Rumor: Botchford - " Aqualini veto'd a Kesler trade to Pitt "

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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Thanks for the kind words.

i have taken a beating over the years challenging popular opinion in here but thats what makes it interesting. and yes i would say i'm an inherently positive person so i like to call out people who talk ill of players and hockey people who think its so easy. Sometimes that leaves me defending people/players i'm not even really fans of Granlund Gudbranson come to mind...lol

As far as Benning i have always had a soft spot for him and i know people who know him and admire and respect him. He is not as dumb as people think he is in this forum. He puts himself in bad situations a lot because of the obligations he feels to season ticket holders, ownership and the players and unlike the sidelines where no one has to make concessions he does and cares. He is a generally honest nice and thoughtful man. There is a reason he gets lots of rope from the media types and ownership and there is some nice pieces in play.

I think your breakdown is pretty fair and i can tell you are aware unlike some around here that the losses were inevitable and the way to judge his performance lyes more in the foundation for a contender.

The problem i have with Jim is in trust. As i said in my post i just dont have it and dont feel he deserves it anymore due to the confusing mixed directions and poor choices. Much of my opinions on how to build and on specific players have not aligned with Benning and if that was the case but things were working out for him and the team i would love to have his back but i just dont see it and its not.

This cannot happen if we are to ever win a championship and the clock is ticking now. Your retool/rebuild has to align with your best players best years and in 2 to 3 we need to be aligned. We need someone super astute that wont make crippling mistakes. Good tough decisions need to be made.

So you think Benning “is not as dumb as some people in this forum think he is”. So you are saying he’s dumb then, right? I don’t care if Benning has a rocket scientist intellect. He’s a crappy GM, as evidenced by his many mistakes. All GMs make mistakes, but Benning has made way too many, as pointed out several times here.
 

sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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However nice he is has no bearing on how he is as a gm; if he can’t separate emotions ( loyalty to players) then he is not fit for the job.

As I am a season ticket holder he obviously forgot about my feelings when trying to build this ****ty team when a clear rebuild was needed.

For you to assume that we think it’s easy to play in the nhl is hyperbole - (show me 5 people on here that think it’s easy to play) we said they suck (granlund and gudbrandson) because they suck relative to their peers and other nhl players.
And this was my point?

It's just context. It could be any GM..... i could find fault in many of the decisions without attaching a human element to what the GM has to deal with or multitude of other factors that exist.

As i said it matters on a whole. How is things going to look down the road?

If the company you bought shares in is restructuring to make profit and you look at bottom lines annually while this is happening and judge accordingly then of course your going to be upset. These are real factors and ignoring them is hasty. Not foreseeing this and having season tickets is on you not Jim Benning a lot of people i know dumped them for Giants tickets until things were gonna look different for those 100+ dollar lower bowl tickets. Whatever your voice matters but pain was in the future and anyone could see it.

If you want to dive into the fine details of the decisions and how they effect going forward then that is a fairer topic. I obviously dont like the results and have said as much?

Relative to what peers. An average NHLer? i think most of my opinions have centred around being useful not good or above average players. People have shown hatred towards these guys? Tell me who's missing the plot here? and this is coming from a person who was explicit about detesting the McCann trade from the moment it happened....if they were just depth rather than minute munching regulars one getting masively overpaid things are likely different.....whatever i'm over it both made turns for the worse and have become full value for criticism of their contributions.
 

tantalum

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Anyone who says give him one more year is saying they are not sure he can do the job and needs to be put on a very short leash.

The problem with that thinking is that this summer with the cap space and the holes they need to start filling you can’t screw it up. If you do you are screwed for several years. If you are putting the current guy on a short leash because you don’t trust him long term then he’s the wrong guy to be in charge this summer. Full stop.
 

Dissonance Jr

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Oct 6, 2017
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It was Sutter, 1st and probably Dumoulin or Harrington. Pretty glad it didn’t happen in hindsight despite really wanting it to in 2014.

It’s funny how things work out. If this rumored deal was right, it would’ve been a disappointing return for Kesler. If that’s what Gillis was thinking, boo on him.

