Player Discussion Brandon Sutter. Defensive Center. One More Year Remaining at $4.375 AAV (w/ M-NTC).

MS

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I said he wasn't good in the playoffs (he was practically anonymous), doesnt mean he wasn't effective during the regular season..?

Anyway,I'm not convinced Bonino would have moved the needle that much even if he hadn't been traded..It was painfully obvious that the twins were in rapid decline, and there wasn't a sufficient amount of young impact talent on the roster.

I mean, sure, we probably aren't making the playoffs the next two years either way.

But we also aren't stuck with an albatross contract into our competing seasons, and if we'd traded Bonino for futures in 2015 he should have provided a substantial piece that could be helping us now.
 
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4Twenty

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Please do some research. First 40 games in 2016 season. 10 points in his first 40 games. The same level linemates that Sutter had the year befoee. Btw Sutter got 21 goals with type of linemates. Then a top 5 RW comes to his line and saved his horrible season. It is proven Bonino needs quick speedy wingers to produce.

2018 season Sutter was clearly better than Bonino as well. That is with worst linemates and lots of dzone starts.
So just trying to be sure. Is it your point that Brandon Sutter is a 3rd liner who produces modest results no matter the linemates and that makes him better than Bonino because he’s closer to being a 2nd liner?


Also, would you argue that the money being spent on Sutter limited the quality of the linemates the team could afford under the cap? They were capped out in both seasons after the trade. Finished 2nd and 3rd worst in the league.
 

Canucks1096

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Nashville ice time ranks by forward in 19/20:

13. Austin Watson
10. Craig Smith
9. Scissons
7. Jarnkrok

The Canucks trading a better player who is cheaper for a more expensive worse player with a longer contract will impact the teams future. Ignore it if you want. It’s true. Or are you also arguing Eriksson has no impact either?


Fringe prospects?

You killed my points? Cute.

A 4th liner is worse than a 2/3 tweener especially when you factor in salary and acquisition cost. Having the better player is always better. Especially when tnst player can do all the same things but plays better with actual difference makers.

A who cares type trade? This is the 6th season of having one of these players.

You’re still discussing it 6 years later but who cares?

I think it’s ridiculous to think a 4th liner with a 4th line skill set making 2nd line money is a nothing issue when the 2/3 tweener as you say could play and perform with 2/3 tweezers for hakf the price.

In Vancouver he would’ve plated with Vrbata. They didn’t even try Sutter there they had to try him as the Sedins RW early on. Remember?

Unbelieveable, you made the mistake by indirectly saying Bonino produce in Nash with 3rd/4th line. Now you're trying to convince yourself that those players are 4th line guys.

Also you're cherry picking as well.

2018 season

Sissons 4th
Jarnkrok 6th
Smith 8th

2019 season

Sissons 6th
Jarnkrok 8th
Smith 9th

Smith regularly gets 20 goals, Jarnkrok has few 0.5 ppg. Each get on average 14 to 16 mins. At times Smith and Jarnkrok on the top 2 lines as well. Ice time/production/moving up the lineup. That already those players are 4th guys. There more like middle 6 guys. Also one thing both Sissons and Jarnekok are great skater. Bonino only can produce if he has those type of players.

Are people really going to ignore first 40 games while he struggle with 4th line players. Those are the players that he would be Vancouver. He would struggle.

In 2015 playoffs both his regular winger Vrbata and Higgins were struggling. Do you remember how horrible he was.

Your Nash linemates is ridiculous.

Bonino is not making 1.9 M now. He is making 4 M. If they kept Bonino and resigned him he would be making the about the same salary as Sutter. The two seasons that Bonino making 1.9 M. It had no impact on those 2 seasons.

Yes I remember Vrbate. Sure I will give you that point but do you remember the 4 years that Canucks missed the the playoffs and were a really bad. They struggle to score. Bonino would be playing with 4th line players which he would struggle with.

Btw 2016 season Pits got Kessel Rust Sheary Murray Cullen Fehr Schultz Daley Haglin. Don't act like Bonino was main change that made Pit win two cups.
 

4Twenty

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Unbelieveable, you made the mistake by indirectly saying Bonino produce in Nash with 3rd/4th line. Now you're trying to convince yourself that those players are 4th line guys.

