Brad Larsen - move on or ride it out - poll

[majormajor]

Well, The issue with Torts is if you couldn't or didn't mold to what he wanted, you were punished. He was not good about playing to others strengths in most cases.

If Lars plan was to encourage natural talent, he should give them more than 10 minutes of ice time. He hasn't trusted Kent Johnson until he had to. I think part of letting them be themselves included letting them take their lumps. I get wanting to be patient with young players but at times its like he's scared of letting them succeed as themselves.

Lars has a crazy young hockey team with kids playing big roles right now. KJ was just drafted in 2021 and now he's playing a 1C role. Similar to PLD taking on that job a couple months into his D+2. And just like in that situation we persist in telling this story that the coach won't trust young players, even though it doesn't seem to be true relative to coaches as a whole (who always generally trust experience).

The general problem of the Blue Jackets is not an inability to trust young players. If anything it's putting too much trust in them.

The mystical system he's asked the players to learn also seems counter productive to letting the players be themselves because everybody seems to be confused on what to do. If their natural talent is a failure, then we have a drafting and development problem. Its not like we've never had a prospect fail here before.

I think everyone on this team has talent. The issue is that everything is reactionary and deliberate. They very rarely play on instinct.

I don't know if there was much of a system change, it seems to have been very minor. They look bewildered and unnatural but losing and failing to execute will also do that to you.

 

[koteka]

We think Jarmo reacted well with the Laine trade? I'm not trying to dump on Laine, he is what he is and we might as well hope he can get healthier and do better for us, but the moment that trade happened it was clear enough to me that we were going to take a big step back as a franchise.


I'm sure Jarmo did have a plan there - make a #1C swap. He couldn't find that deal and then Torts forced him to hurry up, which ended up with us getting caved in in the literal center of our lineup.

I‘d say the return for PLD was more than anyone expected given the situation. So I would say it is a very good reactionary move - getting the guy picked ahead of PLD plus another first round draft choice who happened to be a Columbus kid. You could make the argument that Jarmo was too focused on winning (or at least not losing) each of his big trades at the expense of focusing on building a winning team, and I think that is a fair criticism.

 

[Viqsi]

I‘d say the return for PLD was more than anyone expected given the situation. So I would say it is a very good reactionary move - getting the guy picked ahead of PLD plus another first round draft choice who happened to be a Columbus kid. You could make the argument that Jarmo was too focused on winning (or at least not losing) each of his big trades at the expense of focusing on building a winning team, and I think that is a fair criticism.

I mostly agree, but I'm not sure I'd criticize it much, myself. When you're stuffed in a corner like that, GMs aren't going to do you favors, so going for the Right Return w/r/t roster construction could arguably leave you even worse off. That's about the only time I'd consider "minmaxing value" to be a potentially appropriate approach to a trade, but it makes some sense to me.

Obviously I'd still prefer better in the end, tho. Maybe we'll get there. Doesn't look great now, but, well, I've doubted Kekalainen before and gotten burned for it, so.

 

[majormajor]

I‘d say the return for PLD was more than anyone expected given the situation. So I would say it is a very good reactionary move - getting the guy picked ahead of PLD plus another first round draft choice who happened to be a Columbus kid. You could make the argument that Jarmo was too focused on winning (or at least not losing) each of his big trades at the expense of focusing on building a winning team, and I think that is a fair criticism.

It wasn't more than I expected, it was less. I expected a 1C swap. But thanks to Torts time ran out and Jarmo took the longstanding Winnipeg offer. Only among fans is a wildly mercurial winger worth more than a big 1C who just scored 10 pts in 10 postseason games. I am without a doubt that among GMs Dubois >> Laine. Jarmo got backed into taking the lesser value player, who happened to be a bigger name among fans.

 

[koteka]

It wasn't more than I expected, it was less. I expected a 1C swap. But thanks to Torts time ran out and Jarmo took the longstanding Winnipeg offer. Only among fans is a wildly mercurial winger worth more than a big 1C who just scored 10 pts in 10 postseason games. I am without a doubt that among GMs Dubois >> Laine. Jarmo got backed into taking the lesser value player, who happened to be a bigger name among fans.

