Player Discussion Brandon Sutter. Defensive Center. One More Year Remaining at $4.375 AAV (w/ M-NTC).

[Canucks1096]

Imagine if we'd just kept Bonino in the first place, and also kept our second round draft pick? Would we be any worse? Not likely. In fact you could argue we'd have been better. It turned out to be 'subtraction by addition' with Sutter.

And then Jimbo doubles down with a terrible four-year contract at $4.3m a season. Just another in a long line of dismal player management decisions.

Sutter for Bonino, it seem like it was a horrible trade but I don't think it would of make much of a difference if we kept Bonino and the 2nd round pick. Yes the 2nd round pick didn't make sense, but Canucks got a third round pick back. It was about 10 spots apart, between those 10 picks I don't believe there were a regular NHL player hat was picked.

Also Yes Bonino has some great playoffs and some solid 35 to 40 point season but the problem is that I dont believe he would gotten of anywhere close to that point range. The thing with Bonino is he is not a great skater, for him to produce he needs two fast middle 6 to top 6 wingers for him to play with to create more room for him. Without those wingers Bonino is no more than a 4th line center. First half 2015/2016 Bonino played mainly with 4th line players and was on pace for only 20 points in the first half season. Started to score more in the 2nd half when he got to play with Kessel and Haglin.

If Bonino didn't get traded, for the most part he would be playing with Archibald Gaunce Dorset Granlund, Megna. I don't think Bonino will get more than 20 to 25 point a season playing with those players. He won't playing with fast middle 6 to second line wingers in Van.

As of right now Sutter is still better than Gaudette

 

[4Twenty]

I’d take Dillon Dube over William Lockwood.
Dylan Gambrell and Carl Grundstron are both NHLers this season.

3 NHL players between the picks.

plus the wasted cap space and the contract that has limited the team.

not to mention Bonino has flat out been a better player and producer.

Won 2 cups playing the lineup position that Sutter couldn’t succeed in.


Bonino at $1.9m allows you to invest the extra $2m for better talent elsewhere.

somebody clearly doesn’t look at goal differentials.

 

[VanJack]

Completely overestimating guys like Sutter, Gudbranson, Beagle, Roussel etc. is the reason why the Canucks are currently in the salary cap pickle they're in.

I clearly remember Jimbo saying at the time that Sutter was "a legitimate second line center, and Gudbranson a legit top four d-man." Seems laughable now with the benefit of hindsight.....but I'm sure Benning actually believed it at the time.

The problem was that when confronted with overwhelming evidence that neither guy was anything like what was advertised, he still doubled down and signed both guys to four year extensions at over $4m per season.

It's like shooting yourself in the foot, and then to prove it hurts like hell, shoot yourself in the other foot.

 

[Canucks1096]

I’d take Dillon Dube over William Lockwood.
Dylan Gambrell and Carl Grundstron are both NHLers this season.

3 NHL players between the picks.

plus the wasted cap space and the contract that has limited the team.

not to mention Bonino has flat out been a better player and producer.

Won 2 cups playing the lineup position that Sutter couldn’t succeed in.


Bonino at $1.9m allows you to invest the extra $2m for better talent elsewhere.

somebody clearly doesn’t look at goal differentials.

I wrote I don't think there is a regular NHL player picked between those two picks. Two of them been healthy scratches this year. I will give you Dube, like I said the trade made very a little impact. Unless you think any of those players will make a big difference on the Canucks roster. Then the prospect picked made very little impact.

2015/2016 and 2016/2017 4 plus million vs 1.9 M. Correct me if I am wrong but don't believe Canucks were right up against the cap in those 2 seasons. Therefore they could of spent an extra few million but they didn't. Bonino was signed for 4 M after that contract. If Benning resigned Bonino to 4 M then the cap would of been similar to Sutter.

You can pump up Bonino all you want. Pits made a lot of changes that made them win back to back cups and wasn't just Bonino

Yes Bonino has produced more than Sutter but not when he was playing with 3rd and 4th line players.

