Rumor: Botchford - " Aqualini veto'd a Kesler trade to Pitt "

[Draino]

I said he's obviously the BPA NOW. Like knowing what we do now, it's obvious...thus the word "was".

There are some teams who ranked him 1st overall, many people even remarked at that draft that he had 1st overall talent, but NHL executives are scared of skinny kids.

He wasn't a reach. He's not a masterstroke of Benning's drafting ability.

Name the teams that had him ranked first overall with an accompanying source.

 

[4Twenty]

Oh now ranking him in a "group" validates the position that he was an obvious pick? Didnt McKenzie interview a bunch of scouts on the eve of the 2016 draft before he produced an article that stated Juolevi was ranked in the same tier of players as Tkachuk (same tier of players after the big 3 that year)? but that doesnt count.

I wasn't talking about Juolevi. I never cared for him as a prospect.

Bob Mackenzie called him the top "all around dman in the draft"....what that means to me, is jack of all, master of none.

I disagreed with Juolevi's rankings, just as I disagreed with the idiots who had Pettersson 20th or whatever (people will still appeal to Pronman's ability to rank prospects for whatever reason).

 

[4Twenty]

Not getting desperate at all (in fact,I’ve already said if he doesn’t cut it next year..he’s out)

Au contraire..you’re getting desperate by saying that EP wasn’t a reach at 5...

You and a few others can get away with ridiculous comments like that here in the collective mind hive,and get away with it..

Anywhere else and you would be swiftly disassembled .

THE TEAM BROUGHT HIM TO VANCOUVER BEFORE THE DRAFT. CLEARLY THEY THOUGHT HE WAS REASONABLY SITUATED AS A TOP 5 PICK. HE WAS NEVER A REACH.

 

[Draino]

I wasn't talking about Juolevi. I never cared for him as a prospect.

Bob Mackenzie called him the top "all around dman in the draft"....what that means to me, is jack of all, master of none.

I disagreed with Juolevi's rankings, just as I disagreed with the idiots who had Pettersson 20th or whatever (people will still appeal to Pronman's ability to rank prospects for whatever reason).

fair enough. i cringe when i see some of those rankings that had pettersson in the late teens..

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

THE TEAM BROUGHT HIM TO VANCOUVER BEFORE THE DRAFT. CLEARLY THEY THOUGHT HE WAS REASONABLY SITUATED AS A TOP 5 PICK. HE WAS NEVER A REACH.

Nice backpedaling..you’ve gone from calling him the obvious BPA..to being in the obvious 2nd tier (everybody here had him rated 9th)

Now claiming that because he was flown over here .his draft rating improved?

Can’t wait to hear the next one?

 

[4Twenty]

fair enough. i cringe when i see some of those rankings that had pettersson in the late teens..

Yeah, it really makes you take these rankings with a huge grain of salt, like in 2015 when teams had Crouse ahead of Marner....just insane stuff.

I don't profess to be an expert, and we all have biases, and they change over time, i just thought he was highly skilled and you want to take the best skill. My top 5 was Patrick, Hischier, Vilardi, Pettersson, Mittelstadt...so it's not like I out smarted anyone either. The two D look better than I thought, I wasn't privy to Villardi's medical records, and my WHL bias had Patrick over Hischier.

 

[4Twenty]

Nice backpedaling..you’ve gone from calling him the obvious BPA..to being in the obvious 2nd tier (everybody here had him rated 9th)

Now claiming that because he was flown over here .his draft rating improved?

Can’t wait to hear the next one?

What am I back pedalling from?

I stated it's obvious now, that he was the BPA then. Because he's the BPA of the whole draft. Your comprehension sucks or I wrote it poorly, either way, my point hasn't changed.

I didn't claim his draft rating improved by coming to Vancouver, I'm stating the Canucks owned the 5th, flew him and Glass to Van, pretty much showing the world they thought he had potential at that spot in the draft.

Don't know why you point to hfboards rankings either, it's a hive mind as you say.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

It doesn’t matter since we could easily have Tkachuk, McCann, Nylander/Ehlers, DeBrincat/Girard/Hart, and Forsling - not even including the many other picks Benning has dealt. Any idiot could have assembled a better young core.

Ok there Captain Hindsight..Would you have been happy if Micheal Dal Colle has fallen to us in 2014.?..or Jesse Puljijarvi in 2016..