Nobody was going to give up a 1c close to Dubois’ ability. Why would they give up on their own guy? The return for Dubois might have been a solid 2c and a pick or a second player, but it would have been a definite downgrade in talent.

 

[majormajor]

Nobody was going to give up a 1c close to Dubois’ ability. Why would they give up on their own guy? The return for Dubois might have been a solid 2c and a pick or a second player, but it would have been a definite downgrade in talent.

I was hoping we would get a guy less optimized for the playoffs like Barzal or a guy who wasn't a proven 1C yet but had a chance like Suzuki. On value Dubois should have been ahead of Suzuki then, and vs Barzal it would depend on how the Isles feel about player type.

I'm sure Jarmo would have swapped for Barzal if that was available, but it wasn't, at least not in that short window. He probably could have gotten Suzuki though. I can't imagine the Habs would have said no to that given how unproven Suzuki was at the time.

 

[koteka]

I was hoping we would get a guy less optimized for the playoffs like Barzal or a guy who wasn't a proven 1C yet but had a chance like Suzuki. On value Dubois should have been ahead of Suzuki then, and vs Barzal it would depend on how the Isles feel about player type.

I'm sure Jarmo would have swapped for Barzal if that was available, but it wasn't, at least not in that short window. He probably could have gotten Suzuki though. I can't imagine the Habs would have said no to that given how unproven Suzuki was at the time.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I think Barzal is better than PLD. I have never understood the Barzal hate. He has led his team to the Eastern Conference finals twice. He is like the opposite of Mitch Marner (in a good way). I am sure we would have made that trade, but the Islanders would have laughed. I think the plan in Montreal has always been to just wait for PLD. Why give up assets for a guy who wants to be there? It will be interesting to see what they offer him in free agency. They wont make the same mistake Toronto made with Tavares — they’ll want a team friendly deal. A team like Tampa might have been willing to do a Stamkos for PLD trade, but Stamkos could block trades. So I don’t think there was much in the center market.

 

[majormajor]

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I think Barzal is better than PLD. I have never understood the Barzal hate. He has led his team to the Eastern Conference finals twice. He is like the opposite of Mitch Marner (in a good way). I am sure we would have made that trade, but the Islanders would have laughed.

Position aside, I'd much rather have Marner. Barzal is all skating. They're both untouchable and Marner is a lot more brilliant in his distribution.

I think the plan in Montreal has always been to just wait for PLD.

You think that was Bergevin's plan in 2020 when his team had won in the postseason and was one year before going to the Finals, to wait five years for a proper 1C?

 

[Farmboy Patty]

How funny is it that Brunette took over a Florida team last season 7 games into the year after Quenneville was forced out, led the Panthers to the President's Trophy, was a Jack Adams finalist, and Florida was like, "nah, we gotta get Paul Maurice in here!" - a pretty mediocre coach who QUIT ON HIS TEAM halfway through last season.

Fast forward and let's see how everyone is doing:
-Brunette goes to NJ (with some believing a handshake deal to take over for Ruff) and the Devils, who have been to the playoffs once (a first round exit in 2018) since their SCF loss in 2012 and have finished 7th or 8th in their division each of the last four seasons, suddenly become a top 5ish team in the league and are the early season darlings/surprise of the league, at one point going 21-2-1 with a 13-game winning streak before their bad goaltending has caught up with them in recent weeks.
-Paul Maurice takes over, again, the reigning President's Trophy winners coming off a 122-point season, and the Panthers are just...bad? They're 11-14-3 in their last 28 games and currently sit at fake-.500, 12th in the East, and 6 points back of Washington for WC2, with the Capitals set to get Tom Wilson and Nicklas Backstrom back soon.
-Meanwhile, Maurice's old team - the one he quit on - is now 2nd in the Western Conference by points %.

Hmmm, who is Florida's GM?

If anything, this cements my opinion on PoMo as a coach. I have no idea what the Panthers FO were thinking when hiring him. His track record speaks for itself…

 

[majormajor]

If anything, this cements my opinion on PoMo as a coach. I have no idea what the Panthers FO were thinking when hiring him. His track record speaks for itself…

Sometimes things change that aren't always the reflection of the coach.

His Winnipeg Jets teams had terrible xGs / possession but beat teams thanks to Hellebuyck's saves and Laine and Scheifele's snipes.

