Brandon "Meat & Butter" Sutter

[F A N]

now what looks like a high 2nd round pick.

How do you figure? The Canucks are currently ranked 12th in the league. If you are looking at things NOW it looks like a low 2nd round pick.

 

[Disappointed EP40]

I'm liking what Sutter has been bringing so far in terms of PK work and his goal scoring.... but he has to be the softest player on the team when it comes to battling along the boards. Still looks like a smaller, slightly faster Matthias out there. Or a taller, center version of Mason Raymond that falls down less. Just getting rubbed out or bouncing off guys.

The contract is still horrible

This is exactly how I'd describe him, just with better defensive positioning.

Note, I said positioning, because his ability to win puck battles and stop guys by keeping the puck away from them is fairly weak for a 'defensive' player.

 

[Addison Rae]

How do you figure? The Canucks are currently ranked 12th in the league. If you are looking at things NOW it looks like a low 2nd round pick.

The Vancouver Canucks traded the Anaheim Ducks second round pick which was previously acquired for long time Canucks RHD Kevin Bieksa in a deal with the Pittsbugh Penguins for Brandon Sutter.

 

[Diamonddog01]

This makes no sense, Bonino is being deployed as close to any player we've seen to prime Malhotra currently. He absolutely is being utilized as a shutdown player currently stop pretending that your opinion triumphs objective information. You clearly don't seem to understand the concept of how defensive players are deployed compared to offensive ones so there's no point even trying to arguing here.

Sutter had a hot start, but really is exactly what Pens fans described to us, would still take Bonino over him, especially when factoring contracts and now what looks like a high 2nd round pick.

What? He's being deployed as a defensive shut-down guy, but let's not be ridiculous. Malhotra's offensive zone start % in 2011 was an insane 13.2, Bonino's is currently at 23.5%.

 

[Addison Rae]

What? He's being deployed as a defensive shut-down guy, but let's not be ridiculous. Malhotra's offensive zone start % in 2011 was an insane 13.2, Bonino's is currently at 23.5%.

You clearly didn't read that properly, maybe try again?

 

[coldsteel79]

It's like darts, the more darts you have the better chance you have. This example has been made with Chicago and Brandon Saad, they had 5 picks in the first 2 round that year. They chose 3 players over Saad, but finally took the risk on him because they accumulated enough picks to go for a boom/bust guy. If Chicago was so good at drafting, wouldn't have they picked up Saad earlier knowing full and well at how good he was going to be?

Why pick saad earlier when they could get him later

 

[Diamonddog01]

You clearly didn't read that properly, maybe try again?

Huh? You stated he's being deployed as close as any player to Malhotra in 2011, which isn't really true.

 

[Addison Rae]

Why pick saad earlier when they could get him later

How did they know they could pick him later? He was pegged to go in the first round..

 

[Addison Rae]

Huh? You stated he's being deployed as close as any player to Malhotra in 2011, which isn't really true.

Okay so which player has been deployed closer to Malhotra? You have me with Marcus Kruger, anyone else? Point still stands. He's being deployed with some of the hardest minutes in the league, it's hard to suggest he's playing bad, especially when you're just reading hockeydb.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Okay so which player has been deployed closer to Malhotra? You have me with Marcus Kruger, anyone else? Point still stands. He's being deployed with some of the hardest minutes in the league, it's hard to suggest he's playing bad, especially when you're just reading hockeydb.

Actually I was off with Bonino, behind the net has him at 33.7.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...5&c=0+1+3+5+63+67+57+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66#

There are lots of centres this year over the past 4 years that have had a lower oz%. He isn't playing that hard minutes.

He's being deployed as a shutdown guy, but again, it's ridiculous hyperbole to state that he's being deployed like Malhotra in his prime. In fact

 

[coldsteel79]

How did they know they could pick him later? He was pegged to go in the first round..

Except he didn't go in the first round

 

[racerjoe]

Important pieces are relative. A 2nd pairing defender that tremendously helps your special teams, or greatly improves possession and ga/60 for your 2nd pairing, is an extremely beneficial thing. Might not be a top player, or 'foundational' player , but the team becomes much better.