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

What am I back pedalling from?

I stated it's obvious now, that he was the BPA then. Because he's the BPA of the whole draft. Your comprehension sucks or I wrote it poorly, either way, my point hasn't changed.

I didn't claim his draft rating improved by coming to Vancouver, I'm stating the Canucks owned the 5th, flew him and Glass to Van, pretty much showing the world they thought he had potential at that spot in the draft.

Don't know why you point to hfboards rankings either, it's a hive mind as you say.

Canucks pretty much telegraphed that they would pick a D man in 2016..what’s the difference between EP and OJ..?...Both high IQ players,both Euro,both physically underdeveloped..

The mindset is identical to both picks.

 

[4Twenty]

Canucks pretty much telegraphed that they would pick a D man in 2016..what’s the difference between EP and OJ..?...Both high IQ players,both Euro,both physically underdeveloped..

The mindset is identical to both picks.

I'm glad you're willing to admit they telegraphed the D.

I don't think the mindset is identical at all. Pettersson and even Hughes last year were huge homerun swings at talent, Juolevi wasn't the most talented defensman let alone player available. I actually think the Juolevi reach is what pushed them towards these "riskier" yet high upsides, high talent players in later drafts.

Mackenzie's list called Juolevi the "best all around dman", which is jargon meaning no standout qualities.

Pettersson was being called the most skilled or one of in the whole class being held back by his "size".

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Ok there Captain Hindsight..Would you have been happy if Micheal Dal Colle has fallen to us in 2014.?..or Jesse Puljijarvi in 2016..

It’s not hindsight lol. Tkachuk and Nylander/Ehlers were BPA at the time. Holding onto valuable future assets like McCann and 33rd overall as a rebuilding team is common sense.

 

[sting101]

Why do Benning arguments evolve to anything about drafting? There is a 20yr history that basically outlines he's pretty much average and prone to targetting spot fillers vs BPA which is exactly how you pass up a franchise level LW like Tkachuk.

At the end of the day a guy that evaluates Gudbranson Clendening Pedan Vey Beagle Schaller Sbisa Lucic Eriksson etc and is willing to spend insane amounts of resources to secure these players is not a person fit to make astute deals to fill his roster when it comes time to contend. The fact is with Benning we are looking at a Gm that will do exactly the opposite and bleed the opportunity to contend that may be afforded almost entirely due to ineptitude in results and trade away another McCann (maybe Virtanen or Demko next time) throw in draft picks and miss a great young prospect and aquire trash that another team smartly moves away from.

Benning is a mark. Agents and GMs are wise to this. Why would any smart owner that cares about winning a cup want someone so prone to mistakes and losing deals?

All thsi circle jerk about the Sedins and results and crappy depth is honestly just a waste of time. Benning should have known that untill he gets enough top level players (a great young core) that it would all be meaningless and what did he do about it? He pissed away almost 2 drafts worth of picks and whiffed on a few young stud players (Tkachuk McCann and Theodore) and here we are still searching for 3-5 really good pieces so we can turn a corner instead of being on the cusp of something exciting.

5 yrs and he was given Horvat Markstrom Edler Tanev and Hutton....plus Kesler Hamhuis Hansen Burrows to make this team good again

Pettersson Boeser and Hughes is not some great badge of accomplishment. Stecher Pearson Leivo Baertschi are decet players but lets be honest with ourselves. Outside of Stecher all those guys were expendable by good teams that evaluated their rosters and decided they had better options in the roles they employ.

At this point any argument for Benning staying on has be based upon a belief that he would miraculously become something he is not. Nobody realistic would expect him (or their desired GM) to be perfect and not make some mistakes but the scariest thing of all when it comes to a GM is having one that watches hockey and comes away with poor conclusions. One that cannot project 3-5yrs down the road and one that cannot navigate through the Collective and Salary cap to ensure he doesn't lose assets or opportunities.

 

[4Twenty]

Benning only has drafting to stand on, that's why. It's also why very few people who use drafting to pump his tires ever look at other teams in the league, they just compare it to the poor draft record in Vancouver.

Boston has blown Vancouver out of the water at the draft during Benning's tenure.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

And still the majority of the core players are still left over from Gillis. Benning is responsible for TWO players who are contributing in a significant way. Everyone else from Benning is either still far away from making a mark or (the majority) just placeholders as you call it. Just picking BPA in the first round would have yielded a better team than what Benning is trying to do (and yes I am aware that would probably would mean no Pettersson).