His Florida Panthers teams are 5th in the league in xG%. It doesn't like the Panthers have become his Jets.

 

[koteka]

You think that was Bergevin's plan in 2020 when his team had won in the postseason and was one year before going to the Finals, to wait five years for a proper 1C?

I think Drouin made them cautious about another big trade for a French speaking “savior of the franchise” type.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

Sometimes things change that aren't always the reflection of the coach.

His Winnipeg Jets teams had terrible xGs / possession but beat teams thanks to Hellebuyck's saves and Laine and Scheifele's snipes.

His Florida Panthers teams are 5th in the league in xG%. It doesn't like the Panthers have become his Jets.

I was referring to his entire career as a losing coach. The Panthers team have a lot of quality players with experience, so the on ice leadership is ther. Now, I’m not saying that the team is like a player piano, but I think that most coaches with a few seasons under their belt would do pretty good with that team.

 

[LazyCircuits]

I was hoping we would get a guy less optimized for the playoffs like Barzal or a guy who wasn't a proven 1C yet but had a chance like Suzuki. On value Dubois should have been ahead of Suzuki then, and vs Barzal it would depend on how the Isles feel about player type.

I'm sure Jarmo would have swapped for Barzal if that was available, but it wasn't, at least not in that short window. He probably could have gotten Suzuki though. I can't imagine the Habs would have said no to that given how unproven Suzuki was at the time.

Whenever anyone questions Jarmo, I watch this video and think the return was a young middle six forward and an elite shooter drafted 2oa

Sadly the Fleetwood Mac version of this video has gone

 

[stevo61]

Why are we trying to rewrite history like Jarmo had options he didnt? Columbus reportedly asked for Suzuki and Montreal offered Kotkaniemi. Torts ran his mouth and PLD turned into a whiney little bitch before Jarmo could find the deal he was clearly looking for.

 

[Viqsi]

Why are we trying to rewrite history like Jarmo had options he didnt?

Because truth is optional when there's an agenda to pursue.

 

[thebus88]

Seemingly wrong thread (even though Jarmo/Larsen are inherently ingrained), however, NOBODY knows what other offers were available/possible. Once again, we have one side attacking the other, while doing the same exact things.

Who knows what draft picks or “prospects” were available that could be closer to being a legit center right now than both Sillinger and Johnson. Not to mention possibly being MORE impactful than Laine, now and being younger, moving forward.

Quite frankly, even most of the fans of Roslovic/Laine look at them as overpaid and essentially “immovable” as their value as assets wouldn’t return anything of substantial value. Laine is only “trending up” in the minds of his fanboys and long standing CBJ fans in DENIAL.

Keeping Dubois a bit longer wouldn’t have damaged the team/organization any more that where we are at now. Laine wasn’t the player to “build around”, and that’s essentially what we have done, and it’s turned out terribly like some of us predicted. Jarmo would have been better off getting 1-2 players that could play center, not Jack f***ing Roslovic, and not a 1 dimensional offensive player that was “owed” a contract that he was almost guaranteed to be overpaid on.

Larsen was set up to fail. Laine should have been looked at as no different than Dubois, and should have been dealt after arguing with coaches on the bench.

The roster moves Jarmo has made the last few years have essentially trumped any positive feelings I had for him after he had a huge impact on turning the CBJ into a team that I really couldn’t have asked for much more, as they literally could beat any team in the league on any given night. f***ing sad, especially just how quickly it all went to shit.

What I genuinely don’t understand is WHY they abandoned the “mindset” and “style” that brought them the perception and success they had worked so hard all those years to become. I absolutely believe there might have been some sort of “pressure” from above Jarmo, feeding off the IGNORANCE of many Ohio hockey fans on “social media” wanting a DIFFERENT “more exciting” product on the ice. To THOSE PEOPLE, and it WAS many, you got exactly what you wanted and what some of us absolutely warned about.

 

[Viqsi]

Keeping Dubois a bit longer wouldn’t have damaged the team/organization any more that where we are at now.

This is where I stopped taking anything you wrote in that post seriously. Because come the f*** on, really? REALLY?

