Value of: Brett Pesce

[Critical13]

Haven’t we already established that you specifically 1) Don’t watch the Canes 2) Don’t watch Pesce and 3) Have zero idea if he is a “defensive defenseman” as you keep saying or not?

I believe I asked you for one example, one play, one anything of how you see Pesce limited offensively. Crickets. A lot like this thread, ignorance abound.

If Pesce had “45-50 point skill on display” you would never see it. You don’t know if Pesce is currently showing 45-50 point skill. Why act like you do when it’s so clear you have no idea what you are speaking of?

Big talk, but can you make the case that he has 45-50 point skill? I don’t see it in the numbers. Change my mind rather than tossing insults.

 

[Red Piller]

Big talk, but can you make the case that he has 45-50 point skill? I don’t see it in the numbers. Change my mind rather than tossing insults.

Why bother having a discussion with you at all? How can you have such a solid opinion on what Pesce is as a player when you don’t actually know? Why do people participate in these types of conversations when all they are doing is spreading misinformation but talk in absolutes anyway?

 

[Critical13]

Why bother having a discussion with you at all? How can you have such a solid opinion on what Pesce is as a player when you don’t actually know? Why do people participate in these types of conversations when all they are doing is spreading misinformation but talk in absolutes anyway?

Most of us don’t have time to scout every player for every detail in their game and every inch of hidden potential.

That’s what these birds are for, show me what I don’t have time to see for myself. I probably have seen 20 Pesce games for his entire career and I can’t say I watched him iso. So I look at the traditional stats - nothing there says he had high end offensive talent. So I look at the advanced stats - lots of good news about zone exits and QoC but still nothing that shouts “if he played PP time he would fit right in and net 50”.

I’veyet to see someone lay it out for me. Usually just unnnecesary vitriol because someone else has a different opinion. Coupled with some demeaning comments about how canes fans look down their nose at the less knowledgeable peasants.

I’m here to talk hockey and get educated. I have a life outside the game so I rely on the analysis of other to learn. Teach me of why Pesce is underrated offensively. I have no ill feelings towards him, just an opinion.

 

[Critical13]

Most of us don’t have time to scout every player for every detail in their game and every inch of hidden potential.

That’s what these birds are for, show me what I don’t have time to see for myself. I probably have seen 20 Pesce games for his entire career and I can’t say I watched him iso. So I look at the traditional stats - nothing there says he had high end offensive talent. So I look at the advanced stats - lots of good news about zone exits and QoC but still nothing that shouts “if he played PP time he would fit right in and net 50”.

I’veyet to see someone lay it out for me. Usually just unnnecesary vitriol because someone else has a different opinion. Coupled with some demeaning comments about how canes fans look down their nose at the less knowledgeable peasants.

I’m here to talk hockey and get educated. I have a life outside the game so I rely on the analysis of other to learn. Teach me of why Pesce is underrated offensively. I have no ill feelings towards him, just an opinion.

Guess not

 

[ITM]

Similarly, Canes could keep Pesce and get another forward (center most likely) via another route such as UFA as an example. Then all of this back and forth would be pointless .....

Right. Well...They could. But the conversation, the thing itself, actually arose, and serviced a couple of points that some felt it necessary to address. Alternatives to either scenario are obvious points. As an example, I want the Leafs to retain Nylander. That implies, if the reports are true that Carolina called several times on Nylander, that from wanting to keep Nylander a Maple Leaf, that I'd want Carolina to exercise their search elsewhere. Obvious to the point of not needing identification...Just like, for example, the way in which the Canes fans here present a number of perspectives on a couple of issues without stumbling over one another to be the first to virtue signal to the other side.

 

[ITM]

If they follow the NHL, they would have heard of him. If they just follow their team like a lot of Leaf fans do (not an uncommon phenomena btw) , then they were probably in the dark about Pesce and numerous other players.

I've heard of Brett Pesce and I"ve heard of Justin Braun and Markus Nutivaara. But I'm sure, Sharks fans and Jackets fans could similarly educate me on what I've missed about each player's value mentioned. Much in the way I suspect Leafs fans might provide a greater appreciattion for Travis Dermott, who seems to be somewhat of an unknown, perhaps under appreciated quantity. And I watch a lot of hockey. I follow the NHL. But hearing about a player and understanding his inherent worth are sometimes separated by several degrees. Not always, but on occasion.

 

[Jerkob Slavin]

Brett Pesce will put more points on the board this year if Carolina can consistently score some goals this season. He’s smart, positionally sound, big enough, fast enough, and does an amazing job with his stick and breakout passing. He needs forwards that can convert his passes into assists.

Put Pesce on Toronto, with their firepower, and he’d rack up tons of assists. I guarantee he’d be considered one of the game’s best 2-way defenders... and on a steal of a deal.

He lacks an elite shot. That’s it. Don’t expect bombs from the point. But his defensive play is damn near elite.

