Confirmed with Link: Brandon Sutter & 3rd to Vancouver for Nick Bonino, Adam Clendening, 2nd

[systemsgo]

I don't think of top-heavy as strength. Otherwise, the Pens forwards were a stength the past three years.

The Hawks have 3 guys who could arguably play as #1s on other teams, that's half, that's not top heavy. It's like saying 6 of our 12 forwards could all be on the top lines on other teams in the league. That's strength.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The Hawks have 3 guys who could arguably play as #1s on other teams, that's half, that's not top heavy. It's like saying 6 of our 12 forwards could all be on the top lines on other teams in the league. That's strength.

They do not have three guys who can be effective #1s on good teams.

 

[IcedCapp]

The Hawks have 3 guys who could arguably play as #1s on other teams, that's half, that's not top heavy. It's like saying 6 of our 12 forwards could all be on the top lines on other teams in the league. That's strength.

I disagree that having three amazing players and praying they never get injured or tired is stength.

I also disagree that Oduya or Hammer, whichever one you meant, are #1s.

Having to hide 2 players is not a stength. The fact that the Blackhawks are amazingly lucky with health is not a strength.

 

[td_ice]

I disagree that having three amazing players and praying they never get injured or tired is stength.

I also disagree that Oduya or Hammer, whichever one you meant, are #1s.

Having to hide 2 players is not a stength. The fact that the Blackhawks are amazingly lucky with health is not a strength.

Since the '10 playoffs, the Hawks top 5 players, have missed a combined 6 playoff games due to injury.

Which is pretty amazing considering the number of games they have played, short off seasons, and just the physical nature of the game.

They have been super healthy. They don't win those cups without such fortunate circumstances.

 

[IcedCapp]

Since the '10 playoffs, the Hawks top 5 players, have missed a combined 6 playoff games due to injury.

Which is pretty amazing considering the number of games they have played, short off seasons, and just the physical nature of the game.

They have been super healthy. They don't win those cups without such fortunate circumstances.

Yea, that's my point. I'm not saying the Blackhawks have a bad defense - I think Keith's performance this year was one of the 5-best playoff performances of all-time - I'm simply saying that counting on two guys to NEVER GET HURT OR TIRED is not "strength." It's a **** ton of luck.

 

[td_ice]

Yea, that's my point. I'm not saying the Blackhawks have a bad defense - I think Keith's performance this year was one of the 5-best playoff performances of all-time - I'm simply saying that counting on two guys to NEVER GET HURT OR TIRED is not "strength." It's a **** ton of luck.

Haha.....I know......I was agreeing with you about the Hawks being fortunate.

Not that you needed it, but I was trying to reinforce your point with those game stats. Because they truly shown how ridiculously healthy the Hawks have been.

And for this year, if they lose any one of their top 3 dmen this past playoffs, and they don't win the Cup.

 

[Deutschland Dangler]

Since the '10 playoffs, the Hawks top 5 players, have missed a combined 6 playoff games due to injury.

Which is pretty amazing considering the number of games they have played, short off seasons, and just the physical nature of the game.

They have been super healthy. They don't win those cups without such fortunate circumstances.

Yeah. For example the Kane situation this year was ridiculously lucky. Gets injured just in time to lift any sort of cap restrictions down the line but doesn't miss a playoff game. Meanwhile, we had our injuries timed in a way that had us dress 5 defensemen and Malkin barely limping through the first round.
The Hawks are/were an awesome team but they definitely had Fortuna on their side.

 

[systemsgo]

I disagree that having three amazing players and praying they never get injured or tired is stength.

I also disagree that Oduya or Hammer, whichever one you meant, are #1s.

Having to hide 2 players is not a stength. The fact that the Blackhawks are amazingly lucky with health is not a strength.

they had to hide their bottom pairing due to injury, and hammer is a shutdown #1. oduya is nowhere near the other 3. the Hawks have been incredibly lucky, but they've also had the talent on their roster. our injuries happened to our top guys and theirs happened to their bottom guys. I am a fan of letang, Maatta and Martin, but I think the Hawks top end D beats ours.