Take any dude from the street and tell him pick BPA according to hockeyprospect.com Black Book in the first round:

2014: Nikolaj Ehlers
2015: Nick Merkley
2016: Matthew Tkachuk
2017: Elias Pettersson
2018: Noah Dobson

but Benning DRAFT GOD!!!!!

Whom Would Toddler of Drafted?

I thought it would be interesting to compare Benning's 1st round picks to the lowest bar possible. Give a toddler a flash card with the top 5 left on Bob Mckenzie's draft rankings and have him pick by inee minee miny mo. To simiulate this I used a random number generator. Each player was assigned a number from 1-5 depending on where they were ranked among Bob's list.

Toddler picks:

Haydn Fleury
Brock Boeser
Matthew Tkachuk
Michael Rasmussen
Noah Dobson

So far Benning has 2 1st liners\top pairing D while the Toddler also has 2. Benning's prospect wins because of Hughes as, he is better than the toddler's other prospects.

Is the toddler a drafting god too?

 

[Peter10]

Ok there Captain Hindsight..Would you have been happy if Micheal Dal Colle has fallen to us in 2014.?..or Jesse Puljijarvi in 2016..

Having Dal Colle and Puljujarvi instead of Virtanen and Juolevi wouldnt make a whole lot of a difference.

 

[xtra]

EP has a compete level that OJ has never shown and I stand by the belief that OJ was carried in his draft year - by the knights big 3 and Finland’s big 3; just see how he did after they were gone

 

[Pip]

Y’all gotta stop arguing with POM in his funhouse of tricks. Stop letting him deflect to EP and drafting.

 

[Turin]

It was Sutter, 1st and probably Dumoulin or Harrington. Pretty glad it didn’t happen in hindsight despite really wanting it to in 2014.

 

[StreetHawk]

It was Sutter, 1st and probably Dumoulin or Harrington. Pretty glad it didn’t happen in hindsight despite really wanting it to in 2014.

Most GMs don’t go from operating with a contending team to wanting to do a full rebuild with a year.

The Canucks at 2013 were not structured to contend given their division in CA was made up of big heavy teams which was the way it was going during that time.

But they had a lot of veterans with ntc contracts on the books.

I would have expected a move or two involving the core. But from the sounds of things Gillis wasn’t going to flip futures/prospects from a Kesler deal to get veterans for a final run with the twins. Try changing the core a bit and give it that fina year with the twins. If you go down again early then that’s it.

 

[Rowlet]

I wasn't talking about Juolevi. I never cared for him as a prospect.

Bob Mackenzie called him the top "all around dman in the draft"....what that means to me, is jack of all, master of none.

I disagreed with Juolevi's rankings, just as I disagreed with the idiots who had Pettersson 20th or whatever (people will still appeal to Pronman's ability to rank prospects for whatever reason).

check out how this phrase actually ends

 

[Draino]

Why do Benning arguments evolve to anything about drafting? There is a 20yr history that basically outlines he's pretty much average and prone to targetting spot fillers vs BPA which is exactly how you pass up a franchise level LW like Tkachuk.

At the end of the day a guy that evaluates Gudbranson Clendening Pedan Vey Beagle Schaller Sbisa Lucic Eriksson etc and is willing to spend insane amounts of resources to secure these players is not a person fit to make astute deals to fill his roster when it comes time to contend. The fact is with Benning we are looking at a Gm that will do exactly the opposite and bleed the opportunity to contend that may be afforded almost entirely due to ineptitude in results and trade away another McCann (maybe Virtanen or Demko next time) throw in draft picks and miss a great young prospect and aquire trash that another team smartly moves away from.

Benning is a mark. Agents and GMs are wise to this. Why would any smart owner that cares about winning a cup want someone so prone to mistakes and losing deals?

All thsi circle jerk about the Sedins and results and crappy depth is honestly just a waste of time. Benning should have known that untill he gets enough top level players (a great young core) that it would all be meaningless and what did he do about it? He pissed away almost 2 drafts worth of picks and whiffed on a few young stud players (Tkachuk McCann and Theodore) and here we are still searching for 3-5 really good pieces so we can turn a corner instead of being on the cusp of something exciting.