 

[CanesFanBudMan]

Pesce already is on pace for 30 points this year and Nylander is only on pace for 0. That drop in production would have me worried.

In all seriousness their values could be pretty close (depending on the unknown details of Nylander's contract negotiations)

 

[Chan790]

Value of Brett Pesce?

Untouchable. He should be a foundation piece of the Canes blueline on a sweetheart deal for the long-term. His deal (along with Slavin's) is part of what is going to allow the Canes to amass a lot of talent around a core of him, Slavin, Svech and Aho without getting into the kind of cap-hell that wrecked Chicago and looks like Toronto's destiny.

Pesce is a monster defensively and his offensive contributions go undervalued because they don't always reflect on the scoresheet.

I'd move Hamilton before Pesce. If nothing around Dougie, Faulk or Fleury gets it done, we don't need it. There is nothing sane the Canes should consider around Slavin or Pesce.

To get more to the issue of Pesce/Nylander...this seems to actually be a "unofficial" proposal thread for that trade...because Nylander isn't signing a good value contract (he's just not, if he were it would be done by now), Pesce shouldn't be on the table; if there's nothing that can be made work around Faulk or even Hamilton, Canes need to walk away.

 

[bobc222]

Guys wait! I figured out why Pesce CAN'T have any value, forget contracts and making the smart plays on the ice, he's only an 82 Overall in NHL 19. Mystery solved.

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

I've heard of Brett Pesce and I"ve heard of Justin Braun and Markus Nutivaara. But I'm sure, Sharks fans and Jackets fans could similarly educate me on what I've missed about each player's value mentioned. Much in the way I suspect Leafs fans might provide a greater appreciattion for Travis Dermott, who seems to be somewhat of an unknown, perhaps under appreciated quantity. And I watch a lot of hockey. I follow the NHL. But hearing about a player and understanding his inherent worth are sometimes separated by several degrees. Not always, but on occasion.

Yeah, you've heard of them sure, but you've also said that Pesce has similar value to them which is way off. First off he's just a better defenseman, plan and simple. You can look at the multitude of numbers and graphs/charts posted in this thread to back that up if you like. He is elite defensively. His offense is Ok but unspectacular. It is however improving. The eye test also doesn't lie with regards to his play. He's an 'unknown' to some around the league because he plays on Carolina and not a big name franchise. Plain and simple. It doesn't negate his value or play in any which way.

Secondly, he's on one of the best long term contracts in the league and he's young and only getting better. Maybe he's not a better player than Nylander. I dunno, it's hard to say, as has been mentioned many times it's apples to oranges in their respective roles but Nylander isn't on the tier of the elite forwards of the league and Pesce isn't there with defenseman either. They are both just very good players. However when you add in the positional scarcity of Pesce (rock solid top 4 RHD) and his contract/cost certaintly it would take a massive overpay for the Canes to give him up. Nylander is not that massive overpay.

 

[ITM]

Yeah, you've heard of them sure, but you've also said that Pesce has similar value to them which is way off. First off he's just a better defenseman, plan and simple. You can look at the multitude of numbers and graphs/charts posted in this thread to back that up if you like. He is elite defensively. His offense is Ok but unspectacular. It is however improving. The eye test also doesn't lie with regards to his play. He's an 'unknown' to some around the league because he plays on Carolina and not a big name franchise. Plain and simple. It doesn't negate his value or play in any which way.

Secondly, he's on one of the best long term contracts in the league and he's young and only getting better. Maybe he's not a better player than Nylander. I dunno, it's hard to say, as has been mentioned many times it's apples to oranges in their respective roles but Nylander isn't on the tier of the elite forwards of the league and Pesce isn't there with defenseman either. They are both just very good players. However when you add in the positional scarcity of Pesce (rock solid top 4 RHD) and his contract/cost certaintly it would take a massive overpay for the Canes to give him up. Nylander is not that massive overpay.

Being charitable, we might say (to the bolded), "yet" in either case. Rather than repeat myself, suffice it to say by "similar" I meant as close as could be had without having to move Nylander. I will add, no team is going to provide a massive overpayment for a defenceman who - by your own admission - isn't elite. Again, we'll say "yet" in this instance.

What this conversation has certainly made plainly obvious is that the timing of any Nylander-Pesce trade is completely askew for any number of reasons.

 

[Critical13]

Pesce already is on pace for 30 points this year and Nylander is only on pace for 0. That drop in production would have me worried.

In all seriousness their values could be pretty close (depending on the unknown details of Nylander's contract negotiations)

Haha well played!

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Being charitable, we might say (to the bolded), "yet" in either case. Rather than repeat myself, suffice it to say by "similar" I meant as close as could be had without having to move Nylander. I will add, no team is going to provide a massive overpayment for a defenceman who - by your own admission - isn't elite. Again, we'll say "yet" in this instance.

