Player Discussion Brandon Sutter. Defensive Center. One More Year Remaining at $4.375 AAV (w/ M-NTC).

[VNCVR]

I would think the smarter player would be more flexible than the faster player but thats me.

smarter doesn't make you more flexible in where you can slot in a lineup and still add value. high iq limited by slow feet, lack of urgency/passiveness. He's a methodical/cerebral player and that often doesn't work when playing with players who don't play like you and if you aren't skilled enough to play high up in the lineup, it's often not as beneficial. He's a cerebral 30 pt player who needs to play with fast and smart players. You don't have a big selection on a teams third line. Sutter's ability during his past years here is clearly masked by his lack of health and being on a rebuilding team and I personally feel like it's too obvious to really put in more time into this. I understand exactly why this misconception. I mean, Sutter had injury problems and played for a struggling team and Bonino played on better teams , with amazing players that happened to be good fits for him. Results are going to make most people think a certain way, especially when that GM screwed everything else up. It is what it is. If my posts didn't make it clear why their trade value was relatively equal, I am at a lost.

 

[iceburg]

Wow...there are some weird takes in this thread...

I would say the following is indisputable:

-Bonino ended up being the better value

-Sutter’s extension did end up costing NHL assets. It was one of a series of bad contracts that culminated in losing Tanev, Markstrom, Stecher, and Tofolli this past summer not to mention impacting many decision along the way because lack of cap flexibility.

-only now, with weeks left, is his contract potentially tradable.

Maybe I’m blind but I can’t really see any credible arguments to the contrary.


And for those who don’t think moving down 10 slots out of the second round is significant....see Nils Hoglander.

 

[VNCVR]

Who has said they are far apart? Sounds rather strawmanish.

Sutter is the faster player. Bonino is the smarter player.

You keep going back to this "well Sutter just fits" argument but theres no evidence of this.

As for defensive prowess Bonino has been voted into 12th, 13th and 26th place for Selke with the 12 and 13 coming in the last two years. Sutter has been voted into 20th and 24th place all before he came to Vancouver.

Im legit at a loss for some of your arguments here. Seems to center around Sutter is faster and a "better character guy" and Bonino is the worse of the two if hes not playing with Kessel.

Well to each their own, I am reading the posts and it seems very clear that people think it was a big loss and using things like 'so clearly a better player' and no excuse and thinking people that disagree are out to lunch implies this.

sutter fit what the team was going for, getting faster and grittier. how well do you remember those playoffs? that team played with so much passiveness and NO urgency and bonino was one of those players. They didn't like what he brought in the playoffs, in the fit on that team. Sutter answered alot of what they were seeking, but sadly it didn't move the needle because they were trending down fast

Nothing I mentioned has brought up character.

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Sutter isnt gritty nor is he urgent. Lol

 

[VNCVR]

Wow...there are some weird takes in this thread...

I would say the following is indisputable:

-Bonino ended up being the better value

-Sutter’s extension did end up costing NHL assets. It was one of a series of bad contracts that culminated in losing Tanev, Markstrom, Stecher, and Tofolli this past summer not to mention impacting many decision along the way because lack of cap flexibility.

-only now, with weeks left, is his contract potentially tradable.

Maybe I’m blind but I can’t really see any credible arguments to the contrary.

Honestly why do I even bother posting, lol

Yes, Bonino fit in better with Hagelin and Kessel on that third line in Pittsburgh as they were a cup contender and Sutter did not perform as well in his given situation. Terrible trade. lol

team fit/open market value/teams competitiveness/health of player/player flexibility, etc, none of this matters. F$*# context. That takes effort to analyze/consider and BENNING SUCKS

Ill leave you guys at it in your state of depression. When people are so hurt by the current state of the team, they will always look at things in the most negative light possible. It's like trying to have a conversation about why things ended with a gf just after breaking up with her

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Wow...there are some weird takes in this thread...

I would say the following is indisputable:

-Bonino ended up being the better value

-Sutter’s extension did end up costing NHL assets. It was one of a series of bad contracts that culminated in losing Tanev, Markstrom, Stecher, and Tofolli this past summer not to mention impacting many decision along the way because lack of cap flexibility.

-only now, with weeks left, is his contract potentially tradable.

Maybe I’m blind but I can’t really see any credible arguments to the contrary.


And for those who don’t think moving down 10 slots out of the second round is significant....see Nils Hoglander.

Yes.

And as I mentioned in my post earlier whats most damning is Benning decided to target Bonino then after year decided he was too slow (same as with Clendenning) after 6 months.