 

[EVGENIMERLIN]

Since the '10 playoffs, the Hawks top 5 players, have missed a combined 6 playoff games due to injury.

Which is pretty amazing considering the number of games they have played, short off seasons, and just the physical nature of the game.

They have been super healthy. They don't win those cups without such fortunate circumstances.

This stat blew me away. That is incredibly lucky

 

[IcedCapp]

they had to hide their bottom pairing due to injury, and hammer is a shutdown #1. oduya is nowhere near the other 3. the Hawks have been incredibly lucky, but they've also had the talent on their roster. our injuries happened to our top guys and theirs happened to their bottom guys. I am a fan of letang, Maatta and Martin, but I think the Hawks top end D beats ours.

You're stating a ton of opinions as facts, and I disagree with most of those opinions, so there's really no sense in wasting my time any more at this point.

 

[#1GuinFan]

they had to hide their bottom pairing due to injury, and hammer is a shutdown #1. oduya is nowhere near the other 3. the Hawks have been incredibly lucky, but they've also had the talent on their roster. our injuries happened to our top guys and theirs happened to their bottom guys. I am a fan of letang, Maatta and Martin, but I think the Hawks top end D beats ours.

No he's not, Seabrook is a #1 Shutdown D, Ryan McDonagh is a #1 shutdown d, so is Shea Weber, Chara was a #1 shutdown d. Hammer is not one of them.

 

[BeautiPhil]

they had to hide their bottom pairing due to injury, and hammer is a shutdown #1. oduya is nowhere near the other 3. the Hawks have been incredibly lucky, but they've also had the talent on their roster. our injuries happened to our top guys and theirs happened to their bottom guys. I am a fan of letang, Maatta and Martin, but I think the Hawks top end D beats ours.

Hjalmarsson isn't a #1, by the simple fact that there are 30 defenseman better than him. He was great in the playoffs but he's really a #2 guy. A good support defenseman for the top pairing, or can carry a 2nd pairing.

 

[systemsgo]

No he's not, Seabrook is a #1 Shutdown D, Ryan McDonagh is a #1 shutdown d, so is Shea Weber, Chara was a #1 shutdown d. Hammer is not one of them.

I think your definition of #1 is too narrow, like a #1, vs. "true #1". Hjarmalsson has been used by the Hawks in a shutdown role, Keith and Seabrook tended to get slightly sheltered minutes compared to Hammer and Oduya.

Hjalmarsson isn't a #1, by the simple fact that there are 30 defenseman better than him. He was great in the playoffs but he's really a #2 guy. A good support defenseman for the top pairing, or can carry a 2nd pairing.

He was actually great all of last season, not just in the playoffs. I didn't really make a list of top 30 defenders, I would assume he'd be in the 25-30 for me, but I think there's really only 20 or so guys who're definitively #1s, the others are dependent on preference. So you'd be perfectly fair in disagreeing. But I think Hammer could carry a top pairing on teams with weaker defence. He'd automatically be the best guy on some teams right now.

You're stating a ton of opinions as facts, and I disagree with most of those opinions, so there's really no sense in wasting my time any more at this point.

They're all my opinions, I didn't think I needed to preface all opinions with "It's my opinion that blahblahblah". Player X is better than Player Y is almost always an opinion when it's sort of close - just look at those ranking threads or polls, it's nuts. You're free to disagree.




Edited to add in response to you guys:
Some of Hammer's stats compared to the 3 listed by 1GuinFan:

Including some other defencemen:

Hammer lines up very well with some very good dmen, I included Letang and Martin from the Pens (as Maatta played too few games). I think he's excellent defensively, he's just very lacking in the offensive department which is why I have him on the low end of my #1s.

 

[Til the End of Time]

so how good is bonino actually? i guess his stats, advanced stats, and salary are pretty good, but i have heard him described as a poor skater and a player that avoids contact. doesn't seem like a ringing endorsement. was he a key component to the kesler trade, or just a throw in?

in any case he can't be much worse than sutter.

the trade at least seems like addition by subtraction, but i am wondering if the pens also got a legit asset in bonino.

 

[IcedCapp]

I think he's a very good dman. I think he benefits from being behind the players he's behind.

