Player Discussion Brandon Sutter. Defensive Center. One More Year Remaining at $4.375 AAV (w/ M-NTC).

[deckercky]

Gaudette was a rookie. He should get better defensively and be able to handle less sheltered minutes.

Much of the slack should be dealt with structurally - rather than rely on your 3rd and 4th line as your hard matchup defensive lines, the Canucks should rely on strength to strength matchups with Pettersson and Miller matched against other top lines. That, along with Horvat's defensive minutes, should allow our third line to play relatively balanced minutes, which is more appropriate for Gaudette to handle.

The Canucks' current hard defensive bottom 6 is a function of relying on Sutter and Beagle as bottom 6 centers, who aren't useful in any kind of offensive situations.

I have no issue with keeping Sutter though - Sutter and Gaudette could turn out to be a pretty useful 3A/3B setup if Gaudette takes the next step.

 

[VanJack]

Gaudette looked pretty redundant to me in the playoffs..

Except that Gaudette is making $900,000 and even with a raise, probably won't get more than $1.2m.

Sutter, on the other hand is on the last year of a bloated $4.4m contract. Relative to what he produces, in a cap world that's the equivalent of a 'back hole' not 'a gaping hole' .

If you don't like Gaudette, they could rescue someone off the NHL waiver-wire, scrap-heap, who could bring everything Sutter brings to the table but at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Regal]

trading Sutter leaves a gaping hole at 3c. You may believe he’s a 4c, but on our roster he’s a 3c because Gaudette can’t hack it in that role and neither can Beagle.

The cap space he frees up to bring back Tanev, Marky or Toffoli does nothing to address that hole.

If, on the other hand, your suggesting we spend Sutter’s salary to sign someone like Girgenson, I’m more on board with that.

Playing Sutter also leaves a gaping hole at 3C. He's barely above a replacement-level player. He can't handle top defensive assignments anyway so might as well play Gaudette for far less who can bring a few more points. The team is almost certainly not going to be a contender next year, so a matchup 3C can be addressed later.

Also, speaking of Buffalo UFAs, Johan Larsson would be a good target as well if they did free up room and he came cheapish

 

[Teflon Jim]

I won't say it's the consensus. I would say it's 50/50. I have people message me directly and telling me how LAZY Sutter is, What a horrible game he played, bad play

I think the results say the bottom six held their own in the playoffs and Sutter worked well .
His only problem is he's not staying healthy enough but he is a legit nhl player from what I've watched and you if you need the opinion of someone else about him then you have never really watched him to make any kind of judgement, obviously.

 

[StreetHawk]

Except that Gaudette is making $900,000 and even with a raise, probably won't get more than $1.2m.

Sutter, on the other hand is on the last year of a bloated $4.4m contract. Relative to what he produces, in a cap world that's the equivalent of a 'back hole' not 'a gaping hole' .

If you don't like Gaudette, they could rescue someone off the NHL waiver-wire, scrap-heap, who could bring everything Sutter brings to the table but at a fraction of the cost.

$1.2 million? Troy Terry from Anaheim got $1.45 mill per for 3 seasons with NHL point totals well below Gaudette. The key for the Ducks was the 3 year term. They have the cap space to go higher in the hopes he flashes some NCAA/AHL scoring numbers at the NHL level.

Anaheim did the same thing with Ritchie holding out for a 3 year term and locking him in. This is something that the Canucks should explore with Gaudette.

Moving Sutter, along with any of Pearson, Sven, Benn, etc. is fine so long as the Canucks are lined up to extend Petey and Hughes and not use any cap savings from these guys on anyone with term until they take care of their cornerstones first.

 

[Regal]

I think the results say the bottom six held their own in the playoffs and Sutter worked well .
His only problem is he's not staying healthy enough but he is a legit nhl player from what I've watched and you if you need the opinion of someone else about him then you have never really watched him to make any kind of judgement, obviously.

Sutter in the playoffs had a 37.8% CF, a 37.4% xGF, a 34.78 SF, and a 35.46% HDCF. He only was on for one more goal against than for, but that was largely due to goaltending. Over the long haul, the team can't expect to be successful with those types of numbers.

 

[Regal]

Sutter led the Canucks in 5 on 5 points in the stl series with 4 and one of the better penalty killers in the playoffs. People saying he was horrible in the playoffs are out to lunch.

Regular season and playoffs combined. Sutter 5 on 5 ppg was actually higher than Gaudette.

Some people get confuse about the difference between a bad contract vs a bad player. He definitely has a bad contract but he is not a bad player.

If Benning willing to keep 50% of the salary. He should be able trade him without giving an asset. But then again calculating the player that replaces Sutter. You won't be saving much cap space.

Sutter had a handful of decent games in the playoffs and was absolutely awful in the rest. Caved in in possession, soft on the puck, lazy on the backcheck and one of the worst players I've ever seen at clearing the zone.

 

[David71]

trade sutter without rentention. package up with the rest or go for 1 for 1 kinda deal. find a cheaper 3rd C via f.a beagle as your 4th.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Except that Gaudette is making $900,000 and even with a raise, probably won't get more than $1.2m.