If Bonino did't get traded and played Sutter role and played with Dorset Granlund Megna Gaunce Archibald. It is fair to say he wouldn't get anywhere close to 35 to 40 point seasons.

Btw Sutter had some good playoffs with Pits as well.

If I had to say it was good or bad trade. I probably would say it is bad trade but like I said it made very very very little impact

 

[VanJack]

I wrote I don't think there is a regular NHL player picked between those two picks. Two of them been healthy scratches this year. I will give you Dube, like I said the trade made very a little impact. Unless you think any of those players will make a big difference on the Canucks roster. Then the prospect picked made very little impact.

2015/2016 and 2016/2017 4 plus million vs 1.9 M. Correct me if I am wrong but don't believe Canucks were right up against the cap in those 2 seasons. Therefore they could of spent an extra few million but they didn't. Bonino was signed for 4 M after that contract. If Benning resigned Bonino to 4 M then the cap would of been similar to Sutter.

You can pump up Bonino all you want. Pits made a lot of changes that made them win back to back cups and wasn't just Bonino

Yes Bonino has produced more than Sutter but not when he was playing with 3rd and 4th line players.

If Bonino did't get traded and played Sutter role and played with Dorset Granlund Megna Gaunce Archibald. It is fair to say he wouldn't get anywhere close to 35 to 40 point seasons.

Btw Sutter had some good playoffs with Pits as well.

If I had to say it was good or bad trade. I probably would say it is bad trade but like I said it made very very very little impact

Pittsburgh traded Sutter for the simple reason that they weren't willing to pay him, with only year left on his deal at the time. They'd seen enough to know he wasn't anything close to being a second line center, even though he wanted to paid like one.

So they dumped him on the Canucks for Bonino, a second rounder and I believe Adam Clendening. They got their third line center in Bonino to play behind Crosby and Malkin on a cost-controlled $1.9m contract. And also picked up other assets.

So I agree, the trade had very little impact on the Canucks, other than the fact it marked the beginning of their ascent into salary cap hell. As for the Pens, it was a home-run.

 

[4Twenty]

If you don’t think the Sutter trade was impactful I just disagree.

Bonino being a similar producer with 3/4 liners but able to play and produce with top talents for less money is a plus not a negative.

Why was he effective in Nashville?


I can’t fathom thinking that trade doesn’t have a significant impact for where the team currently is.

 

[vanuck]

Yeah what a strange argument. Bonino is clearly the better player. We lost that trade, plain and simple, and paid extra just to get worse.

No need to try and justify it. It is what it is.

 

[Fatass]

If you don’t think the Sutter trade was impactful I just disagree.

Bonino being a similar producer with 3/4 liners but able to play and produce with top talents for less money is a plus not a negative.

Why was he effective in Nashville?


I can’t fathom thinking that trade doesn’t have a significant impact for where the team currently is.

It was a horrible trade then, and it Still is hurting us. I liked Bonino here, in the role he filled. Plus, he was on such a good contract, and we added a second. Just horrid asset management, and allocation of cap dollars by Benning.

 

[Pip]

Or we could have just sold Bonino for picks/prospects, with his contract you would have gotten good value back. Fill the hole with a cheap stopgap vet. Sutter was at his very best here a third line centre. Most of the time he was hardly that. Easily replaceable.

 

[4Twenty]

Or we could have just sold Bonino for picks/prospects, with his contract you would have gotten good value back. Fill the hole with a cheap stopgap vet. Sutter was at his very best here a third line centre. Most of the time he was hardly that. Easily replaceable.

Bonino’s cheap deal lined up perfectly with Horvat’s ELC. At his paltry $1.9m caphit he would’ve carried tons of value to a contender. Tampa paid 1sts for Coleman and Goodrow last year because they were cheap. Wouldn’t be surprised if they could’ve kept him until he was expiring and still got like a Toffoli-esque return.


It was an absolute debacle what it turned into.

 

[Canucks1096]

If you don’t think the Sutter trade was impactful I just disagree.

Bonino being a similar producer with 3/4 liners but able to play and produce with top talents for less money is a plus not a negative.

