Proposal: Brayden Point to Rangers for the 2nd Overall Pick

[NYRKing]

Wouldn't trade Cernak straight up for Kakko.

The thread deteriorated but this is just nuts. Cernak is great but ccmon ccman.

 

[ccman68]

The thread deteriorated but this is just nuts. Cernak is great but ccmon ccman.

I can understand why someone who is really high on Kakko would think i'm crazy. However when you think about it trading a top pairing rhd for a first line winger doesn't make all that much sense. Especially when you consider the fact that he is our only decent rhd.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I can understand why someone who is really high on Kakko would think i'm crazy. However when you think about it trading a top pairing rhd for a first line winger doesn't make all that much sense. Especially when you consider the fact that he is our only decent rhd.

this would make sense if you were discussing a top pair defenseman

 

[The Macho King]

How many 2nd overalls have been as good as Point in the past fifteen years?

There's what, Barkov, Seguin, Hedman, Doughty, and Malkin?

1/3 shot of getting a player better than what we're giving up, and all of those guys except for Doughty took years to pay off.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

How many 2nd overalls have been as good as Point in the past fifteen years?

There's what, Barkov, Seguin, Hedman, Doughty, and Malkin?

1/3 shot of getting a player better than what we're giving up, and all of those guys except for Doughty took years to pay off.

1/3? sure when you ignore the rest of the 2nd overalls after those listed

You far overrate Point after one amazing season on a record breaking team

 

[The Macho King]

1/3? sure when you ignore the rest of the 2nd overalls after those listed

You far overrate Point

Which 2nd overall have I missed that is better than Point? I guess you can argue Eichel (I don't think it's a good argument but go nuts).

2nd overalls are far from locks. Patrick hasn't inspired in his brief time, Svech is a kid and we don't really know what he is yet. It's a mystery box, and Point is a proven commodity.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Which 2nd overall have I missed that is better than Point? I guess you can argue Eichel (I don't think it's a good argument but go nuts).

2nd overalls are far from locks. Patrick hasn't inspired in his brief time, Svech is a kid and we don't really know what he is yet. It's a mystery box, and Point is a proven commodity.

Im fine with you saying youd rather keep the assets you have worked on over the years instead of chances at better ones, but to claim its 1/3 when if you go back to the 80s up to now its almost 1/2 if not a little higher.

I also see Point as a bit overrated when folks are considering him some top talent in the league. Hes had one spectacular season and id like to see another before I start crowning him better than guys like Eichel who have been near PPG for the entire time

 

[The Macho King]

Im fine with you saying youd rather keep the assets you have worked on over the years instead of chances at better ones, but to claim its 1/3 when if you go back to the 80s up to now its almost 1/2 if not a little higher.

I also see Point as a bit overrated when folks are considering him some top talent in the league. Hes had one spectacular season and id like to see another before I start crowning him better than guys like Eichel who have been near PPG for the entire time

I mean, we can go further back. Scouting is way different now, so I don't see how picking Marcel Dionne 2nd overall is super relevant. Limiting things to the lockout on tends to be standard practice as the league has changed significantly, but fine.

03 you get E. Staal, who probably ends up ahead of Point to date (but his career trajectory is odd). 02 you have Lehtonen - a bust. 01 you get Spezza, who is ahead. 00 you get Heatley, who is ahead. and 99 you get D. Sedin, so you have a very strong five year stretch there w/ 4 out of 5 (so we're at 10/20 at this point).

But go back further. 98 you get Legwand - a disappointment although not a bust. 07 you get Marleau. So we're at 1/2 again.

96? Zyuzin. Bust. 95 you get Redden - I think Point ends up ahead there. 94 you get Tverdovsky - Point wins that one. 93 you get Pronger (obviously ahead). And 92 you get Yashin - Point ends up ahead there. So 1/5 there. We're at a total of 12/27.

Falloon
Nedved
Chyzowski
Linden
Shanahan
Carson
Simpson
Muller
Turgeon (not Pierre)
Brian Bellows
Doug Smith
Dave Babych
Perry Turnbull

etc.

So yeah - 2nd overall picks are far from a guarantee. I feel pretty f***ing confident in my assertion of 1/3.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

I mean, we can go further back. Scouting is way different now, so I don't see how picking Marcel Dionne 2nd overall is super relevant. Limiting things to the lockout on tends to be standard practice as the league has changed significantly, but fine.

