Brandon sutter undergoes surgery. Out 4-6 weeks.

[DL44]

He PK's well and that's pretty much it?

Keep fighting the good fight.

 

[RandV]

He PK's well and that's pretty much it?

Keep fighting the good fight.

Basically he's the player Pittsburgh fans told us he is, nothing more nothing less. And that would be fine, but Benning is operating under the impression that he's a lot more and now that's what we're paying for.

 

[arttk]

He PK's well and that's pretty much it?

Keep fighting the good fight.

Pretty much.
He has zero playmaking skills, hence why he has no chemistry with any other player and any line he anchors becomes an offensive blackhole.

I am not even sure how good he is in a Malholtra role because he is in a way being sheltered by Horvat, which is ridiculous.

To sum it up, we are going to be paying him 4.3 with a NTC. He is paid like a 2nd line center without the production of a 2nd line center.

 

[lousy]

Pretty much.
He has zero playmaking skills, hence why he has no chemistry with any other player and any line he anchors becomes an offensive blackhole.

I am not even sure how good he is in a Malholtra role because he is in a way being sheltered by Horvat, which is ridiculous.

He isn't the best playmaker but he fits this team perfectly. He doesn't bleed goals while on the ice, and is a great defensive player. Since the canucks have such horrible secondary scoring at this point, he works out perfectly. We can't count on an offensive outburst from any line but the first, so if we can limit the damage when playing the other lines that is just great. Sutter will also chip in some offense, although not at the production level others are hoping for.

 

[DL44]

Pretty much.
He has zero playmaking skills, hence why he has no chemistry with any other player and any line he anchors becomes an offensive blackhole.

I am not even sure how good he is in a Malholtra role because he is in a way being sheltered by Horvat, which is ridiculous.

His value lies in his ability to make the lines he's playing against also look like black holes.


Can you give me a specific game or games that exemplifies Sutter being sheltered. Its easy to thru the NHL shift charts to see how each team used their lines to confirm or deny this narrative.
-also i thought it was known quality of comp data is flawed because of how it allocates value to players.


Edit: for example... i'm looking at the Nov 4th Pit game... http://www.nhl.com/stats/shiftcharts?id=2015020183
1st shift: vs Malkin, Kessel, Letang, Perron
2nd: same
3rd: Malkin, Crosby, Letang, Kessel
4th: Bonino line
5th: Crosby line..
... you get the point..


So what game do you have exemplified Sutter "being sheltered by Horvat"...

 

[arttk]

He isn't the best playmaker but he fits this team perfectly. He doesn't bleed goals while on the ice, and is a great defensive player. Since the canucks have such horrible secondary scoring at this point, he works out perfectly. We can't count on an offensive outburst from any line but the first, so if we can limit the damage when playing the other lines that is just great. Sutter will also chip in some offense, although not at the production level others are hoping for.

He is not even the guy that is counted on to shut things down, Horvat is. If he is used as a shutdown center, then yeah that would be great. He is not and don't be mistaken about that. He is given an offensive role, and he is not producing.

 

[arttk]

His value lies in his ability to make the lines he's playing against also look like black holes.


Can you give me a specific game or games that exemplifies Sutter being sheltered. Its easy to thru the NHL shift charts to see how each team used their lines to confirm or deny this narrative.
-also i thought it was known quality of comp data is flawed because of how it allocates value to players.

@work, can't really find the time to dig into it that much.

 

[DL44]

@work, can't really find the time to dig into it that much.

The Pit game was an interesting one... Sutter and Horvat were basically going back and forth between Crosby and Malkin...

gonna go look at a team with an obvious scoring line at home and see what happened...

 

[lousy]

He is not even the guy that is counted on to shut things down, Horvat is. If he is used as a shutdown center, then yeah that would be great. He is not and don't be mistaken about that. He is given an offensive role, and he is not producing.

Really? I don't think horvat has been much of a shutdown center this year. Sutter currently is an excellent shutdown center, and he was playing high minutes out of our forward group. Which incidentally insulates horvat, not the other way around.