I think, if he were expected to play the most and the hardest minutes for a team, that team's defense would either be really bad, or it would be seriously deep (like, it would be Hammer and 4or5 no3-4s)

 

[Ogrezilla]

so how good is bonino actually? i guess his stats, advanced stats, and salary are pretty good, but i have heard him described as a poor skater and a player that avoids contact. doesn't seem like a ringing endorsement. was he a key component to the kesler trade, or just a throw in?

in any case he can't be much worse than sutter.

the trade at least seems like addition by subtraction, but i am wondering if the pens also got a legit asset in bonino.

He was a key component of the Kesler trade. He's a good hockey player. He isn't a 2nd line center, which is how Vancouver tried to use him. He's slower than Sutter, similarly soft, but better offensively and better for possession. He won't score as many goals off the rush as Sutter, but he's better at every other offensive attribute. He can actually use his linemates. And he's also enough cheaper than Sutter to allow us to sign Fehr. So there's that.

 

[systemsgo]

I think he's a very good dman. I think he benefits from being behind the players he's behind.

I think, if he were expected to play the most and the hardest minutes for a team, that team's defense would either be really bad, or it would be seriously deep (like, it would be Hammer and 4or5 no3-4s)

The thing is, Hammer does play the hardest minutes on his team while having the highest +/- in his team (this year) for any dman. It's a pretty interesting stat considering he's not an offensive guy, he only got 19 points. He takes the most Dzone starts and the fewest OZ starts.

Corsi Rel QoC:
Hammer: 1.462 (third highest in the league this year for dmen)
Oduya: 1.203
Keith: 0.452
Seabrook: 0.371
Rosival: -0.295
Rundblad: -1.071

Stats taken from here:
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...3+5+4+6+7+8+13+14+29+30+32+33+34+45+46+63+67# (and you can check out past years if you want, Hammer has consistently taken the hardest matchups among the d)

Him and Oduya are the only Hawks dmen who end up in the offensive zone more than they started out.

And you can see here, he's on ice for the fewest GA/60 on his team:

And he plays very similar minutes to Keith and Seabrook on 5v5, it's the special teams that make the difference. If anything, I think he and Keith and Seabrook benefit from playing with each other. Keith helps mask his lack of scoring and his strength in being the shut down guy for the Hawks allows Keith to get better match ups.

 

[plaidchuck]

This the slippery slope where we blame all of the pens ills on bad luck?

 

[Pancakes]

so how good is bonino actually? i guess his stats, advanced stats, and salary are pretty good, but i have heard him described as a poor skater and a player that avoids contact. doesn't seem like a ringing endorsement. was he a key component to the kesler trade, or just a throw in?

in any case he can't be much worse than sutter.

the trade at least seems like addition by subtraction, but i am wondering if the pens also got a legit asset in bonino.

For me it's like you say: he can't be worse than Sutter. The stats seem to suggest he's a better scorer and a better possession guy than Sutter. If he can keep that up here, I don't care how his game looks. Hornqvist's game is ugly as sin but it's effective.

 

[#1GuinFan]

I listed those players as examples of #1 d-men, my definition is not limited to those only.

 

[Nakawick]

they had to hide their bottom pairing due to injury, and hammer is a shutdown #1. oduya is nowhere near the other 3. the Hawks have been incredibly lucky, but they've also had the talent on their roster. our injuries happened to our top guys and theirs happened to their bottom guys. I am a fan of letang, Maatta and Martin, but I think the Hawks top end D beats ours.

Not sure about hammer as a number 1, but I agree that the Hawks top end on D is better than the Pens.

 

[Penguinator]

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Apparently Linden didn't want to let Bonino go.

 

[Pete Gas]

Ownership force his hand?

 

[systemsgo]

I'm assuming it's from this? http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/linden-on-bonino-we-were-not-looking-to-move-him~679219

He didn't exactly say that. He said Bonino was great in the locker room, made an improvement on their culture there and has good hands/skill. But Linden saw the opportunity to get a "real building block", a guy who could help solidify their team down the centre and could take the load off Horvat for a few years. Basically Sutter > Bonino to them.