Sutter, on the other hand is on the last year of a bloated $4.4m contract. Relative to what he produces, in a cap world that's the equivalent of a 'back hole' not 'a gaping hole' .

If you don't like Gaudette, they could rescue someone off the NHL waiver-wire, scrap-heap, who could bring everything Sutter brings to the table but at a fraction of the cost.

We're all very well aware that the constantly injured Sutter makes far too much. for that,.there's absolutely no debate...Sutter had a great series against the Wild, some of his best hockey as a Canuck..He was a key contributor in the series against the Wild, which got the Canucks into the playoffs.. (Gaudette was in the press box after a poor game #1..and saw limited action throughout the entire playoffs).

I don't have a problem with Gaudette...(I'm a fan), but the playoffs quickly separates who is ready to play at that level, and who isnt.

The last thing on anybody's mind is salaries during the playoffs.

 

[F A N]

I think that a healthy Sutter at the deadline is worth a 3rd and potentially a 2nd. But if we can trade Sutter in a salary dump we definitely should.

When we acquired Sutter, he was a 26 year old right shot C who rarely missed a game and can produce 20+ goals and 30+ points. He's the type of player whose offense wasn't reliant on linemates (he doesn't make his linemates better either). He also has played well in the playoffs.

The Sutter today is not the same player. He's now 31 and injuries have caused him to decline. He's not even the good skater he used to be but players tend to come back slowly from sports hernia surgery.

I don't doubt that Sutter can go to another team, manage to stay healthy, and put together an 18+ goal 30+ point season. He's just not part of the team's future and I don't trust him to stay healthy.

 

[Diversification]

Suter was injured for huge chunks of the season. Gaudette held up fine in the 3C role during the regular season. His deficiencies were highlighted more in the playoff than the regular season. I think that’s something you look to address during the deadline.

A 3C on this roster has to absorb a lot of dzone starts and tough minutes in general. Gaudette is bad at both of those things. Faceoffs - not good. Defensive boardwork - weak, and that's being generous. Defensive awareness - below average. And doesn't PK either.

I understand that people are not happy with Sutter, but sometimes the grass is not greener on the other side. What we need is an upgrade in that position, not a round peg square hole scenario with a player like Gaudette who is clearly tracking as a middle 6 winger.

 

[Hit the post]

Sutter has been mostly horrible for a while now with the odd small periods of acceptable play. I’ve been cutting him a lot of slack because he DID have a solid season or two a few years ago. But again, that was a few years ago for us. He’s pretty much done now imho. Can’t be relied upon to handle a defensive center assignment for a prolonged period of time to the point a player like Horvat - who let’s face it - handling tough defensive assignments isn’t exactly his forte - is often given that duty. Gaudette is even worse at that duty leaving a Green with not many options. Well there is the soon to be 35 year old 3 million cap hit 4th line center Beagle who we’re stuck with another two seasons. But Gillis!

Sure some team might take a flyer on Sutter at the trade deadline but at that point, we’ll have eaten up much of his cap hit to limit the cap benefits of dumping him.

 

[mossey3535]

Again, we somehow need to ride these guys out until we get rid of them and upgrade. Sadly, you could get castoffs who will deliver more than these overpriced players have so far.

 

[Canucks1096]

If people want to get rid of Sutter because of the cap, overpaid, also not in the lineup all the time. Fair enough, no argument here.

But the fact remains with the exception of the pp. Sutter has been a better player. Ppg higher 5 on 5 than Gaudette if you combined regular season and playoffs. Better defensively, faceoff? Big part of pk. Also Sutter doesn't need to be sheltered like Gaudette. With Gaudette in the lineup you sacirifce some offence from the 2nd line because Horvat needs to take more Dzone faceoffs.

 

[VancouverJagger]

I hope Christmas comes early and we trade this pylon and his horrible contract. Calling him useless is an affront to useless people.

He's been grossly overpaid from day #1. It will be a good day when he's no longer on our team.

 

[vanuck]

If people want to get rid of Sutter because of the cap, overpaid, also not in the lineup all the time. Fair enough, no argument here.

But the fact remains with the exception of the pp. Sutter has been a better player. Ppg higher 5 on 5 than Gaudette if you combined regular season and playoffs. Better defensively, faceoff? Big part of pk. Also Sutter doesn't need to be sheltered like Gaudette. With Gaudette in the lineup you sacirifce some offence from the 2nd line because Horvat needs to take more Dzone faceoffs.

I think you're neglecting to factor in TOI here. Gaudette's 5v5 P/60 this year was 1.84, while Sutter's was 1.58.

But why restrict it to just this year where Sutter only played 44 games? Let's use an even bigger sample so the data isn't skewed! We can use the last 2 regular seasons combined: from 2018-19 to 2019-20 Gaudette had a P/60 of 1.51, while for Sutter it was 1.25. There's no question who the better offensive player is at 5v5... it's not Sutter.