Like I said, we don't have high offensive potential outside of our first line. So sutter was doing a great job limiting chances as a 2c. He fits our teams need at this point, just because we are not going to magically get a bunch of (or one) offensive studs who can carry a line. We just don't have the assets to acquire that.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

"He has zero playmaking skills"

"Constructive criticism"



And this is supposed to be taken seriously?

 

[VanJack]

Regime apologists are already claiming that Sutter's injury has derailed the season....but gimme a break....guy wasn't actually lighting it up when he went down....and Desjardins couldn't find any wingers to play with him either.....it's shocking really where the 'Nucks find themselves in the middle....McCann wasn't even supposed to be here and Cracknell was a Utica signing who willed his way on to the roster....and now that Horvat has hit the wall, it's Sedin or bust....this tire-fire really belongs to Jimbo...He had to let Richardson and Mathias walk for cap reasons and then watch his other "big signing" Vey morph into an AHL journeyman.

 

[biturbo19]

Kind of funny how it always seems to work for the Canucks though. Sutter had missed 3 games combined in the last 5 seasons and now he's out for almost 2 months 16 games into his time in Vancouver.

Sad funny maybe.

Sucks when this kind of thing happens to the Canucks. Which feels often.

 

[RobertKron]

He isn't the best playmaker but he fits this team perfectly. He doesn't bleed goals while on the ice, and is a great defensive player. Since the canucks have such horrible secondary scoring at this point, he works out perfectly. We can't count on an offensive outburst from any line but the first, so if we can limit the damage when playing the other lines that is just great. Sutter will also chip in some offense, although not at the production level others are hoping for.

I like the idea that if your team has horrible secondary scoring, the "perfect" move is to go after a guy that exacerbates the problem.

 

[iceburg]

Regime apologists are already claiming that Sutter's injury has derailed the season....but gimme a break....guy wasn't actually lighting it up when he went down....and Desjardins couldn't find any wingers to play with him either.....it's shocking really where the 'Nucks find themselves in the middle....McCann wasn't even supposed to be here and Cracknell was a Utica signing who willed his way on to the roster....and now that Horvat has hit the wall, it's Sedin or bust....this tire-fire really belongs to Jimbo...He had to let Richardson and Mathias walk for cap reasons and then watch his other "big signing" Vey morph into an AHL journeyman.

Ever play dominos?

It's clear that Sutter was never going to replace Kesler's 41 goal season (either was Kesler btw). It's also clear that Horvat isn't quite ready to take on the 2nd line C role. Sutter was/is the stop gap in Horvat's transition. His injury has forced Horvat and McCann into roles they are not quite ready for.

I find it funny that the collective was moaning so strongly at JB for not going fast enough to a youth movement but when he is forced to go more quickly, that same collective is moaning about lack of depth...

 

[Pip]

Ever play dominos?

It's clear that Sutter was never going to replace Kesler's 41 goal season (either was Kesler btw). It's also clear that Horvat isn't quite ready to take on the 2nd line C role. Sutter was/is the stop gap in Horvat's transition. His injury has forced Horvat and McCann into roles they are not quite ready for.

I find it funny that the collective was moaning so strongly at JB for not going fast enough to a youth movement but when he is forced to go more quickly, that same collective is moaning about lack of depth...

Benning did not plan to have good enough centre depth to deal with injuries this season.

The plan was Henrik-Sutter-Horvat-Vey

McCann and Cracknell ended up forcing their way on the roster which helps but still doesn't solve the problem. Retaining a proven NHL guy who can play centre or move to the wing like Richardson or Matthias would have went a long way in helping us deal with injuries that happen every year.

Depth down the middle and on the backend are the most important areas for a team and somehow Benning managed to downgrade in both areas. For all the talk about development, this management is watching Horvat founder in too large of a role because they neglected to get the players to properly insulate him. Completely inexcusable.