Except! What Benning ended up doing instead was essentially trade Kesler + Forsling + two 2nd round picks + a 4th round pick for Sutter, Pouliot, Pearson, and a 3rd (plus three seasons of Sbisa). Paying even more for less.
 

Turin

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Feb 27, 2018
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It’s funny. This would’ve been a hugely disappointing return for Kesler. If that’s what Gillis was thinking, it was bad.

Except! What Benning ended up doing instead was essentially trade Kesler + Forsling + two 2nd round picks + a 4th round pick for Sutter, Pouliot, Pearson, and a 3rd (plus three seasons of Sbisa). Paying even more for less.

What might’ve been Kapanen (Pens 1st) and Dumoulin would have been a legit haul if that’s what was on the table though.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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It’s funny how things work out. If this rumored deal was right, it would’ve been a disappointing return for Kesler. If that’s what Gillis was thinking, boo on him.

Except! What Benning ended up doing instead was essentially trade Kesler + Forsling + two 2nd round picks + a 4th round pick for Sutter, Pouliot, Pearson, and a 3rd (plus three seasons of Sbisa). Paying even more for less.

Your point is another reason (and a very strong onefir sure) why Benning should be fired.
He’s actually made us worse than if we had a GM who kept his picks, didn’t sign UFAs made no trades, drafted following central scouting rankings, and just let the natural transition from older players to younger players happen that.
 
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Cogburn

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If this is even partially true then we need Aquilini's 19 year old girlfriend to record him making racist statements to get the league to force him to sell.

Or something like that.

I know there isn't definitive proof but how much smoke before we can agree there is a fire?

Linden's out. Benning needs to be shown the door. And to paraphrase a comment I made in a different thread NCAA and Swedish scouting, Malhotra and Ian Clark are about the only people that don't need to be purged from this organization's staff.

If Benning doesn't start the process, then it is ownership to find someone who will. If he won't, someone needs to find proof he is doing something that would damage the league if it continued.
 
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Fatass

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If this is even partially true then we need Aquilini's 19 year old girlfriend to record him making racist statements to get the league to force him to sell.

Or something like that.

I know there isn't definitive proof but how much smoke before we can agree there is a fire?

Linden's out. Benning needs to be shown the door. And to paraphrase a comment I made in a different thread NCAA and Swedish scouting, Malhotra and Ian Clark are about the only people that don't need to be purged from this organization's staff.

If Benning doesn't start the process, then it is ownership to find someone who will. If he won't, someone needs to find proof he is doing something that would damage the league if it continued.

Aquilini is married, isn’t he? The guy is a meddlesome owner, but I won’t say he’s a pervert.
 

Cogburn

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Aquilini is married, isn’t he? The guy is a meddlesome owner, but I won’t say he’s a pervert.

Wasn't he going through a divorce? Even if not, I don't equate polyamory with perversion necessarily. Or even golddiggery per se. As long as all parties are aware of what is happening.

We're focusing on the wrong part of what I said though. That was what happened in LA with the Lakers not too long ago.
 

Peter10

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In response to other like minded posters to you who claim EP was the BPA at 5......pay attention.

He wasnt necessarly BPA but rather not a reach (like Juolevi was) but I guess you wont admit that. Its funny that one poster (not you) caused all this BS because he said we only have Pettersson because Benning doesnt do BPA - which was one of the more idiotic statements here lately.
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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Wasn't he going through a divorce? Even if not, I don't equate polyamory with perversion necessarily. Or even golddiggery per se. As long as all parties are aware of what is happening.

We're focusing on the wrong part of what I said though. That was what happened in LA with the Lakers not too long ago.

With Aquilini as our owner I know he will spend money to help give us the best chance of winning. I just wish he would spend money on a good GM
 
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Peter10

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Wasn't he going through a divorce? Even if not, I don't equate polyamory with perversion necessarily. Or even golddiggery per se. As long as all parties are aware of what is happening.

We're focusing on the wrong part of what I said though. That was what happened in LA with the Lakers not too long ago.

Thats how he started his twitter account basically. One of his first tweets (if not the first) was releasing some statement / detail on his divorce.
 