Also you're cherry picking as well.

2018 season

Sissons 4th
Jarnkrok 6th
Smith 8th

2019 season

Sissons 6th
Jarnkrok 8th
Smith 9th

Smith regularly gets 20 goals, Jarnkrok has few 0.5 ppg. Each get on average 14 to 16 mins. At times Smith and Jarnkrok on the top 2 lines as well. Ice time/production/moving up the lineup. That already those players are 4th guys. There more like middle 6 guys. Also one thing both Sissons and Jarnekok are great skater. Bonino only can produce if he has those type of players.

Are people really going to ignore first 40 games while he struggle with 4th line players. Those are the players that he would be Vancouver. He would struggle.

In 2015 playoffs both his regular winger Vrbata and Higgins were struggling. Do you remember how horrible he was.

Your Nash linemates is ridiculous.

Bonino is not making 1.9 M now. He is making 4 M. If they kept Bonino and resigned him he would be making the about the same salary as Sutter. The two seasons that Bonino making 1.9 M. It had no impact on those 2 seasons.

Yes I remember Vrbate. Sure I will give you that point but do you remember the 4 years that Canucks missed the the playoffs and were a really bad. They struggle to score. Bonino would be playing with 4th line players which he would struggle with.

Btw 2016 season Pits got Kessel Rust Sheary Murray Cullen Fehr Schultz Daley Haglin. Don't act like Bonino was main change that made Pit win two cups.
There are just too many assumptions involved here that makes this discussion pointless.

I’m glad you’re so good pleased with the results of that trade.

Of the 36 skaters who skated with Bonino in his 3 years in Nashville, only 3 of them had negative goal differentials together.



Have a swell day.
 
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Canucks1096

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So, in Bonino's least productive situation ever ... he produced played at basically the same level as Sutter normally? Fascinating.

Bonino has produced on 4 different teams and only ever had Kessel on his line briefly. He's a flat-out better player than Brandon Sutter by a country mile. Again, it is incomprehensible that anyone could be defending this dumpster fire of a trade.

Since the trade was made, Bonino ppg per 82 games in only few points higher. Bonino play with speedy middle 6 to 1st line wingers Sutter play with Granlund, Dorset, Megna, Gaunce, Archibald. So he is so much better and yet he doesn't produce much more based on ppg.

Based on the evidence we know Sutter does produce more when playing with 4th line guys. Sutter doesn't need speedy middle 6 to first line wingers to get 30 points. Bonino does.

Country mile better, yet he doesn't produce more.

I still remember a few years ago you decided not use to ppg because that will hurt your argument. You posted here for a long time. I have read some of your post that you talked about ppg. Ignore evidences that doesn't work for your argument.

2016 season 70 % of Bonino points came with Haglin and Kessel line.

People seem to ignore the role that Bonino would be playing in Van. He will struggle in that role with those linemates.

Have a nice day.
 

VanJack

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Let's be clear here.....Benning broke the bank for Sutter because he was supposed to be 'light years better' than Bonino. But given this maestro's legendary ability at pro scouting , I suppose we shouldn't be shocked that the guy he traded turned out to be 'light years better' than Sutter, and has the Cup rings to prove it.
 
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sandwichbird2023

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Since the trade was made, Bonino ppg per 82 games in only few points higher. Bonino play with speedy middle 6 to 1st line wingers Sutter play with Granlund, Dorset, Megna, Gaunce, Archibald. So he is so much better and yet he doesn't produce much more based on ppg.

Based on the evidence we know Sutter does produce more when playing with 4th line guys. Sutter doesn't need speedy middle 6 to first line wingers to get 30 points. Bonino does.

Country mile better, yet he doesn't produce more.

I still remember a few years ago you decided not use to ppg because that will hurt your argument. You posted here for a long time. I have read some of your post that you talked about ppg. Ignore evidences that doesn't work for your argument.

2016 season 70 % of Bonino points came with Haglin and Kessel line.

People seem to ignore the role that Bonino would be playing in Van. He will struggle in that role with those linemates.

Have a nice day.
Didn't Sutter spent a good chunk of time on the Sedins wing in all the easy minutes and PP1? It's not like Sutter was playing with chumps his whole time here.