 

[Cupless44]

Basically he's the player Pittsburgh fans told us he is, nothing more nothing less. And that would be fine, but Benning is operating under the impression that he's a lot more and now that's what we're paying for.

Really probably time to stop trumpeting "what Penguin fan say" Who cares at this point.

We saw our own sample for a few games before this injury. I didnt see a star but I saw some good things. Good speed and skating, which this team DESPERATELY needs, Sutter has decent skill and some good puck handling moves, can rush to the net, good defensively.

Think he is missed on the PK???

And Penguin fans said he was soft as butter. I didn't see that. I did not see an abrasive player but I saw a player who did not shy away from contact, I saw a player who does go to the boards to finish his check.

Soft as butter...that would be Vrbata

 

[Cupless44]

Benning did not plan to have good enough centre depth to deal with injuries this season.

The plan was Henrik-Sutter-Horvat-Vey

McCann and Cracknell ended up forcing their way on the roster which helps but still doesn't solve the problem. Retaining a proven NHL guy who can play centre or move to the wing like Richardson or Matthias would have went a long way in helping us deal with injuries that happen every year.

Depth down the middle and on the backend are the most important areas for a team and somehow Benning managed to downgrade in both areas. For all the talk about development, this management is watching Horvat founder in too large of a role because they neglected to get the players to properly insulate him. Completely inexcusable.

Did Gillis leave great center depth for Benning to inherit? He left the #2 center demanding out of here to a trade to one team and nothing behind. No young centers ready for a significant role because he couldn't draft any in 6 years.

I hated acquiring Bonino in trade, jury out on Sutter. Point is though, basically the same point the Benning blasters always overlook. The state of the team, the organizational depth was left in a worse state by the Gillis regime than most of you understand or are willing to admit.

No GM was going to come in here and fix it in 16 months. Benning took over and aging team in decline, with a void of good NHL prospects.

 

[Intangibos]

Really probably time to stop trumpeting "what Penguin fan say" Who cares at this point.

You should because the Sutter supports are the ones constantly acting like we think he's the worst player in the world when that's quite clearly not the case.

We saw our own sample for a few games before this injury. I didnt see a star but I saw some good things. Good speed and skating, which this team DESPERATELY needs, Sutter has decent skill and some good puck handling moves, can rush to the net, good defensively.

You know what else this team desperately needs? To win games. The object of the game is to outscore your opponent. Bonino was our ES point leader last year, and Sutter hasn't been that good without the Sedins. Historically Bonino outscores Sutter, but isn't that much worse than him defensively. Bonino is more skilled than Sutter, but Sutter is a better skater. So what? Having good hands or size or speed are all tools you use to outscore your opponent. Bonino and Sutter are pretty even players IMO with Bonino being slightly better. They get the same job done in different ways, but Bonino gets more done.

Think he is missed on the PK???

Bonino and Richardson both played the PK, and did so well. Nobody is arguing that Sutter isn't a valuable player, it's just we overpaid for him by a bit and gave him way too much money.

And Penguin fans said he was soft as butter. I didn't see that. I did not see an abrasive player but I saw a player who did not shy away from contact, I saw a player who does go to the boards to finish his check.

He's not soft as butter, but he's not gritty either. I think the soft as butter thing comes from the fact that people call him gritty due to his name and size when he isn't, so people compensate by saying he's soft as butter. He's grittier than Raymond and Baertschi, but not at the same level as guys like Burrows. He's taken the puck to the net a few times but doesn't seem to throw many hits.

 

[opendoor]

Sutter's effect on the PK is overstated. He's an excellent PKer, and having one of those in the lineup is obviously better than not having one, but he's not the difference between what we saw at the start of the year and what we've seen since.

If you divide the season to date into 1/3rds and compare the PK, the worst stretch by far is actually the middle one where Sutter was in the lineup for all but 2 of the games:

Games 1-9: 88%; 32.1 scoring chances against per 60

Games 10-18: 70%; 65.2 scoring chances against per 60

Games 19-27: 77%; 45.1 scoring chances against per 60


The scoring chance and high danger scoring chance rates are virtually identical if you compare the time with Sutter in the lineup to when he hasn't been. Basically the PK's problems have been far, far bigger than Sutter getting injured.