Why was he effective in Nashville?


I can’t fathom thinking that trade doesn’t have a significant impact for where the team currently is.

He was effective in Nashville was because the samething I been saying. He needs middle 6 to second line wingers to produce. His regular linemates for his 3 seasons was Smith Jarnkrok Watson Sissons. Smith is clearly a 2nd line winger. Jarnkrok is solid middle 6 to second line winger as well. Watson and Sissons are both solid third line players and can move up the lineup.

I don' think it' similar production with 3rd/4th line players. Last time Bonino played with Sutter level linemates ( not counting this season, too small of sample size ) he produce 10 points in 40 games stretch and that was first half of the season in Pits. Same level of linemates the year before Sutter got 21 plus goals with those linemates.

Bonino clearly the better player if he gets to play with solid linemates.

Sutter is better player with 3rd/4th line player. The Track record Bonino has in his career confirm that he wouldn't produce much with Sutter level linemates.

I agree it is a bad trade, however the exchange picks make very very limit since those players that are drafted in that range are nothing special.

The cap already gave my answer in my last post

 

[Canucks1096]

Bonino’s cheap deal lined up perfectly with Horvat’s ELC. At his paltry $1.9m caphit he would’ve carried tons of value to a contender. Tampa paid 1sts for Coleman and Goodrow last year because they were cheap. Wouldn’t be surprised if they could’ve kept him until he was expiring and still got like a Toffoli-esque return.


It was an absolute debacle what it turned into.

Come on, People been saying for all these years, Benning only got x amount of picks and you're using Benning could of got a 1st round pick as your argument. Wow

2017/2018 offseason was also the season Bothchford reported that 3 or 4 teams wanted Sutter. Benning didn't want to trade Sutter. H Sedin retired and Canucks were not sure if Petey can play center. If Bonino contract was up, most likely Benning try to resign Bonino.

 

[Canucks1096]

Pittsburgh traded Sutter for the simple reason that they weren't willing to pay him, with only year left on his deal at the time. They'd seen enough to know he wasn't anything close to being a second line center, even though he wanted to paid like one.

So they dumped him on the Canucks for Bonino, a second rounder and I believe Adam Clendening. They got their third line center in Bonino to play behind Crosby and Malkin on a cost-controlled $1.9m contract. And also picked up other assets.

So I agree, the trade had very little impact on the Canucks, other than the fact it marked the beginning of their ascent into salary cap hell. As for the Pens, it was a home-run.

If you agree the trade had very little impact. Then it's all good, since that is by main argument. I am not really debating who is the better player

Have a great day

 

[4Twenty]

He was effective in Nashville was because the samething I been saying. He needs middle 6 to second line wingers to produce. His regular linemates for his 3 seasons was Smith Jarnkrok Watson Sissons. Smith is clearly a 2nd line winger. Jarnkrok is solid middle 6 to second line winger as well. Watson and Sissons are both solid third line players and can move up the lineup.

I don' think it' similar production with 3rd/4th line players. Last time Bonino played with Sutter level linemates ( not counting this season, too small of sample size ) he produce 10 points in 40 games stretch and that was first half of the season in Pits. Same level of linemates the year before Sutter got 21 plus goals with those linemates.

Bonino clearly the better player if he gets to play with solid linemates.

Sutter is better player with 3rd/4th line player. The Track record Bonino has in his career confirm that he wouldn't produce much with Sutter level linemates.

I agree it is a bad trade, however the exchange picks make very very limit since those players that are drafted in that range are nothing special.

The cap already gave my answer in my last post

Who were the linemates Bonino struggled to produce with in that 10 in 40 stretch?

This is all semantics. Craig Smith is a 2/3 tweener. Jarnkrok, Watson, and Scissons closer to 4th liners.

A teams with $1.9m Center isn’t forced to have granlunds and archibalds.

 

[4Twenty]

Come on, People been saying for all these years, Benning only got x amount of picks and you're using Benning could of got a 1st round pick as your argument. Wow

2017/2018 offseason was also the season Bothchford reported that 3 or 4 teams wanted Sutter. Benning didn't want to trade Sutter. H Sedin retired and Canucks were not sure if Petey can play center. If Bonino contract was up, most likely Benning try to resign Bonino.

