News: Brayden Point open to bridge, 5-year or even 8-year extension with Tampa as per agent
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DistantThunderRep
Registered User
- Mar 8, 2018
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People have been and will continue to manipulate the tax structure by becoming citizens. That is the nature of saving millions. You are dense and out to lunch that you think these owners and players won't do anything to do it. At the end of the day the money and advantage lies with big market teams unless the signing bonus loop hole can be closed.
HABSFTW
Registered User
One. Individual acts of manipulation does not excuse a blanket inequality in the system.
Two. Thinking “well I’m sure people will want to choose to become citizens for millions of dollars” may be true? But it doesn’t excuse the ridiculous system that requires it. Changing citizen ship means more to some than others. There are bigger implications.It would be simpler just to make salaries have different cap hits based on taxation then.
But I guess I only have two questions.
1.) are you actually denying that there is an advantage, are you just assuming that other factors matter more? If so why do you think nasvhville. Dallas and Tampa are always signing people for less? What do they have in common?
2.) if tax free teams were to become big market teams...... let’s say jimmy Johnson were to buy the stars and they became bigger than the cowboys..... would the system then need to change. Or is it still Fair?
Might even be in the 8.5 to 9.5 range. Which will still have Leaf fans panties is a wad. There is little difference talent wise.
We will see but I disagree. One dumb GM caving to 2 players is more of an outlier than new landscape. This summer with a lot of RFA'swe will see
Life isn’t fair. If you want lower taxes then vote that way. It’s not just the players who take home more money in lower tax locales - it’s you as well.
And are we also going to account for the differences in government services in each area that those tax dollars pay for? Because if not you’re a hypocrite who only wants to remove advantages when they aren’t yours.
Life isn’t fair. Sure. There was no cap. That wasn’t fair. They then made a cap and decided that there would be fair rules for all... except there has been a proven unfair advantage that allows teams an unfair advantage. It has been proven that teams who are competitive in tax free markets consistently sign people for less.
You do realize that teams cried because the couldn’t compete? That’s How it all started. Life wasn’t fair. without a cap... they had a lock out. hundreds of people lost their jobs for a year and a half to make it fair.
Except now it’s not.
There is no healthcare cap. There is no school system cap. There is a salary cap. There was no cap before. The league decided to artificially impose a cap on salaries. They did not choose to put a weather or nightlife or school system cap on.
If they put a nightlife cap on... I will be for anything that makes it fair across the board.
The hypocrisy is that fans and teams cried because they could compete with the market. Now that they have an advantage. It’s ok.... that’s pretty hypocritical
When was Matthews mentioned? This thread isn't even about the Leafs..don't bring them into it
You said it yourself: there is a SALARY cap - not a “take home pay after the government takes its cut” cap. And that salary cap is equal for every NHL team.
The take home pay is an intrinsic part of it. Your net pay is what matters. You have to know this.
Can you honestly say you see no relationship with no tax states and better deals?
Why is that in your mind if the taxes don’t matter?
No, the salary cap is not and has never been about how much money the players take home. The sole purpose of the salary cap was to limit and equalize the amount that teams can spend; where that money goes after they cut the checks is out of their control and not their problem.
In addition people make choices about where to live based on more than just tax rates. Some people don’t mind paying higher taxes in return for increased government services; others want to keep as much of their money as possible. Some people prefer larger cities with great nightlife and others prefer the quiet life. Some like the cold and others want warm weather and beaches. You can’t argue that the league should account for one of those things and not the others.
And even if you did want to argue that only tax rates should be accounted for, why stop at income tax? Places with lower income taxes generally have significantly higher sales and property taxes - why shouldn’t those be accounted for if your goal is truly to create a level playing field where net pay is equalized across the board? And why not eliminate endorsements or require that those dollars be pooled amongst all the league’s players? You can argue that endorsements are outside of the league’s salary system but the same is true of taxes; if you want to account for the latter the former is equally valid to account for.
The truth is you don’t care about a level playing field - you only want to account for those areas where your team has disadvantages while leaving your advantages in place. That’s hypocritical.
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Again
1.) do you believe that tax free states are able to sign people for less?
2.) do you think that’s fair.
1) There is zero evidence to support that. There are several teams in places without state income taxes (though people there still pay federal income taxes as well as state/local property and sales taxes which as I’ve mentioned are higher than most places with state income taxes) and the only one anyone ever complains about is Tampa. None of those teams, Tampa included, have displayed any advantage in attracting outside free agents, and in all the years since the cap was implemented this has only become an issue in recent years when Tampa became one of the best teams in the league. So the whole argument comes down to a few (certainly not all) of Tampa’s free agents taking less than they might have gotten elsewhere to stay with the Lightning.
Stamkos and Hedman are best friends who have played for the Lightning their entire careers; theirs was a mutual decision to stay together. Kucherov has been loyal to the organization ever since Vinik paid for his surgery when his own team in Russia would not. And they’re really the only ones on the Lightning who you can argue left money on the table - the rest of the Lightning’s signings were at market value.
So out of all the free agent signings made by every team in every season in the cap era, you’re going to argue that three players with very good reasons other than taxes to sign for less than they might have gotten elsewhere constitute prima facie evidence of an unfair advantage? And that those three outweigh all the players every season who choose to sign in high-tax areas?
If you brought “evidence” like that to court you’d be laughed out of the room and order to pay attorney’s fees for a frivolous suit.