You would have to question his pro scouting ability after this. Like if they arent a fit and are too slow why did you target them.

Then traded those two and a pick for Sutter while trying to sell Sutter as some sort of "better fit" culture character.

AND then doubled down by signing Sutter.


We would at a minimum be in the exact same place had we kept Bonino and by extension Clandenning or better yet Forsling (future trade throw in etc).

 

[Lonny Bohonos]

Ill leave you guys at it in your state of depression. When people are so hurt by the current state of the team, they will always look at things in the most negative light possible. It's like trying to have a conversation about why things ended with a gf just after breaking up with her

So not only are you a hockey savant who "doesnt need history" or whatever but your also a psychologist.

Cool. Thanks.

 

[4Twenty]

On hockeysfuture, when someone doesn't really have much of an argument. They bring up team results. You bring up team results into the argument is ridiculous. You do realize hockey is a team game.

If you disagree, that is fine but you're not showing me anything to prove your point. I killed all your points.

You bring fringe prospects into the conversation. I highly doubt you think those players will make much of an impact.

You keep talking about the 1.9 M. Canucks were not in cap trouble during those two years. Spending that extra few million on Sutter didn't impact them in bringing in another player.

I think you realize now that Bonino can only produce solid numbers if he has middle 6 to second line wingers to play with. With Van he doesn't have that option so if he stay in Vancouver he wouldn't of produce more.

If you look at their ppg since leaving Van. Bonino is at 0.43 ppg which equal to 35 points per 82 game schedule. Suttrt is 0.38 ppg which 31 points per 82 game schedule. Considering Bonino has much better linemates and more pp time. Yet only outscored by 4 points per 82 game schedule.

People make it sound like the Canucks traded a 1st line center.

The trade ended up being a who cares type of trade.

You calling Jarnkrok a 4th line player to help your argument is ridiculous.

Have a nice day.

Nashville ice time ranks by forward in 19/20:

13. Austin Watson
10. Craig Smith
9. Scissons
7. Jarnkrok

The Canucks trading a better player who is cheaper for a more expensive worse player with a longer contract will impact the teams future. Ignore it if you want. It’s true. Or are you also arguing Eriksson has no impact either?


Fringe prospects?

You killed my points? Cute.

A 4th liner is worse than a 2/3 tweener especially when you factor in salary and acquisition cost. Having the better player is always better. Especially when tnst player can do all the same things but plays better with actual difference makers.

A who cares type trade? This is the 6th season of having one of these players.

You’re still discussing it 6 years later but who cares?

I think it’s ridiculous to think a 4th liner with a 4th line skill set making 2nd line money is a nothing issue when the 2/3 tweener as you say could play and perform with 2/3 tweezers for hakf the price.

In Vancouver he would’ve plated with Vrbata. They didn’t even try Sutter there they had to try him as the Sedins RW early on. Remember?

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

The good news is the Radio Heads say both Sutter and Beagle are apparently perceived by some prognosticators outside of Van to be having solid seasons.

If Ownership/management weren't fixated on haemorrhaging assets with no return in a vain attempt to get eliminated in the playoffs, they would realize this is the time to take the trash to the thrift store to what it's worth.

 

[4Twenty]

Focussing on a nothing trade? Your GM who you’ve hated 95% of his moves but spend 95% of your posts defending and excusing thought the trade was for a foundational piece that would take the Canucks to the next level.

Pittsburgh improved greatly with the move. Had they kept Sutter its most likely they never win those cups.

Sutter can’t play with good players and can’t produce with them either. Actively makes his line mates worse c

 

[iceburg]

Honestly why do I even bother posting, lol

Yes, Bonino fit in better with Hagelin and Kessel on that third line in Pittsburgh as they were a cup contender and Sutter did not perform as well in his given situation. Terrible trade. lol

team fit/open market value/teams competitiveness/health of player/player flexibility, etc, none of this matters. F$*# context. That takes effort to analyze/consider and BENNING SUCKS

Ill leave you guys at it in your state of depression. When people are so hurt by the current state of the team, they will always look at things in the most negative light possible. It's like trying to have a conversation about why things ended with a gf just after breaking up with her

So your response is that I’m just a depressed Canucks fan with my view clouded by my depression. Come on...that’s a little lazy.

 

[4Twenty]

Sutter was so bad on the 2C and 3C roles when he arrived (can’t play and produce with good players) they were using him on the top line RW where he was also weak.