03 you get E. Staal, who probably ends up ahead of Point to date (but his career trajectory is odd). 02 you have Lehtonen - a bust. 01 you get Spezza, who is ahead. 00 you get Heatley, who is ahead. and 99 you get D. Sedin, so you have a very strong five year stretch there w/ 4 out of 5 (so we're at 10/20 at this point).

But go back further. 98 you get Legwand - a disappointment although not a bust. 07 you get Marleau. So we're at 1/2 again.

96? Zyuzin. Bust. 95 you get Redden - I think Point ends up ahead there. 94 you get Tverdovsky - Point wins that one. 93 you get Pronger (obviously ahead). And 92 you get Yashin - Point ends up ahead there. So 1/5 there. We're at a total of 12/27.

Falloon
Nedved
Chyzowski
Linden
Shanahan
Carson
Simpson
Muller
Turgeon (not Pierre)
Brian Bellows
Doug Smith
Dave Babych
Perry Turnbull

etc.

So yeah - 2nd overall picks are far from a guarantee. I feel pretty ****ing confident in my assertion of 1/3.

Ill ask the obvious question - what do you think Point will average over his next five seasons, points-wise?

 

[The Macho King]

Ill ask the obvious question - what do you think Point will average over his next five seasons, points-wise?

Depends on a lot of factors and there's no point in putting a projection on a developing player. I don't expect 40 goals again - he was shooting something like 20% which is unsustainable, but otherwise his 5 on 5 oiSH% wasn't insanely high considering his line is elite. Maybe he ends up as a 70-80 point player, maybe he ends up a 90-100 point player on a consistent basis.

Either way, the past shows that 2nd overall picks are far from slam dunks.

 

[domaug]

if I'm the Rangers i take Kappo Kaako and never look back. no reason to deal away what will potentially be a stud long term winger for anyone that's reasonably available.

 

[nbwingsfan]

The Rangers don’t do this. They’re a rebuilding team. Point is still very young, but the Rangers need young elite ELC talent like Kakko more.

Why do they need young ELC? In the next 3 years they are very unlikely to end up contenders. It’s also unlikely Kakko ends up as good as Point. If he does, then I’m 3 years he likely signs for even more than Point.

So what exactly is the reason the NYR say no?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Point, Cernak, Foote and one of Raddysh/Katchouk/Lipanov? and make that '19 2d into a first now?
that NYR might consider
Lightning shouldn't, and NYR might still decline

Point has had a great year, just like Namestnikov last season while with TBL skating w Kuch and Stamkos.
Playing with an emerging superstar helps a player produce at his best.
No one knows what Point will be over time, especially once away from Kuch.

worth asking the question, for a couple obvious reasons
- TBL can stay great if they keep rolling in ELC top talent
- as one of sports' greatest GMs used to say "better to trade a guy a year too soon, than a year too late"
Point's value may never be higher -
and TBL are good making the right call - Conacher for Bishop 8^)

We don’t know what Point will be (despite him scoring 66pts as a 21 yo away from Kuch) yet the Rangers don’t trade the 2nd pick for him despite us not having a single clue if Kakko is even good enough for the NHL?

 

[nbwingsfan]

I can understand why someone who is really high on Kakko would think i'm crazy. However when you think about it trading a top pairing rhd for a first line winger doesn't make all that much sense. Especially when you consider the fact that he is our only decent rhd.

Oh.... you were being serious? Yikes.

 

[One Winged Angel]

Why do they need young ELC? In the next 3 years they are very unlikely to end up contenders. It’s also unlikely Kakko ends up as good as Point. If he does, then I’m 3 years he likely signs for even more than Point.

So what exactly is the reason the NYR say no?

1. There’s no guarantee that Point sustains this production in NY without Kucherov and Stamkos.

2. Point has to be paid this summer. Kakko won’t be paid for another 3 years and fits their window even better.

3. In 2 years when Shattenkirk, Staal, Smith and Lundqvist come off the the books, they’ll have even more space with Kakko as opposed to Point.

4. If Kakko at his very best could be a point per game player and if Point would be a 90+ point player in NY (neither is a guarantee), why would either team make this deal? Why does either team take a gamble like the one they’re about to take on?

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

Cernak >> Orr >> Gretzky >> Kakko, advanced formula y’all

 

[One Winged Angel]

We don’t know what Point will be (despite him scoring 66pts as a 21 yo away from Kuch) yet the Rangers don’t trade the 2nd pick for him despite us not having a single clue if Kakko is even good enough for the NHL?

We somehow know what Point will do in NY but don’t know if Kakko is good enough for the NHL?