You can't just look at these players in a vacuum, you have to look at the domino effect they have on the team's play as a whole.

We didn't pay a "big hand". We slightly overpaid to get a better fit for this team. Let's say Bonino and Sutter are a wash, so we traded an extremely mediocre prospect, and downgraded a few spots in the draft. I'm sorry, I just don't view that as some massive overpayment. It's extremely trivial.

How does this relate to sutter?

We traded a similar package, we traded Kesler for. A draft pick that is slightly worse is the difference. How is that not a big hand? Say what you want about clendening, I will pull the sbisa card.

 

[Addison Rae]

Actually I was off with Bonino, behind the net has him at 33.7.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stat...5&c=0+1+3+5+63+67+57+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66#

There are lots of centres this year over the past 4 years that have had a lower oz%.

He's being deployed as a shutdown guy, but again, it's ridiculous hyperbole to state that he's being deployed like Malhotra in his prime.

I never said he was deployed like prime Malhotra, I said he was deployed as close to anyone since prime Malhotra.

Have any of the guys who started 30 ish % of their shifts in the offensive zone also play similar competition? how productive were they?

 

[Diamonddog01]

How does this relate to sutter?

We traded a similar package, we traded Kesler for. A draft pick that is slightly worse is the difference. How is that not a big hand? Say what you want about clendening, I will pull the sbisa card.

Huh? What does Sbisa have to do with this?

 

[Diamonddog01]

I never said he was deployed like prime Malhotra, I said he was deployed as close to anyone since prime Malhotra.

Have any of the guys who started 30 ish % of their shifts in the offensive zone also play similar competition? how productive were they?

Which is completely, utterly false. Funny that you are calling out other posters regarding advanced stats yet seem to have a fairly tenuous grasp on them.

Yes, many of them have played tougher competition than Bonino. He isn't playing that hard competition. He isn't being deployed as this extreme shut-down C. If anything he's being deployed only slightly more defensively than he was here last year.

 

[Addison Rae]

Except he didn't go in the first round

Uh, okay? You're clearly not understanding the point here. For example in last years draft say Brock Boeser (pegged to go around where Saad went) was available at 36, would you not pick him at 36, because you still didn't think he would be picked by 41? Don't think so. If Chicago knew how good Saad was going to be they wouldn't let 29 other teams have a chance at picking him.

 

[Addison Rae]

Which is completely, utterly false. Funny that you are calling out other posters regarding advanced stats yet seem to have a fairly tenuous grasp on them.

Yes, many of them have played tougher competition than Bonino. He isn't playing that hard competition. He isn't being deployed as this extreme shut-down C. If anything he's being deployed only slightly more defensively than he was here last year.

I wasn't going to create a gigantic research for something that's beside the point I made. The point trying to get across is Bonino isn't playing "terribly" he's being deployed as a tough minute player, and you can't proclaim he isn't playing good because you look at his hockeydb. If you're going to try and debunk what I said than answer my question and tell me how productive the players who were utilized and deployed similarly produced.

Create a list of players who have started ~30% of their shifts in the offensive zone and had a CorsiRelQoc of around 1.0, I'd assume the list isn't that long. Sorry for not devoting half an hour of research on something that's really beside the point.

 

[Diamonddog01]

I wasn't going to create a gigantic research for something that's beside the point I made. The point trying to get across is Bonino isn't playing "terribly" he's being deployed as a tough minute player, and you can't proclaim he isn't playing good because you look at his hockeydb. If you're going to try and debunk what I said than answer my question and tell me how productive the players who were utilized and deployed similarly produced.

Create a list of players who have started ~30% of their shifts in the offensive zone and had a CorsiRelQoc of around 1.0, I'd assume the list isn't that long. Sorry for not devoting half an hour of research on something that's really beside the point.

Bonino's production suffering due to him playing somewhat challenging minutes isn't what I was refuting - it's the fact that you went to such ridiculous hyperbole to try to make that point.

It's actually fairly easy to look up all that, but you seem quite intellectually lazy so I'll do it for you.