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Cogburn

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With Aquilini as our owner I know he will spend money to help give us the best chance of winning. I just wish he would spend money on a good GM

Every dollar he pisses away on incompetent Weisbrods or Bennings or Newell Browns are dollars he could be using towards someone better.

A dump truck full of money to Quenneville as a coach.

Talks with someone other than someone that has rebuffed us twice.

No having every single guy that has played for this organization guaranteed a spot in management or coaching or scouting.

Freely spending money is fine but hiring anyone that has ever watched a Canucks game without vetting them and then not holding them accountable is how we get another "Old Boys Club" or "Country Club Atmosphere". Right now that is being cultured very very very well.
 
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F A N

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Anyone who says give him one more year is saying they are not sure he can do the job and needs to be put on a very short leash.

The problem with that thinking is that this summer with the cap space and the holes they need to start filling you can’t screw it up. If you do you are screwed for several years. If you are putting the current guy on a short leash because you don’t trust him long term then he’s the wrong guy to be in charge this summer. Full stop.

Not really. Not sure why it always have to be so black and white. As far as I'm concerned, you should always be looking to upgrade the team. If there's a guy out there you think is an upgrade over Benning then ownership should look into upgrading. How many GMs or GM candidates out there would you trust to run your team indefinitely? Yzerman? Poile? I bet the list is small. If you ask Flames fans last summer, most had Treliving on a very short leash as well.

I don't see why it is so problematic to be okay with Benning getting another year and having him on a very short leash. I have liked his drafts overall and think he's drafting the right type of players for today's game. I also think that the team has some solid pieces in place and is trending forward. But Benning has also been given enough time to right the ship. His job should be in jeopardy but not everyone is of the opinion that he shouldn't be kept for at least another year.
 

Addison Rae

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Brian Dunoulin was the best defender on a team that won the cup.

Guy is an absolute stud and would have been a massive upgrade over anything Jim Benning has brought it.

That being said in 2014 he wasn’t much of an asset.
 

F A N

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Aug 12, 2005
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Brian Dunoulin was the best defender on a team that won the cup.

Guy is an absolute stud and would have been a massive upgrade over anything Jim Benning has brought it.

That being said in 2014 he wasn’t much of an asset.

That's the thing. For all intents and purposes, trading Kesler to the Penguins at the deadline would have been better as Benning wouldn't have gone out and acquired Sutter for Bonino. But if anyone was expecting the Kesler trade to have moved the needle if it was Gillis moving Kesler rather than Benning, I think it's wishful thinking. Like I said, all along Gillis' price for Kesler was significant young roster player + first round pick + prospect. They had actually settled on the Penguins trade pending swapping Dumoulin/Despres for Pouliot. Whether it was ownership intervention or not, if Bob Murray is to be believed, Gillis turned down a better all futures deal from Anaheim as well.

In the long run, it was just the wrong evaluation. Dumoulin > Pouliot. Benning reportedly wanted Saad instead of Teravainen and in hindsight the Chicago deal was probably the better deal. Of course, had the Canucks drafted Pastrnak that would have been the best return period unless Anaheim's #10 overall pick was available which Bob Murray said it was only available at the deadline.
 

tantalum

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Not really. Not sure why it always have to be so black and white. As far as I'm concerned, you should always be looking to upgrade the team. If there's a guy out there you think is an upgrade over Benning then ownership should look into upgrading. How many GMs or GM candidates out there would you trust to run your team indefinitely? Yzerman? Poile? I bet the list is small. If you ask Flames fans last summer, most had Treliving on a very short leash as well.

I don't see why it is so problematic to be okay with Benning getting another year and having him on a very short leash. I have liked his drafts overall and think he's drafting the right type of players for today's game. I also think that the team has some solid pieces in place and is trending forward. But Benning has also been given enough time to right the ship. His job should be in jeopardy but not everyone is of the opinion that he shouldn't be kept for at least another year.

It is black and white. Benning is a bad GM that when given assets and cap space has already shown he doesn’t make the correct decisions. This isn’t a matter of if there is an upgrade out there. There is.