 

[4Twenty]

Honestly why do I even bother posting, lol

Yes, Bonino fit in better with Hagelin and Kessel on that third line in Pittsburgh as they were a cup contender and Sutter did not perform as well in his given situation. Terrible trade. lol

team fit/open market value/teams competitiveness/health of player/player flexibility, etc, none of this matters. F$*# context. That takes effort to analyze/consider and BENNING SUCKS

Ill leave you guys at it in your state of depression. When people are so hurt by the current state of the team, they will always look at things in the most negative light possible. It's like trying to have a conversation about why things ended with a gf just after breaking up with her

This is a really sad and pathetic response.

More expensive.

Cost more assets.

Less productive.

Doesn’t play well with others.

Pittsburgh improved considerably with the move.

Bonino has been cheaper the whole time even after the extension and can play with 1st to 4th liners and succeed.

Sutter treads water.

 

[vanuck]

There's a reason Sutter has never really been a viable 2C throughout his career, even away from PIT under Crosby/Malkin and before his injuries. It didn't work in Vancouver and IIRC the Pens tried it years ago when they thought of stacking their top line with Sid and Geno.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

If he was making 950k he would be a decent 4th line C.

 

[Hit the post]

So not only are you a hockey savant who "doesnt need history" or whatever but your also a psychologist.

Cool. Thanks.

I am the board’s idiot savant. Minus the savant part.

 

[MS]

Honestly why do I even bother posting, lol

Yes, Bonino fit in better with Hagelin and Kessel on that third line in Pittsburgh as they were a cup contender and Sutter did not perform as well in his given situation. Terrible trade. lol

team fit/open market value/teams competitiveness/health of player/player flexibility, etc, none of this matters. F$*# context. That takes effort to analyze/consider and BENNING SUCKS

Ill leave you guys at it in your state of depression. When people are so hurt by the current state of the team, they will always look at things in the most negative light possible. It's like trying to have a conversation about why things ended with a gf just after breaking up with her

Bonino has literally fit in better in every situation he's been in his entire career that Sutter has fit in an *any* situation he's been in his entire career.

I honestly can't believe someone is defending this monumentally stupid trade.

 

[MS]

I'll re-post what I've posted on this trade in the past.

__________

The chain of logic here is so bad it's actually difficult to comprehend.

The move was made because :

1) They wanted to develop Bo Horvat as a defensive center (WRONG) and felt the best way to do this would be to bring in a better offensive center to 'take the pressure off having to score' and bury him in tough defensive minutes (IDIOTIC).

2) They felt that Nick Bonino was too slow to be effective in the playoffs (HILARIOUSLY WRONG).

Then, they identified Brandon Sutter, a guy who once went through an entire season with 1 primary assist, as that offensive upgrade on Bonino (WRONG) and decided that swapping Sutter for Bonino would be worth the massive difference in cap hit (WRONG).

Then, despite the fact that they were trading a better player on a better contract for a worse player on a worse contract to a team in cap hell with no leverage, somehow put themselves in the position where they added assets and draft picks to the transaction (WRONG).

Then, before ever watching the player play and seeing how he fit into their roster, they gave him a massive extension which was the biggest contract ever for a guy who had never hit 40 points, with a retroactive NTC (WRONG).

__________

Basically, they took themselves from a position where they had an ideal situation with Horvat-Bonino as their #2-3 centers with Bonino taking a defensive load to free up a young player to play some softer minutes, downgraded on Bonino at both ends of the rink, nearly tripled their cap hit, chained themselves to an albatross contract, and buried Horvat in defensive minutes which nearly wrecked him the following season. And then watched Bonino nearly win a Conn Smythe while Sutter has never played a playoff game as a Canuck. You couldn't f*** something up so thoroughly in so many different ways if you were trying. They literally got every single thing about this trade wrong.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Nick Bonino in the 2015 playoffs against the Flames, was awful..After we were eliminated, I was fully expecting to hear that he was playing through an injury.

 

[MS]

Nick Bonino in the 2015 playoffs against the Flames, was awful..After we were eliminated, I was fully expecting to hear that he was playing through an injury.

This is why you don't make dumb, rash decisions based on tiny sample sizes and the fallacy that playoff hockey is somehow totally different than regular season hockey.

For the record, I thought he was 'meh' but in a poor situation with a pouting Vrbata as a linemate and constantly on the ice with the Sbieksa disaster pairing.

 

[NuxFan09]

The good news is the Radio Heads say both Sutter and Beagle are apparently perceived by some prognosticators outside of Van to be having solid seasons.

If Ownership/management weren't fixated on haemorrhaging assets with no return in a vain attempt to get eliminated in the playoffs, they would realize this is the time to take the trash to the thrift store to what it's worth.