5 yrs and he was given Horvat Markstrom Edler Tanev and Hutton....plus Kesler Hamhuis Hansen Burrows to make this team good again

Pettersson Boeser and Hughes is not some great badge of accomplishment. Stecher Pearson Leivo Baertschi are decet players but lets be honest with ourselves. Outside of Stecher all those guys were expendable by good teams that evaluated their rosters and decided they had better options in the roles they employ.

At this point any argument for Benning staying on has be based upon a belief that he would miraculously become something he is not. Nobody realistic would expect him (or their desired GM) to be perfect and not make some mistakes but the scariest thing of all when it comes to a GM is having one that watches hockey and comes away with poor conclusions. One that cannot project 3-5yrs down the road and one that cannot navigate through the Collective and Salary cap to ensure he doesn't lose assets or opportunities.

I dont post much, but i do drop in and read the topics quite a bit. Just would like to say that you are my favorite poster in here because you have well thought out posts and are not afraid to call out anyone. The post above is an example of this. It really makes me re-consider some of my positions.

Generally speaking I have given Benning a lot of rope because of the state of the team in terms of the number of young impact players that were in the org when he took over. I think it would have taken at least 4-5 years to turn this ship around no matter who was at the helm.

That said, he has made 3 big mistakes in my mind:

1. Eriksson - I attribute this to trying to milk the Gillis era core for one or possibly more runs. I think the owner did not want to rebuild, he had just handed the Sedins 14 million, and Loui was an attempt to bolster (patch) the old guard.
2. Gudbranson - I attribute this acquisition to a knee jerk reaction he had to the Calgary series where our flaccid D core was humiliated by the Calgary forecheck (especially Ferland). The fans were embarrassed, the team was embarrassed and Im sure management was embarrassed by being mauled in that fashion. Right or wrong, they probably thought a future d with both Tryamkin and Gudbranson would really protect the team from that sort of dismantling.
3. Juolevi over Tkachuk - this one has been beaten to death. I can see why he did it, it looks really bad now and its getting worse.


I see the vast majority of the rest of his moves as low cost moves in terms of assets and UFA money. When I say low cost I mean what are the chances that Pedan plus a 4th has a higher impact than Pouliot? When I say UFA money i mean at this point in the team's trajectory where they can afford to overspend in the UFA market.

Basically I think his moves have allowed the team to follow a natural down cycle and keep it there for while the team's new core is accumulated via the draft. I dont think Del Zotto and Gagner were brought in here to compete for a playoff spot. The filler players and filler contracts have allowed the team to draft high for 5 years - its something this team desperately needed. The fact that they have lost position in the draft lotto has probably hurt them.

By summer time he will have this core:
Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes, 2019th first round pick

Plus possible core pieces:
Demko, Woo, Madden, Gaudette,Juolevi (and any other 2019 post first round picks)

(everyone else i see as a long shot)

After this year it will be the first time that it will make sense to go after high impact UFAs . He will have enough young players and prospects that he can trade for at least equivalent players in needed positions. For instance trade Gaudette/Virtanen plus draft picks for a d man etc. If he did this earlier (like giving up what Calgary did for Hamilton or Hamonic) it would not have made sense. I see people complaining about the D all the time. The d does suck, but it costs a lot to build a good d. He could not afford to give up the picks or young pieces.

Basically what im trying to say is now that he actually has a core group of young players I think we are going to see more than filler moves. With good young players he will be able to attract more than just the Beagle/Roussel calibre UFAS.

In my mind the real scrutiny begins now. He will actually have a young core to build around and his objectives should be clearly aligned with the owners objectives. If he makes a series of mistakes in this context he should be shown the door ASAP.

 

[4Twenty]

check out how this phrase actually ends

educate me...I don't like homework.

Better than a master of one? Is that what you wanted me to find?

The term all around hockey player is jargon, just like 200ft, or skates well for his size. They're just buzzwords.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Aquaman didn’t trust Gillis to pull the trigger on a major trade, but entrusted Benning instead.. yikes!

 

[sting101]

I dont post much, but i do drop in and read the topics quite a bit. Just would like to say that you are my favorite poster in here because you have well thought out posts and are not afraid to call out anyone. The post above is an example of this. It really makes me re-consider some of my positions.

Generally speaking I have given Benning a lot of rope because of the state of the team in terms of the number of young impact players that were in the org when he took over. I think it would have taken at least 4-5 years to turn this ship around no matter who was at the helm.