Also it's been mentioned before, even if you believe Sutter = Bonino, or even Sutter slightly > Bonino, Benning should've traded Bones for futures at the time. Picks/prospects + 4m cap space >>> 2016-2021 Sutter, I don't think anybody can argue against that.

Sutter had decent stretches during his time in Vancouver (usually when the team is well out of playoff contention), but the usage of assets (Bonino/cap space) had been greatly botched by Benning, as usual.
 
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MS

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Since the trade was made, Bonino ppg per 82 games in only few points higher. Bonino play with speedy middle 6 to 1st line wingers Sutter play with Granlund, Dorset, Megna, Gaunce, Archibald. So he is so much better and yet he doesn't produce much more based on ppg.

Based on the evidence we know Sutter does produce more when playing with 4th line guys. Sutter doesn't need speedy middle 6 to first line wingers to get 30 points. Bonino does.

Country mile better, yet he doesn't produce more.

I still remember a few years ago you decided not use to ppg because that will hurt your argument. You posted here for a long time. I have read some of your post that you talked about ppg. Ignore evidences that doesn't work for your argument.

2016 season 70 % of Bonino points came with Haglin and Kessel line.

People seem to ignore the role that Bonino would be playing in Van. He will struggle in that role with those linemates.

Have a nice day.

This is the strangest hill to die on I've ever seen.

Bonino is a high-end #3 center/solid #2 two-way center (or was, he's almost 33 now and a fully bottom-6 guy). Sutter is (or again, was) an average #3 center.

Bonino works well with good players. Sutter doesn't work well with anyone. Sutter also spent 1/3 of a season as a (terrible) winger with the Sedins, in case you've forgotten. Bonino had Kessel as a linemate very briefly. He's been a very good #2-3 center since 2013 with a rotating cache of perfectly ordinary middle-6 wingers.

They are not close as players. At all. Even a little bit. And we gave up assets to take the worse player on the worse contract.
 

604

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Contracts aside Bonino was just a straight up better player than Sutter. Can’t believe anyone is arguing otherwise

Yep, better player on a better contract.

Should've brought in a 1st plus to help the rebuild.
 

joelCAMEL

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I mean, sure, we probably aren't making the playoffs the next two years either way.

But we also aren't stuck with an albatross contract into our competing seasons, and if we'd traded Bonino for futures in 2015 he should have provided a substantial piece that could be helping us now.

so, is there anyone that should be traded this year...to help the team in later years?
 

NuxFan09

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This isn't a Benning defense post, just an honest question:

What share of the blame do the pro scouts get? Yes it's Benning who is ultimately in charge but you wonder if some of these players he's signing at the advice of his or scouts or if they're all him. Otherwise, what's the point of pro scouting.

I'm just saying we have to also hold our pro scouting accountable at some point as well, not just Benning's own pro scouting.
 

MS

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This isn't a Benning defense post, just an honest question:

What share of the blame do the pro scouts get? Yes it's Benning who is ultimately in charge but you wonder if some of these players he's signing at the advice of his or scouts or if they're all him. Otherwise, what's the point of pro scouting.

I'm just saying we have to also hold our pro scouting accountable at some point as well, not just Benning's own pro scouting.

Most pro scouting comes from the GMs office. It's a completely different procedure than amateur scouting.

Jim Benning has a massive whiteboard in his office and huge percentage of Canuck additions (Eriksson, Granlund, Baertschi, Bartkowski, Miller, Vey, Dorsett, Pouliot) have had direct connections with the GM/Weisbrod/head coach. In 2019 we were literally able to call the Ferland/Myers signings months ahead of time because Benning and his 'type' is so predictable.
 
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RobertKron

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This isn't a Benning defense post, just an honest question:

What share of the blame do the pro scouts get? Yes it's Benning who is ultimately in charge but you wonder if some of these players he's signing at the advice of his or scouts or if they're all him. Otherwise, what's the point of pro scouting.

I'm just saying we have to also hold our pro scouting accountable at some point as well, not just Benning's own pro scouting.

Yes, the pro scouting has clearly been bad. How much of that is individual scouts recommending bad players or the GM fixating on bad targets or a combination of both is pretty tough to determine, but it’s worth noting that the team’s “scouting” of its own personnel hasn’t necessarily been very good either.
 

