that I know have a good grasp on the Nylander family indicate that there's no intention of leaving Toronto. There does seem to be some annoyance at the constant trade talk around Willy, but that's all. They are not trying to maximize their position if it means pushing themselves out of town. What's going on here is more likely a player camp playing hardball trying to push a figure around $6M to a figure around $7M long-term, preferably with some manner of protection. I think they were hoping that a rookie GM might cave and give them something extra just to get the deal done. By now it should be obvious that the Leafs won't budge.

Willy is ambitious as all hell though. He wants to be the best, he wants to have a terrific career, he wants to win over and over, and he wants to set himself and his future family up for life while doing so. You don't necessarily think so from his demeanor, but he is.

 

[glucker]

He probably envisions himself as an eventual top line center, but Matthews (and now Tavares) have him capped at a 3rd line center. He could be holding out to force a trade to a team where he can be “the man” and collect a commensurate paycheck.

Nah, sounds like he wants to be a Leaf long term.

Completely speculative- I think contract structure is a sticking point. He probably wants an untradeable/lockout safe contract like Tavares’s, with the huge signing bonuses at the beginning of each season, and the Leafs want something more flexible, in case they do need the make a move with big pay days coming to Matthews and Marner.

 

[Sundinisagod]

True if one assumes his goal is to just get the money and stay in Toronto. If his goal is more about controlling where he ends up, he may be right where he wants to be as the clock ticks down to December 1st.

I'm not seeing him controlling where he ends up? He can stay with the Leafs, or he can end up on any of 30 teams, where is the control in that? I think he'd be putting himself in a worse situation almost anywhere else than Toronto.

 

[Sundinisagod]

He probably envisions himself as an eventual top line center, but Matthews (and now Tavares) have him capped at a 3rd line center. He could be holding out to force a trade to a team where he can be “the man” and collect a commensurate paycheck.

Don't get the impression that he is best suited to being "the man" or that he'd want to be that guy. It would be kind of like when Toronto tried to build the team around Kessel. He's a complimentary player.

 

[Negan4Coach]

"We like our group"
- Jim Rutherford

 

[MinJaBen]

I'm not seeing him controlling where he ends up? He can stay with the Leafs, or he can end up on any of 30 teams, where is the control in that? I think he'd be putting himself in a worse situation almost anywhere else than Toronto.

I think the control he might perceive he gets is that when some other team trades for him, he can ease his contract demands if he likes the team, or continue to insist on the $8M that noone seems to think he's worth. Plus, unlike the Leafs, if he is traded to another team, he is likely one of their top one or two forwards on the team and he has a lot more certainty that he will be there for the duration of the contract, whereas if he signs with the Leafs and they end up in cap trouble or decide to swap a forward for a defender, he is probably the first guy to get shipped out.

 

[Sundinisagod]

I think the control he might perceive he gets is that when some other team trades for him, he can ease his contract demands if he likes the team, or continue to insist on the $8M that noone seems to think he's worth. Plus, unlike the Leafs, if he is traded to another team, he is likely one of their top one or two forwards on the team and he has a lot more certainty that he will be there for the duration of the contract, whereas if he signs with the Leafs and they end up in cap trouble or decide to swap a forward for a defender, he is probably the first guy to get shipped out.

I don't think a trade will happen if he remains unsigned. Too much uncertainty for the other team. Too little return for Toronto.

 

[Fogelhund]

"We like our group"
- Jim Rutherford

It's not often a GM comes out and says, we don't like our group.

 

[Crazydounut]

Pesce is at a very good contract. Nylander will want 7mil per atleast. So right there is a gap Toronto will have to make up in the trade. Plus Pesce is as good or better at his position then Nylander is at his. Meaning Toronto will have to add atleast a B level prospect or better. Even then I don't know if Carolina says yes.