What this conversation has certainly made plainly obvious is that the timing of any Nylander-Pesce trade is completely askew for any number of reasons.

Sure. They could both become elite. I guess, but we have to deal with the information we have now. We don't want to trade Pesce unless someone knocks our socks off. An unsigned Nylander is hardly that. A Nylander signed to a long term contract where the AAV is 6 something gets the conversation started. And if that were the case, the Leafs would have already signed him.

 

[Big Daddy Cane]

Trade value is situational. (1) If Dubas' primary motivation in moving Nylander is having his socks knocked off, Pesce is substandard. (2) If Dubas' primary motivation in moving Nylander is to address a need in a hockey trade, Pesce is a solid return, given his position, style and contract. (3) If Dubas' primary motivation in trading Nylander is getting value for a player he's looking to move, Pesce would be a very good return, given the mix of teams potentially interested and what they have to offer.

ITM is clearly viewing this with situation 1 in mind. Other Leafs fans are thinking of situation 2 or a hybrid of situation 2 and 3. Carolina fans are viewing Pesce through a similar prism. You see some that think Nylander isn't good enough. There are fans that think it would be a solid hockey trade. Others are in-between. Situation 3 is not relevant to Carolina at this point.

This is a more multi-layered discussion than just the raw value of Pesce versus the raw value of Nylander.

 

[Nikishin Go Boom]

Pesce played over 22 minutes tonight. The guy is a hoss. Value = much more than most give him.

 

[MinJaBen]

So you Toronto peeps know anything?

 

[Critical13]

So you Toronto peeps know anything?

Nylander is going to be signed today or tomorrow.

Praying they don't deal him.

 

[bleedgreen]

Why does it matter if Pesce has crazy hidden offensive potential or not? The Leafs wouldn’t need him to have more than he’s shown. He’s a stud defensively, is mobile despite good size, and can play a good two way game meaning he can push the play out of the zone with pretty quick feet and hit the forwards with a good pass on top of what he does in his own end. His shot never really scared anyone but he’s definitely worked on it and he can contribute.

The leafs needing more offensive out of him before considering him for this potential trade? Poppycock. He’s plenty good as is and the contract is a bargain.

I honestly don’t think Nylander changes the Canes offense enough to be the guy we trade fPesce for. We have four Rd’s obviously that’s a strength we can turn into a good forward. Pesce should be off the table. Whatever forward we can get for Faulk+ is the most realistic thing to happen, or TVR for a second rounder. If Pesce or Hamilton are the RD we’re moving I’d want a better forward coming back. It’s not about stats or finding a way to exactly match value, I don’t really care what the equations say. Pesce is a long term piece that fits perfectly on the Canes. Nylander is in no mans land, and his team would love to have him but doesn’t exactly need him. Two different team approaches here. If the Leafs decide they have no choice but to move him it’s auction to the highest bidder. You won’t get exactly what you want then.

 

[Chan790]

So you Toronto peeps know anything?

I will be pissed if we make a Nylander/Pesce deal. That's a losing deal for the Canes all-around and we don't need to solve Toronto's problems for them.

 

[dogbazinho]

Its almost worth it to watch some posters shift their opinions of him in about 1 week.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

A team isn't going to stick a guy in a yellow no-contact jersey in anticipation of a trade. If they were that worried about a player about to be traded getting injured, they'd just keep him off the ice all together. Pesce was a little banged up at the end of the Wings game.

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

Revisiting this...

Pesce has been supplanted by Hamilton and is now playing on the third pair (RHD-RHD with TVR). Has he become more expendable? Flyers are set to be active in the trade market, and Pesce seems like an ideal target.

 

[GoldiFox]

Revisiting this...

Pesce has been supplanted by Hamilton and is now playing on the third pair (RHD-RHD with TVR). Has he become more expendable? Flyers are set to be active in the trade market, and Pesce seems like an ideal target.

Wrong and wrong. Pesce has been injured for weeks. He was moved to the top pair and playing well before his injury. No reason for the Canes to move him without a similar piece coming back.

From the Flyers they’d have to be willing to offer up a piece like Voracek or Konecny in the deal. Otherwise there is no point.

I get the impression you were hoping for a 3rd pair discount. Not happening. $4 million x 6 years is an incredible deal for the budget-conscious Canes.

 

[Pi]

Wrong and wrong. Pesce has been injured for weeks. He was moved to the top pair and playing well before his injury. No reason for the Canes to move him without a similar piece coming back.

From the Flyers they’d have to be willing to offer up a piece like Voracek or Konecny in the deal. Otherwise there is no point.

I get the impression you were hoping for a 3rd pair discount. Not happening. $4 million x 6 years is an incredible deal for the budget-conscious Canes.

I think the Flyers not having a GM is still better than having Chiarelli.

Voracek >>>>>> Pesce in value.