 

[Pip]

Did Gillis leave great center depth for Benning to inherit? He left the #2 center demanding out of here to a trade to one team and nothing behind. No young centers ready for a significant role because he couldn't draft any in 6 years.

I hated acquiring Bonino in trade, jury out on Sutter. Point is though, basically the same point the Benning blasters always overlook. The state of the team, the organizational depth was left in a worse state by the Gillis regime than most of you understand or are willing to admit.

No GM was going to come in here and fix it in 16 months. Benning took over and aging team in decline, with a void of good NHL prospects.

Gillis left plenty of options both down the middle and on the backend. Richardson, Santorelli, Matthias, Garrison, Stanton etc. Furthermore, Benning had ample opportunity to get better centres and defensemen, but chose not to. Getting guys like Prust, Dorsett, Miller, Sbisa, Sutter, Vey Baertschi all hurt our centre and defensive depth,.

 

[Cupless44]

Gillis left plenty of options both down the middle and on the backend. Richardson, Santorelli, Matthias, Garrison, Stanton etc. Furthermore, Benning had ample opportunity to get better centres and defensemen, but chose not to. Getting guys like Prust, Dorsett, Miller, Sbisa, Sutter, Vey Baertschi all hurt our centre and defensive depth,.

Seriously?

You just listed 3 journeymen ...Richardson, Santorelli, Matthias. 3 journeymen who will continue to bounce around the league on short term contracts on 4th lines....You just claimed those 3 middling depth centres as good depth behind Henrik Sedin....this after Gillis had been in the GM chair for 6 years.

Not sure what to say.

 

[SaltyKesler]

Regime apologists are already claiming that Sutter's injury has derailed the season....but gimme a break....guy wasn't actually lighting it up when he went down....and Desjardins couldn't find any wingers to play with him either.....it's shocking really where the 'Nucks find themselves in the middle....McCann wasn't even supposed to be here and Cracknell was a Utica signing who willed his way on to the roster....and now that Horvat has hit the wall, it's Sedin or bust....this tire-fire really belongs to Jimbo...He had to let Richardson and Mathias walk for cap reasons and then watch his other "big signing" Vey morph into an AHL journeyman.

How much was Matthias commanding? I heard he apparently took a hometown discount while signing with TO and because the Babcock factor

 

[sting101]

Ever play dominos?

It's clear that Sutter was never going to replace Kesler's 41 goal season (either was Kesler btw). It's also clear that Horvat isn't quite ready to take on the 2nd line C role. Sutter was/is the stop gap in Horvat's transition. His injury has forced Horvat and McCann into roles they are not quite ready for.

I find it funny that the collective was moaning so strongly at JB for not going fast enough to a youth movement but when he is forced to go more quickly, that same collective is moaning about lack of depth...

Good Post...so true.

In the pre season Horvat was already anointed the 40-50 pt 2C around here while JB cautioned about the sophomore slump and increased responsibilities being hard to handle.

Sutter was a huge loss because it coincided with Horvat hitting rock bottom from what I've seen of his game this last month. Add the fact that Sutter is our best penalty killer...we've seen the results there.

 

[SaltyKesler]

Good Post...so true.

In the pre season Horvat was already anointed the 40-50 pt 2C around here while JB cautioned about the sophomore slump and increased responsibilities being hard to handle.

Sutter was a huge loss because it coincided with Horvat hitting rock bottom from what I've seen of his game this last month.

What kills me is that people are OK with Horvat struggling as 2C because he's young, and same with McCann, because they're YOUNG....:.............


But on a side not, Sutter has been outproducing Bonino despite Bonino playing more games, and playing with guys like Kunitz, Hornqvist, and Bennett

 

[Toxic0n]

Sutter was/is the stop gap in Horvat's transition.

A 6 year, 4.3 million "stop gap" with a retroactive NTC?