First of all a CorsiRelQoc of 1.0 isn't particularly difficult minutes, and Bonino's isn't 1.0, it's actually a bit higher.

Of the centres who have both lesser oz% and a higher CorsiRelQoc

Gaustad
Mitchell
Horcoff
Kruger
Desjardins

There are also players such as Stoll, Boyd, Gordon, Letestu who have a substantially lower oz% but only a marginally lower CorsiRelQoc. Or vice-versa, players with a high CorsiRelQoc such as Cogliano, Couturier, Bozak, Plekanec, Bergeron and a host of others.

Again, he isn't playing particularly hard minutes. But speaking of the he's playing such hard minutes which is why his production suffered - his minutes aren't that hard and his production should not be suffering to the point where he's only pace for 22 points this year. I like Bonino and defended him frequently, but it's quite obvious he's having a disappointing season thus far.

 

[racerjoe]

Huh? What does Sbisa have to do with this?

Thanks for ducking the majority of my comment.

You keep dismissing clendening, when we took back sbisa, I really don't see a difference in asset value between the two. Hell it can be argued sbisa had a negative asset value.

 

[Pip]

Bonino, Sbisa and a 1st

vs

Bonino, Clendening and a 2nd

The value isn't really very far off.

 

[Verviticus]

and if you make it bonino, forsling and a 2nd, it might actually be the better package

 

[Addison Rae]

Bonino's production suffering due to him playing somewhat challenging minutes isn't what I was refuting - it's the fact that you went to such ridiculous hyperbole to try to make that point.

It's actually fairly easy to look up all that, but you seem quite intellectually lazy so I'll do it for you.

First of all a CorsiRelQoc of 1.0 isn't particularly difficult minutes, and Bonino's isn't 1.0, it's actually a bit higher.

Of the centres who have both lesser oz% and a higher CorsiRelQoc

Gaustad
Mitchell
Horcoff
Kruger
Desjardins

There are also players such as Stoll, Boyd, Gordon, Letestu who have a substantially lower oz% but only a marginally lower CorsiRelQoc. Or vice-versa, players with a high CorsiRelQoc such as Cogliano, Couturier, Bozak, Plekanec, Bergeron and a host of others.

Again, he isn't playing particularly hard minutes. But speaking of the he's playing such hard minutes which is why his production suffered - his minutes aren't that hard and his production should not be suffering to the point where he's only pace for 22 points this year. I like Bonino and defended him frequently, but it's quite obvious he's having a disappointing season thus far.

And of those 15 ish players how many of them were able to produce much offense? I understand that those guys aren't house hold names, but I do believe that the minutes Bonino is playing is effecting his ability to create offense. Absolutely you're correct that 22 points isn't nearly enough for a player of his caliber, but I think you and I both know that he's been generating more than what his point totals suggest. I don't think Bonino is tailor made to play the minutes he currently is, hopefully with Fehr returning Pittsburgh can give the 4th some tougher minutes.

Bonino in Vancouver showed he could be a good possession player, productive at even strength and had chemistry with essentially every winger he played with. From a Canucks perspective we know what Bonino brought to the table for us, and he was likely going to bring that to the table for years to come. Bonino gave us an option to spread out the scoring as he was fairly successful when playing with Vrbata. If Bonino signed the contract Sutter did I would been fairly upset too, I don't believe this notion of "Sutter fitting the team better" or him exactly being excellent to start the year.

 

[Addison Rae]

Bonino, Sbisa and a 1st

vs

Bonino, Clendening and a 2nd

The value isn't really very far off.

and if you make it bonino, forsling and a 2nd, it might actually be the better package

Especially when you consider how high the 2nd rounder looks right now.

 

[Pip]

Especially when you consider how high the 2nd rounder looks right now.

Of course there's still a ton of time for Anaheim to recover, but I remember being told the pick was basically a third rounder.

 

[racerjoe]

Of course there's still a ton of time for Anaheim to recover, but I remember being told the pick was basically a third rounder.

Even if Ana turns it around, and finishes close to the top, unless the win the cup, will it be much later in the round then our first was in the Kesler trade? Really the difference is a first vs a second. Now it may end up being worse if Ana doesn't recover.