As to Sutter being better defensively, can you back that up? Dig into the underlying numbers and you'll see that the team actually gives up fewer shots/attempts per 60 with Gaudette on the ice - whether you look at CA, FA, SA, GA, xGA or HDCA. The claim that Sutter's the better defensive forward is simply not true.

Faceoffs don't have anywhere near as big of an effect on the game as you'd think, and this has been shown in the past. This goes for both players' production and possession numbers.

Gaudette also drives possession better, no matter if you look at normal percentages or relative to teammates. Not to mention the advantage goes to him for PP production. He's younger, cheaper and better on the forecheck.

So put all the above together... and it's pretty clear who the better overall player is - not just on the PP. People want to get rid of Sutter because he's overpaid, overrated and redundant (not to mention much older and injury-prone). To pretend that wanting to see him gone is unwarranted if it's not because of his cap hit and for any other reason is simply not reality.

 

[Canucks1096]

I think you're neglecting to factor in TOI here. Gaudette's 5v5 P/60 this year was 1.84, while Sutter's was 1.58.

But why restrict it to just this year where Sutter only played 44 games? Let's use an even bigger sample so the data isn't skewed! We can use the last 2 regular seasons combined: from 2018-19 to 2019-20 Gaudette had a P/60 of 1.51, while for Sutter it was 1.25. There's no question who the better offensive player is at 5v5... it's not Sutter.

As to Sutter being better defensively, can you back that up? Dig into the underlying numbers and you'll see that the team actually gives up fewer shots/attempts per 60 with Gaudette on the ice - whether you look at CA, FA, SA, GA, xGA or HDCA. The claim that Sutter's the better defensive forward is simply not true.

Faceoffs don't have anywhere near as big of an effect on the game as you'd think, and this has been shown in the past. This goes for both players' production and possession numbers.

Gaudette also drives possession better, no matter if you look at normal percentages or relative to teammates. Not to mention the advantage goes to him for PP production. He's younger, cheaper and better on the forecheck.

So put all the above together... and it's pretty clear who the better overall player is - not just on the PP. People want to get rid of Sutter because he's overpaid, overrated and redundant (not to mention much older and injury-prone). To pretend that wanting to see him gone is unwarranted if it's not because of his cap hit and for any other reason is simply not reality.

I think you're neglecting zone starts, linemates, competition. If you subscribe to the athletic, there is an article in there that confirm Gaudette gets one if most sheltered mins in the nhl. I think this more than makes up for the p60. The fact remains Sutter has a better ppg. Because he gets such sheltered mins, all those analytics doesn't mean much or anything.

Are you for Real? You're debating Gaudette is better defensively? Lol, even all the non Sutter fans out there will not debate Gaudette is better defensively than Sutter. Pretend you were coach, if you had to pick Gaudette or Sutter to be on the PK or the last min of the game. Your answer will be Sutter, don't deny that. What a silly debate.

Sure Gaudette did well on the 2nd pp unit. Sutter does well on the pk, I think that makes for it.

When the game got to another level. Gaudette could handle it and wad a healthy scratch and pointless in playoffs. Gaudette couldn't even outscored Beagle.

Like I said, if you want to get rid of Sutter because of cap and he always injured. Fair enough, no argument here. As of righy now Sutter is still the better player except on the pp.

 

[Hit the post]

Meh, they both suck without the puck (though Sutter sucks less). At least Gaudette is cheap. Sutter means potentially a guy like Toffoli or Tanev isn’t re-signed doubling down his uselessness.

Sad thing is, he's just the third member of the great Benning's boy band: The overpaid bums trio - Eriksson, Beagle, a noballz Sutter. $13 million+ of cap space dead cap space. All have at least partial NTC's (their **** contract makes them pretty much full NTC's ).

 

[tantalum]

When you are having arguments over a handful of players that tend to be framed not as "who is the best?" but rather "who isn't the worst?" you have an issue....

 

[xtra]

At the end of the day IN A CAP WORLD what matters is your productivity compared to cap hit.

Is sutter in a vacuum a better player than gaudette? Yes marginally

is sutter a better deal for his cap hit compared to Gaudette? No,

then it’s not a debate who to keep...


If Brandon sutter was making 925k no one would be complaining about him at all he’d be another whatever but ina. Cap world you can’t separate the cap from
The player.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Retain 1.375 Million and he should be moveable at 3 Million with only 1 year left.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Sutter in the playoffs had a 37.8% CF, a 37.4% xGF, a 34.78 SF, and a 35.46% HDCF. He only was on for one more goal against than for, but that was largely due to goaltending. Over the long haul, the team can't expect to be successful with those types of numbers.

Those are awful numbers, Sutter has no jump left in his game, he was having a lot of trouble simply getting the puck out of the zone.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Delete

 

[Fatass]

Delete

Agreed. Love to “delete” Sutter.

 

[Hit the post]

Agreed. Love to “delete” Sutter.

Sad thing is, he's actually not even the worst or 2nd worst contract on the team.