If both Sutter and Beagle have value in the league it's better to trade Beagle and that extra year on his contract. Sutter's deal is up this year anyway and as much as we all want these playerse to all just go away, you can't trade both. The team legit needs at least one of them to handle PK and 4th line duties. They're NHL centres after all, of which the organization doesn't exactly possess in abundance.

But yes, if they have value then get Beagle off the books. Just remember that the front office then has the task of figuring out who is going to anchor the bottom 6 lines and PK units because that sure as hell won't be Pettersson or Horvat (no doubt Pettersson could do it but do we want him to?). Not defending Beagle or Sutter here, just painting a very real picture.

 

[Javaman]

I'll re-post what I've posted on this trade in the past.

__________

The chain of logic here is so bad it's actually difficult to comprehend.

The move was made because :

1) They wanted to develop Bo Horvat as a defensive center (WRONG) and felt the best way to do this would be to bring in a better offensive center to 'take the pressure off having to score' and bury him in tough defensive minutes (IDIOTIC).

2) They felt that Nick Bonino was too slow to be effective in the playoffs (HILARIOUSLY WRONG).

Then, they identified Brandon Sutter, a guy who once went through an entire season with 1 primary assist, as that offensive upgrade on Bonino (WRONG) and decided that swapping Sutter for Bonino would be worth the massive difference in cap hit (WRONG).

Then, despite the fact that they were trading a better player on a better contract for a worse player on a worse contract to a team in cap hell with no leverage, somehow put themselves in the position where they added assets and draft picks to the transaction (WRONG).

Then, before ever watching the player play and seeing how he fit into their roster, they gave him a massive extension which was the biggest contract ever for a guy who had never hit 40 points, with a retroactive NTC (WRONG).

__________

Basically, they took themselves from a position where they had an ideal situation with Horvat-Bonino as their #2-3 centers with Bonino taking a defensive load to free up a young player to play some softer minutes, downgraded on Bonino at both ends of the rink, nearly tripled their cap hit, chained themselves to an albatross contract, and buried Horvat in defensive minutes which nearly wrecked him the following season. And then watched Bonino nearly win a Conn Smythe while Sutter has never played a playoff game as a Canuck. You couldn't f*** something up so thoroughly in so many different ways if you were trying. They literally got every single thing about this trade wrong.

In before bandwagonesque. Sutter did hit 40 points (in 72 games) with Carolina back in 09/10 at the age of 21, but your point still stands - it was a brutally bad contract. That was Sutter's career high: he never did it again in the next 5 years before Benning traded for him. As usual, Benning's pro scouting is always about 4 or 5 years behind the times.

 

[Canucks1096]

Bonino has literally fit in better in every situation he's been in his entire career that Sutter has fit in an *any* situation he's been in his entire career.

I honestly can't believe someone is defending this monumentally stupid trade.

Please do some research. First 40 games in 2016 season. 10 points in his first 40 games. The same level linemates that Sutter had the year befoee. Btw Sutter got 21 goals with type of linemates. Then a top 5 RW comes to his line and saved his horrible season. It is proven Bonino needs quick speedy wingers to produce.

2018 season Sutter was clearly better than Bonino as well. That is with worst linemates and lots of dzone starts.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

This is why you don't make dumb, rash decisions based on tiny sample sizes and the fallacy that playoff hockey is somehow totally different than regular season hockey.

For the record, I thought he was 'meh' but in a poor situation with a pouting Vrbata as a linemate and constantly on the ice with the Sbieksa disaster pairing.

I said he wasn't good in the playoffs (he was practically anonymous), doesnt mean he wasn't effective during the regular season..?

Anyway,I'm not convinced Bonino would have moved the needle that much even if he hadn't been traded..It was painfully obvious that the twins were in rapid decline, and there wasn't a sufficient amount of young impact talent on the roster.

 

[MS]

Please do some research. First 40 games in 2016 season. 10 points in his first 40 games. The same level linemates that Sutter had the year befoee. Btw Sutter got 21 goals with type of linemates. Then a top 5 RW comes to his line and saved his horrible season. It is proven Bonino needs quick speedy wingers to produce.

2018 season Sutter was clearly better than Bonino as well. That is with worst linemates and lots of dzone starts.

So, in Bonino's least productive situation ever ... he produced played at basically the same level as Sutter normally? Fascinating.

Bonino has produced on 4 different teams and only ever had Kessel on his line briefly. He's a flat-out better player than Brandon Sutter by a country mile. Again, it is incomprehensible that anyone could be defending this dumpster fire of a trade.