I miss that team too. But Kekalainen wasn't the one who killed it. He built it. Dubois and Jones forcing their way out - because they forced their way out - is what killed it. I know you like those players, and I liked them too, but they forced their way out. FACE IT AND DEAL WITH IT ALREADY. THEY. FORCED. THEIR. WAY. OUT. It's not because of your persecution complex. It's not because of a tiny minority of folks here wanting something more flashy. It's not because something something Patrik Laine. They forced their way out. They did it. Panarin and PLD and Jones. Their call. They made the decision. It was them. Stop trying to blame anyone and everyone other than the guys you like, because the guys you like are the ones who made the decision. Deal with it already.

 

[thebus88]

This is where I stopped taking anything you wrote in that post seriously. Because come the f*** on, really? REALLY?

I miss that team too. But Kekalainen wasn't the one who killed it. He built it. Dubois and Jones forcing their way out - because they forced their way out - is what killed it. I know you like those players, and I liked them too, but they forced their way out. FACE IT AND DEAL WITH IT ALREADY. THEY. FORCED. THEIR. WAY. OUT. It's not because of your persecution complex. It's not because of a tiny minority of folks here wanting something more flashy. It's not because something something Patrik Laine. They forced their way out. They did it. Panarin and PLD and Jones. Their call. They made the decision. It was them. Stop trying to blame anyone and everyone other than the guys you like, because the guys you like are the ones who made the decision. Deal with it already.

All 3 guys are completely different. While Dubois was clearly the worst of the 3, and arguably DID “force his way out”, the point is that there was NO need to rush the move (as people use this as an excuse for the return) and it’s essentially been PROVEN that Laine (and Roslovic) should not be looked at as a “good” or the “best offer available”, and that’s without even knowing the other offers, as this 1 has and will continue to fail.

Your comments/accusations on the number/breakdown of fans who wanted a change in “style” and subsequently a new coach ARE BULLSHIT!! “Tiny minority of folks” is nothing more than a lie, saying it was a 50/50 split would still be giving the benefit of the doubt, I believe.

Why didn’t Jones “force his way out” sooner??

What would have happened if Jarmo signed Domi for a few years and brought in Caleb Jones??

Oh, you don’t know, you sure speak on things like you know….

 

[Viqsi]

All 3 guys are completely different. While Dubois was clearly the worst of the 3, and arguably DID “force his way out”, the point is that it’s essentially been PROVEN that Laine (and Roslovic) should not be looked at as a “good” or the “best offer available”, and that’s without even knowing the other offers, as this 1 has failed.

No, it has not been proven, because we don't know what other offers were possible. Unless you're thinking of Laine as so horribly toxic and evil that anything would be better, which is hyperbolic garbage.

Your comments/accusations on the number/breakdown of fans who wanted a change in “style” and subsequently a new coach ARE BULLSHIT!! “Tiny minority of folks” is nothing more than a lie, saying it was a 50/50 split would still be giving the benefit of the doubt.

There were two or three people here advocating for it. That's it. Thinking there was more is just overemphasizing the negative. The majority of people here were happy with the team, and some of us were extremely happy. The complainers were loud, but the complainers are always loud and they're incapable of being satisfied.

Why didn’t Jones “force his way out” sooner??

He wasn't up for a new contract sooner. And losing PLD probably didn't help.

What would have happened if Jarmo signed Domi for a few years and brought in Caleb Jones??

That wouldn't have done a damn thing for Panarin or PLD. And I doubt it'd have much to do with Jones either.

Face it. They forced their way out. Sometimes your heroes have flaws. Get over it already.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

There were two or three people here advocating for it. That's it.

Sounds like “you guys” to me.

 

[Cowumbus]

 

[DarkandStormy]

We have reached the Todd Richards Index*

*going 0-7, which in the past resulted in a firing of the head coach

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

My expectations for this season weren't very high but I didn't expect it to be this bad. Injuries have obviously played a role but every team is subject to them.

If tomorrow's game is a Buffalo-like disaster, I would expect Lars to be gone the next day. New Year, new coach, new approach.

 

[thebus88]

That Laine-Gaudreau duo isn’t “unfair” to the other teams is the league, it’s unfair to Larsen.

 

[Cowumbus]

That Laine-Gaudreau duo isn’t “unfair” to the other teams is the league, it’s unfair to Larsen.

They shouldn’t be even be a duo.