Even if they kept Bonino and signed him they’d be better off than having Sutter and the package they gave up to get him.

$1.9m players who can do what Bonino can (2cups as a key contributor) are valued by smart teams.

Also Bonino’s deal expired the season before you’re suggesting Benning turned down trades for Sutter. Ie it’s irrelevant.

 

[VanJack]

Trading Bonino who was on a cost-controlled, team friendly deal, for guy who wasn't even as good and then resigning him to a ridiculous $4.3 million four year contract-- really told you about everything you need to know about Benning's trade and UFA signings. It only got worse from there.

 

[RobertKron]

Trading Bonino who was on a cost-controlled, team friendly deal, for guy who wasn't even as good and then resigning him to a ridiculous $4.3 million four year contract-- really told you about everything you need to know about Benning's trade and UFA signings. It only got worse from there.

Moreover, they downgraded a draft pick, and included Clendening, who sucked - but who they had just acquired at the cost of a promising recent draftee.

For a guy who would basically fill the existing Brad Richardson's role for more money.

 

[Canucks1096]

Who were the linemates Bonino struggled to produce with in that 10 in 40 stretch?

This is all semantics. Craig Smith is a 2/3 tweener. Jarnkrok, Watson, and Scissons closer to 4th liners.

A teams with $1.9m Center isn’t forced to have granlunds and archibalds.

It was a combination of Fehr, Bennett, Piotnikov, Kuhnhackl. Please don't replay back and say their top 6 forwards.

Watson is not a middle 6 forward. Sorry I was thinking of Hartnell. When you were using Nashville as your argument. I don't think you even realize who Bonino played with in Nash. Now you do, so right now you're trying to convince that those linemates are not good to help your argument. Dude, Smith has a stretch of 20 plus goals in 5 out of the 6 seasons. Jarnkrok had 2 season of 0.5 points. Pearson and Hoglander has about 0.5 ppg. You won't think those two are 4th line players. Some season Scissons played 16 plus mins. For most part Bonino did play with middle 6 to top 6 forwards. Your Nash linemate argument is not valid.

Canucks were not up against the cap in those 2 seasons which means they could of used the remaining cap to improve Sutter linemates but they didn't which indicate the extra cap Canucks spent on Sutter had no impact on that season.

 

[TraderJim]

Trading Bonino who was on a cost-controlled, team friendly deal, for guy who wasn't even as good and then resigning him to a ridiculous $4.3 million four year contract-- really told you about everything you need to know about Benning's trade and UFA signings. It only got worse from there.

The Sbisa contract was plenty proof and that one was before Sutters (as far as I can recall).

 

[M2Beezy]

I wonder what 50% retention on this guy will get us at the TDL, maybe 4th round pick? 3rd?

 

[Canucks1096]

Even if they kept Bonino and signed him they’d be better off than having Sutter and the package they gave up to get him.

$1.9m players who can do what Bonino can (2cups as a key contributor) are valued by smart teams.

Also Bonino’s deal expired the season before you’re suggesting Benning turned down trades for Sutter. Ie it’s irrelevant.

Just friendly reminder, we are not having an argument on who won the trade. I confirmed already that Sutter wasn't a good trade but I am debating that it has very little impact on the Canucks.

Yes 1.9 M for a center like Bonino are smart valued by smart teams but we are not debating that.

You do realize we are both playing what if game. What if the trade never happened, you're playing what if Bonino didn't get traded and Benning could of got a 1st round pick for him. Now I am saying most likely that wouldn't of happened because Benning doesn't get draft pickz for players. Also Canucks were so thin at centre so most likely Benning wouldn't traded Bonino and they resign him.

Only argument you really have is they could of draft a better prospect. The prospects you listed I highly doubt you even know much about them. All you probably did was go on db and saw them play games. You listed as your argument. Sure they would of better off with one of those prospects but wouldn't make hardly difference if they were in the lineup.