VanJack

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Yes, the pro scouting has clearly been bad. How much of that is individual scouts recommending bad players or the GM fixating on bad targets or a combination of both is pretty tough to determine, but it’s worth noting that the team’s “scouting” of its own personnel hasn’t necessarily been very good either.
I think this is an importance discussion....why has the Canucks pro scouting been so abysmal over the years?

But rather than affixing blame, the thing that I marvel about is the apparent inability to fix it. I mean the Sutter trade dates back to 2015 now. And in the intervening five years it's been a steady string of poor value trades and UFA signings bordering on catastrophic. Why has the Canucks pro scouting been on a treadmill to nowhere, going on six seasons now?
 

4Twenty

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I think this is an importance discussion....why has the Canucks pro scouting been so abysmal over the years?

But rather than affixing blame, the thing that I marvel about is the apparent inability to fix it. I mean the Sutter trade dates back to 2015 now. And in the intervening five years it's been a steady string of poor value trades and UFA signings bordering on catastrophic. Why has the Canucks pro scouting been on a treadmill to nowhere, going on six seasons now?
Are you serious with these questions?

What’s been the mainstay those 6 years?


You want to know why? But not affix blame?

These questions lead down one path.
 

RobertKron

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I think this is an importance discussion....why has the Canucks pro scouting been so abysmal over the years?

But rather than affixing blame, the thing that I marvel about is the apparent inability to fix it. I mean the Sutter trade dates back to 2015 now. And in the intervening five years it's been a steady string of poor value trades and UFA signings bordering on catastrophic. Why has the Canucks pro scouting been on a treadmill to nowhere, going on six seasons now?

They pretty clearly haven’t seen their misses as problems. Sbisa, for example, was an obvious pro scouting miss and they gave him a raise. Fast forward a few years and it’s Gudbranson. Also, if you look at the types of underwhelming players that they keep handcuffing themselves to, it’s often basically the same problem a couple years later. It’s as if they believe that these errors were actually sound decisions marred by random bad luck.

Combine that with the team making the same kind of misses in their decisions with their own personnel, and it’s probably a case where it’s tough to fix the problem when the boss believes in the methodology that is at the root of the problem.
 

Fatass

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If Brandon Sutter isn’t in the former Canuck thread (with his uncle Rich. Is that the twin we had?) before this coming TDL our management has again screwed up.
 
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NuxFan09

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Most pro scouting comes from the GMs office. It's a completely different procedure than amateur scouting.

Jim Benning has a massive whiteboard in his office and huge percentage of Canuck additions (Eriksson, Granlund, Baertschi, Bartkowski, Miller, Vey, Dorsett, Pouliot) have had direct connections with the GM/Weisbrod/head coach. In 2019 we were literally able to call the Ferland/Myers signings months ahead of time because Benning and his 'type' is so predictable.
I see. And I'm guessing anyone who has the gumption to push back on certain targets gets down the door....
 

M2Beezy

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Starting to think we lost the Sutter-Bonino downgrade of picks trade
 

MS

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I see. And I'm guessing anyone who has the gumption to push back on certain targets gets down the door....

I don't know how exactly things break down.

I do know that pro scouting predominantly from the GM office with every NHL team, and that Benning and his white board don't appear to be any different. And there has never once been a case where a specific pro scout was linked to a move to acquire a player, in the way that it happens with amateur draft picks.

I feel pretty comfortable saying that Benning and Weisbrod should pretty close to fully own the pro scouting on this team.
 
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Canucks1096

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So just trying to be sure. Is it your point that Brandon Sutter is a 3rd liner who produces modest results no matter the linemates and that makes him better than Bonino because he’s closer to being a 2nd liner?


Also, would you argue that the money being spent on Sutter limited the quality of the linemates the team could afford under the cap? They were capped out in both seasons after the trade. Finished 2nd and 3rd worst in the league.

Not really is the answer to both questions.

Bonino is close to a low end 2nd line player if he has speedy middle 6 to 1st line players to play with. Closer to a 4th line player/low end third line player if he playing with strictly bottom 6 players vs Sutter okay third line numbers regardless of linemates. That to me doesn't make Bonino a better player. Also sometimes you trade player because there not a good fit for the team. People just make assumption and say since this player can both with better players and higher up in the lineup, he must be a better player. That is not the case.