2) See the above. There’s no evidence that the Lightning even have an advantage, much less that it’s unfair in comparison with the advantages enjoyed by other franchises.
Are you kidding??? You realize there are more teams than Tampa. The tax situation is NOT just Tampa.
Look at the salaries that repeatedly get handed out in. Nashville, Tampa, Dallas. Every single Time.
They have been able sign players at
Under market value consistently once they got good. Just check for yourself.
Players have been interviewed past and present. They all say that taxes are a factor and have a real difference in take Home pay.
Toronto has basically 24/7 coverage of hockey. It is reported as a given here. Unless all these players are lying..........
If you think stamkos, kucherov and headman all signed together because they are super friends with secret handshakes......
Come on.
Lightning players who signed for less than they could have gotten elsewhere:
- Hedman
- Kucherov
- Stamkos, though with the way he was playing at the time it was actually more money than he deserved.
Lightning players who signed at or above market value:
- Callahan
- Stralman
- Garrison
- Carle
- Morrow
- Coburn
- Girardi
- Palat
- Johnson
- Killorn
- Miller
- Gourde
- McDonagh
etc.
Yep, definitely has to be an unfair tax advantage and not just a few players choosing to take less for other reasons.
- Hedman
- Kucherov
- Stamkos, though with the way he was playing at the time it was actually more money than he deserved.
Lightning players who signed at or above market value:
- Callahan
- Stralman
- Garrison
- Carle
- Morrow
- Coburn
- Girardi
- Palat
- Johnson
- Killorn
- Miller
- Gourde
- McDonagh
etc.
Yep, definitely has to be an unfair tax advantage and not just a few players choosing to take less for other reasons.
Stamkos and Hedman flat out said that’s why they took less to stay together in Tampa, but I’m sure you know better than they do.
You must think it's unfair that players in toronto can make more through sponsorships and such.
We should be a cap on sponsorship money too.
It's on the main boards. If only Tampa fans want to discuss it they can do that on their own
Stamkos and Hedman flat out said that’s why they took less to stay together in Tampa, but I’m sure you know better than they do.
Well it’s kinda funny that stamkos went to UFA and took meetings with other teams..... unless they were a package deal.
I don’t doubt for a second that helps. A lot helps. Weather helps. Lack of media helps. Teammates help. Generally speaking as a rule money matters more.
How about this.... if you lived in a city where the leafs/hockey were covered 24/7 and former and current players. Media, agents, management were interviewed..... and the state tax issue has been mentioned multiple times as a given, would you believe them?
BecAuse, mclellanan, o Neil, colaiacovo, mike Johnson Mike Weaver, etc are all on the radio here now. Tsn staff is here and talk all the time
They interview pros on a daily basis. Many have said taxes matter in decision making and they make a real difference in money.
Do you know better than they do? If you heard multiple players agents management and reporters all reference it. Would you believe it then?
Todd1a
Kucherov or prospect
The Winter Soldier
Registered User
- Apr 4, 2011
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I think this is the sweet spot. Would not surprise me when it is all signed and done. TB will have a good number that will make Matthews number look even worse. Hopefully for other teams sake, the RFA comparables will be more saner and back to norms after Point signs.
Lord Stan 2020
Elite fan
as far as is it fair? probably not im a lightning fan so I LOVE it myself lol... and is too bad. Toronto? Should have never allowed a cap period... All teams should be able to work out tv contracts for their teams like the damned yankees and pay whatever their money bags can pay imho...
That aint gonna happen its the salary cap generation you're gonna have to take the good with the bad the fair and the unfair.... It is what it is... I don't see it changing in future cause you can cry foul but the NHL needs teams like dallas tampa nashville. Whether others like it or not... Those small market teams will help grow the sport so that you in canada will benefit by higher payrolls also as it moves upwards...Probably not as fast as you or us want to be truthful... Yet is what is going to make this game get to levels which are easier for some teams. To be honest Toronto is a team hurt in a lot of ways the probably have more money then god as a franchise and they can only spend such a little percentage so be thankful for the small market in time it will help you sign guys like tavares and maybe just maybe win another cup... you do understand in toronto you were able to lure a top 10 player in world probably cause the market is steadily climbing? So give it time nothing changes over night and is new so going to take time... but you look at the other sports... some teams fall for a bit in salary cap age but dont they keep plugging along? and those top teams those top markets? Do they not come back around in every sport and get to titles? I think so ... toronto will have its chance... its not perfect but they will get there in spite of it being not a perfect system..
That aint gonna happen its the salary cap generation you're gonna have to take the good with the bad the fair and the unfair.... It is what it is... I don't see it changing in future cause you can cry foul but the NHL needs teams like dallas tampa nashville. Whether others like it or not... Those small market teams will help grow the sport so that you in canada will benefit by higher payrolls also as it moves upwards...Probably not as fast as you or us want to be truthful... Yet is what is going to make this game get to levels which are easier for some teams. To be honest Toronto is a team hurt in a lot of ways the probably have more money then god as a franchise and they can only spend such a little percentage so be thankful for the small market in time it will help you sign guys like tavares and maybe just maybe win another cup... you do understand in toronto you were able to lure a top 10 player in world probably cause the market is steadily climbing? So give it time nothing changes over night and is new so going to take time... but you look at the other sports... some teams fall for a bit in salary cap age but dont they keep plugging along? and those top teams those top markets? Do they not come back around in every sport and get to titles? I think so ... toronto will have its chance... its not perfect but they will get there in spite of it being not a perfect system..