That said, he has made 3 big mistakes in my mind:

1. Eriksson - I attribute this to trying to milk the Gillis era core for one or possibly more runs. I think the owner did not want to rebuild, he had just handed the Sedins 14 million, and Loui was an attempt to bolster (patch) the old guard.
2. Gudbranson - I attribute this acquisition to a knee jerk reaction he had to the Calgary series where our flaccid D core was humiliated by the Calgary forecheck (especially Ferland). The fans were embarrassed, the team was embarrassed and Im sure management was embarrassed by being mauled in that fashion. Right or wrong, they probably thought a future d with both Tryamkin and Gudbranson would really protect the team from that sort of dismantling.
3. Juolevi over Tkachuk - this one has been beaten to death. I can see why he did it, it looks really bad now and its getting worse.


I see the vast majority of the rest of his moves as low cost moves in terms of assets and UFA money. When I say low cost I mean what are the chances that Pedan plus a 4th has a higher impact than Pouliot? When I say UFA money i mean at this point in the team's trajectory where they can afford to overspend in the UFA market.

Basically I think his moves have allowed the team to follow a natural down cycle and keep it there for while the team's new core is accumulated via the draft. I dont think Del Zotto and Gagner were brought in here to compete for a playoff spot. The filler players and filler contracts have allowed the team to draft high for 5 years - its something this team desperately needed. The fact that they have lost position in the draft has probably hurt them.

By summer time he will have this core:
Horvat, Pettersson, Boeser, Hughes, 2019th first round pick

Plus possible core pieces:
Demko, Woo, Madden, Gaudette,Juolevi (and any other 2019 post first round picks)

(everyone else i see as a long shot)

After this year it will be the first time that it will make sense to go after high impact UFAs . He will have enough young players and prospects that he can trade for at least equivalent players in needed positions. For instance trade Gaudette/Virtanen plus draft picks for a d man etc. If he did this earlier (like giving up what Calgary did for Hamilton or Hamonic) it would not have made sense. I see people complaining about the D all the time. The d does suck, but it costs a lot to build a good d. He could not afford to give up the picks or young pieces.

Basically what im trying to say is now that he actually has a core group of young players I think we are going to see more than filler moves. With good young players he will be able to attract more than just the Beagle/Roussel calibre UFAS.

In my mind the real scrutiny begins now. He will actually have a young core to build around and his objectives should be clearly aligned with the owners objectives. If he makes a series of mistakes in this context he should be shown the door ASAP.

Thanks for the kind words.

i have taken a beating over the years challenging popular opinion in here but thats what makes it interesting. and yes i would say i'm an inherently positive person so i like to call out people who talk ill of players and hockey people who think its so easy. Sometimes that leaves me defending people/players i'm not even really fans of Granlund Gudbranson come to mind...lol

As far as Benning i have always had a soft spot for him and i know people who know him and admire and respect him. He is not as dumb as people think he is in this forum. He puts himself in bad situations a lot because of the obligations he feels to season ticket holders, ownership and the players and unlike the sidelines where no one has to make concessions he does and cares. He is a generally honest nice and thoughtful man. There is a reason he gets lots of rope from the media types and ownership and there is some nice pieces in play.

I think your breakdown is pretty fair and i can tell you are aware unlike some around here that the losses were inevitable and the way to judge his performance lyes more in the foundation for a contender.

The problem i have with Jim is in trust. As i said in my post i just dont have it and dont feel he deserves it anymore due to the confusing mixed directions and poor choices. Much of my opinions on how to build and on specific players have not aligned with Benning and if that was the case but things were working out for him and the team i would love to have his back but i just dont see it and its not.

This cannot happen if we are to ever win a championship and the clock is ticking now. Your retool/rebuild has to align with your best players best years and in 2 to 3 we need to be aligned. We need someone super astute that wont make crippling mistakes. Good tough decisions need to be made.

 

[xtra]

However nice he is has no bearing on how he is as a gm; if he can’t separate emotions ( loyalty to players) then he is not fit for the job.

As I am a season ticket holder he obviously forgot about my feelings when trying to build this shitty team when a clear rebuild was needed.

For you to assume that we think it’s easy to play in the nhl is hyperbole - (show me 5 people on here that think it’s easy to play) we said they suck (granlund and gudbrandson) because they suck relative to their peers and other nhl players.