I will give you example with Burrows. Burrows put up low 1st line numbers with the Sedins, however without the Sedins, burrows is probably a low end 2nd line or a good third line player. Should we call Burows a 1st line player. I say No because he is only first line player with the Sedins.

If there was a 2nd line player that can put up around 50 points with okay player but still put up 50 points with the Sedins. I would go with the 50 point instead of Burrows if there are no Sedins. Similair to I will go with Sutter if there are no middle 6 to 1st speedy wingers for Bonino. Most teams don't have those wingers for their third line center.

Similair to Sutter Bonino trade. Sutter was a better fit for the team since there were no fast middle 6 to 1st line winger to play with for Bonino. Maybe Bonino a worst fit, regardless of what he did Pits it not relevant since he wouldn't of had those numbers here going forward.

Let's recap, the trade was based on Bonino horrible playoffs and he was such a slow skater. They wanted to transition Horvat into the 2nd line center and also had no RH C that can take faceoffs. They wanted a 2B/3rd line center to take on the hard matchup and player with lesser linemate. Sutter was definitely better fit. Sutter was coming up a great playoffs and got 21 goals playing with Glass and Adam's with his linemates. That is Benning overpaid for the trade. Canucks just didn't have the players going forward to make Bonino effective.

Yes the trade it didn't work due mainly because of injury but in the end the higher pick didn't result in a high end player.

If Canucks had extra 2 M cap. Most likely they used that money to fix the top 6. Finding wingers for a third line center are usually not the team priority. Also since they were 2nd and 3rd last. Don't think an extra 2 M would of made the difference.
 

Canucks1096

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I watched Pittsburgh closely those years. Bonino not only benefitted from playing with two speedy wingers but he greatly benefitted from having a first line caliber player on his line in kessel,while feasting on lesser competition. Pittsburgh is a very unique team in that they have two of the top players in the league, and two that can entirely carry a line, similar to how the sedins could carry a third linemate. But they only need a single player to do that. This allows them to move down very talented players to feast on other team. This is a huge reason they were able to win the cups with a lack of D men. They were so far ahead of other teams in talent throughout their lineup on the front end.

It was a good fit for Bonino, the team didn't really lose huge on that deal, at all. But again, good luck arguing anything on this board with these specific posters who are negative about every single thing. And they feel like they are right because look at his past track record! by default, that means theyre right about Bonino as well.

Bonino was so invisible in those playoffs and they needed change, so somebody who looked like he didn't fit in at all, was giving very little effort and was extremely slow, had to be moved. They went for a faster guy who provides a better all around game. I still don't think it was the best trade, I think Sutter makes his linemates worse. His ability to work off of linemates is one of the worst ive seen in a top 9 player. The guy has enough IQ in other areas that its truly astounding how he works off other players on the ice, this is why he plays with very low iq players, because he is poor at utilizing them and the coach knows this. It's not the other way around

Focusing on such a nothing trade is definitely due to bias. There are clear losses for this management team, that bonino trade isn't one of them. Should have done whatever it takes to pry Theodore from them in the Kesler trade and thats not hindsight, i was screaming for it, I recall some other posters were as well, he was undervalued there, as evident by them trading him for a 3rd or whatever it was, to protect manson. They didn't target the right players due to poor pro scouting and wanting players more ready right that moment. The bonino/sutter deal was nothing to waste a thought about. Him thriving for a while just gave people who already think hes a terrible manager something to bitch more about.

Teams make Bonino/Sutter types of deals all the time. You win some, ya lose some. There was logic behind it, the team didn't like his fit on the team for playoff type of hockey and the perception is clearly clouded by ones clearly better opportunity and the other team overselling a player and him ending up overpaid. They paid a couple million for a player they saw a future on the team, who played faster and more playoff style hockey

Canucks had made the playoffs and werent planning on a rebuild. They underperformed in playoffs and were trying to address the reasons why. I am curious what people's thoughts would be if Sutter had stayed playing with Kessel and Hagelin and Bonino remained here, being a poor fit and went down with the Canucks team. Would it be an equal trade then?

Awesome posts,

Really enjoy reading all your posts. Have a great day.
 
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