Have a great day.

 

[Nona Di Giuseppe]

Sutter for Bonino, it seem like it was a horrible trade but I don't think it would of make much of a difference if we kept Bonino and the 2nd round pick. Yes the 2nd round pick didn't make sense, but Canucks got a third round pick back. It was about 10 spots apart, between those 10 picks I don't believe there were a regular NHL player hat was picked.

Also Yes Bonino has some great playoffs and some solid 35 to 40 point season but the problem is that I dont believe he would gotten of anywhere close to that point range. The thing with Bonino is he is not a great skater, for him to produce he needs two fast middle 6 to top 6 wingers for him to play with to create more room for him. Without those wingers Bonino is no more than a 4th line center. First half 2015/2016 Bonino played mainly with 4th line players and was on pace for only 20 points in the first half season. Started to score more in the 2nd half when he got to play with Kessel and Haglin.

If Bonino didn't get traded, for the most part he would be playing with Archibald Gaunce Dorset Granlund, Megna. I don't think Bonino will get more than 20 to 25 point a season playing with those players. He won't playing with fast middle 6 to second line wingers in Van.

As of right now Sutter is still better than Gaudette

This argument holds zero weight.

Bonino at 1.9 every day of the week over Sutter. He's outscored him considerably more than just benefiting from him line mates. Looking at him on the Pens as well. Every metric suggests Bonino is an equivalent to better player.

Sutter himself may be okay, but he makes his teammates considerably worse. At least Bonino could play with Kessel and Haglin. Sutter would have tanked the whole line. He'd only every work on a line with little passing, head down, north/south play. He's the guy you have on your third line when your team is terrible. I personally don't even want him on a fourth line.

I don't know how anyone that's watched Bonino play (or even just glanced at his stats) could still argue Sutter > Bonino.

Also, that 2nd rounder turned into G, Gustavsson but easily could have been Adam Fox, Dillon Dube, etc.

The trade had a significant impact. Maybe we'd have Tanev or Markstrom rn too.

 

[RobertKron]

Just friendly reminder, we are not having an argument on who won the trade. I confirmed already that Sutter wasn't a good trade but I am debating that it has very little impact on the Canucks.

Yes 1.9 M for a center like Bonino are smart valued by smart teams but we are not debating that.

You do realize we are both playing what if game. What if the trade never happened, you're playing what if Bonino didn't get traded and Benning could of got a 1st round pick for him. Now I am saying most likely that wouldn't of happened because Benning doesn't get draft pickz for players. Also Canucks were so thin at centre so most likely Benning wouldn't traded Bonino and they resign him.

Only argument you really have is they could of draft a better prospect. The prospects you listed I highly doubt you even know much about them. All you probably did was go on db and saw them play games. You listed as your argument. Sure they would of better off with one of those prospects but wouldn't make hardly difference if they were in the lineup.

Have a great day.

Lol

I do agree that Bonino was definitely untouchable in Benning's eyes. No way would he have ever moved him, as evidenced by Bonino retiring a Canuck.

 

[Canucks1096]

This argument holds zero weight.

Bonino at 1.9 every day of the week over Sutter. He's outscored him considerably more than just benefiting from him line mates. Looking at him on the Pens as well. Every metric suggests Bonino is an equivalent to better player.

Sutter himself may be okay, but he makes his teammates considerably worse. At least Bonino could play with Kessel and Haglin. Sutter would have tanked the whole line. He'd only every work on a line with little passing, head down, north/south play. He's the guy you have on your third line when your team is terrible. I personally don't even want him on a fourth line.

I don't know how anyone that's watched Bonino play (or even just glanced at his stats) could still argue Sutter > Bonino.

Also, that 2nd rounder turned into G, Gustavsson but easily could have been Adam Fox, Dillon Dube, etc.

The trade had a significant impact. Maybe we'd have Tanev or Markstrom rn too.

Looks like you didn't read what the argument was about. Go back and read all the posts.

Have a great day.

 

[Bgav]

I will legit celebrate the day he’s off this team