Yikes.

 

[nbwingsfan]

We somehow know what Point will do in NY but don’t know if Kakko is good enough for the NHL?

Yikes.

We know that Point at the very minimum is a great 60pt player (at age 21). So yeah.

 

[One Winged Angel]

We know that Point at the very minimum is a great 60pt player (at age 21). So yeah.

So why should the Rangers trade the 2nd overall pick for a 60 point player that’s 5 years older and about to get paid a lot higher than a 60 point player?

Also, a player going 2nd overall isn’t going to be a 60 point player? I find that hard to believe.

You look at it in a vacuum. You can’t look at trades in a vacuum. You can’t leave context out.

Yes, Point is better. Yes, Point is proven. That doesn’t mean he’s a fit for the Rangers or that they would make the trade.

It’s as simple as that.

 

[God King Fudge]

You don't trade sure things for what ifs unless you're rebuilding.

 

[nbwingsfan]

So why should the Rangers trade the 2nd overall pick for a 60 point player that’s 5 years older and about to get paid a lot higher than a 60 point player?

Also, a player going 2nd overall isn’t going to be a 60 point player? I find that hard to believe.

You look at it in a vacuum. You can’t look at trades in a vacuum. You can’t leave context out.

Yes, Point is better. Yes, Point is proven. That doesn’t mean he’s a fit for the Rangers or that they would make the trade.

It’s as simple as that.

1. I’m saying at the very minimum. If you actually watched Point this season you’d know he’s not leaching off anyone. Hell he shut down the Bergeron line last post season while going pt/g. If you think he would drop from 90pts at 22 to 60 at 23 then that’s your prerogative.

2. 2nd overalls have been worse players than Point more often than not.

3. The Rangers aren’t contending the next 3 seasons, so why do the cap savings matter?

 

[Go Wings]

Only on HF would you see fans declining to give up the 2nd overall pick for a 23 year old center that just had 41 goals and 92 points in his 3rd NHL season.

Simply stunning

 

[One Winged Angel]

1. I’m saying at the very minimum. If you actually watched Point this season you’d know he’s not leaching off anyone. Hell he shut down the Bergeron line last post season while going pt/g. If you think he would drop from 90pts at 22 to 60 at 23 then that’s your prerogative.

Did you not read anything I said? I said he’s not a guarantee to be what he is in Tampa. They wouldn’t move him, so why does it even matter?

2. 2nd overalls have been worse players than Point more often than not.

The last time a 2nd overall pick was traded for an established NHL forward on draft day was when the Islanders traded the 2nd overall pick (Jason Spezza), Zdeno Chara and Bill Muckalt for Alexei Yashin. Point being that you don’t see it happen often.

3. The Rangers aren’t contending the next 3 seasons, so why do the cap savings matter?

Here’s a better question, which you still haven’t answered... why should the Rangers trade for a player that’s 5 years older and falls out of their window faster? They’re not competing for the next 3 seasons according to your omniscience, why trade for an older player that gets paid now?

 

[nbwingsfan]

Did you not read anything I said? I said he’s not a guarantee to be what he is in Tampa. They wouldn’t move him, so why does it even matter?



The last time a 2nd overall pick was traded for an established NHL forward on draft day was when the Islanders traded the 2nd overall pick (Jason Spezza), Zdeno Chara and Bill Muckalt for Alexei Yashin. Point being that you don’t see it happen often.



Here’s a better question, which you still haven’t answered... why should the Rangers trade for a player that’s 5 years older and falls out of their window faster? They’re not competing for the next 3 seasons according to your omniscience, why trade for an older player that gets paid now?

Because you’re getting a guaranteed star player at age 22 who by the time your 2nd overall pick ends up competing with him in productivity (best case scenario), you will likely finally reaching contender status and Kakko will be seeking even more money (if he even ends up as good).

 

[One Winged Angel]

Because you’re getting a guaranteed star player at age 22 who by the time your 2nd overall pick ends up competing with him in productivity (best case scenario), you will likely finally reaching contender status and Kakko will be seeking even more money (if he even ends up as good).

They would be getting a player who isn’t guaranteed to put up the same numbers in NY, who gets paid bigger money right now. Why should the Rangers be in a rush to give Point $8-$10 million?

Also, he’s 23 years old, not 22. He’s 5 years older than Kakko. That’s not a small gap.

Wait, so Kakko will not be as good as Point, but will be seeking even more money? You contradict yourself and make no sense.