And I fail to see the trending forward. Yes there are a few nice pieces to build around but not nearly enough of them. The organizational depth is awful. Under Benning I think you will see what is happening with the Oilers...two top players and missing the playoffs.

The black and white thing is because this is an important off season. Bad contracts/UFA signings and bad deals this summer will harm the team moving forward more than any other summer. This is a similar position to Chiarelli taking over the Oilers IMO. The wrong moves were made and he has set that team back.
 
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4Twenty

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In response to other like minded posters to you who claim EP was the BPA at 5......pay attention.
Who is the best player from that draft? Pettersson? I agree, thus he was the BPA at that position.

You're confusing BPA vs consensus. And that draft had no consensus after the top 2. The Canucks knew they had 5th overall and brought Pettersson to Vancouver for an interview....they didn't do that with Vilardi or Mittelstadt. So you could already tell they thought of him as a reasonable pick at 5.

Pettersson rose like crazy all year, similar to Kotkaniemi last year.
 

4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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It is black and white. Benning is a bad GM that when given assets and cap space has already shown he doesn’t make the correct decisions. This isn’t a matter of if there is an upgrade out there. There is.

And I fail to see the trending forward. Yes there are a few nice pieces to build around but not nearly enough of them. The organizational depth is awful. Under Benning I think you will see what is happening with the Oilers...two top players and missing the playoffs.

The black and white thing is because this is an important off season. Bad contracts/UFA signings and bad deals this summer will harm the team moving forward more than any other summer. This is a similar position to Chiarelli taking over the Oilers IMO. The wrong moves were made and he has set that team back.
First season he got here, with cap space galore he spent top of the market $$ on a 35 year old goalie, offered the most $$ to a 32 year old winger after that first season, gave a 29 year old 4th liner a 4 year term at over $10m, and after having watched Sbisa be an absolute trainwreck, nearly doubled his cap hit and game him over $11m.

That people trust him to have a plan with that money and not to overpay junk is really strange to me, it's based on hope not history.

I just remember when GM's had plans. They had contingencies, the could forecast future cap issues, they generally were proactive. These guys now just react with no foresight, get caught with their pants down then complain about no depth and injuries, rinse repeat for the last 5 years.

It's time for change.
 
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MadaCanuckle

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He wasnt necessarly BPA but rather not a reach (like Juolevi was) but I guess you wont admit that. Its funny that one poster (not you) caused all this BS because he said we only have Pettersson because Benning doesnt do BPA - which was one of the more idiotic statements here lately.


Just to put context to add up to that answer, a site who is maligned by many Benning drones had this to say about Pettersson before the draft:

When both the eye test and the statistical measures are providing glowing reviews of a prospect, you’re going to want to pay attention. Nearly everything we can dig up on this player indicates that he is one of the best talents in the draft. While we’ve picked him at fifth, it wouldn’t be a bad selection even as early as third. Whichever team gets their hands on Pettersson is going to have, at worst, a very good second line centre in their future – and it’s as likely as not that he becomes a first line centre in the NHL down the road.

They put him at #5. They even said it he could be the best player on that draft. And a lot of people were also behind it and say it as much on this forum. Hate when some stupid morons try to rewrite history just to defend the moron of morons.
 

Pastor Of Muppetz

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Oct 1, 2017
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Who is the best player from that draft? Pettersson? I agree, thus he was the BPA at that position.

You're confusing BPA vs consensus. And that draft had no consensus after the top 2. The Canucks knew they had 5th overall and brought Pettersson to Vancouver for an interview....they didn't do that with Vilardi or Mittelstadt. So you could already tell they thought of him as a reasonable pick at 5.

Pettersson rose like crazy all year, similar to Kotkaniemi last year.
Again..no,

Pettersson did not rise like Kotkaniemi..EP was not the ‘consensus BPA’ pick at 5 either..Glass (who was also flown to Vancouver) and Vilardi were rated higher..

The attempts you guys go to differentiate between the OJ pick and the EP one is incredible..The scouting depts mindset was identical.

One paid instant dividends and the other didn’t.Thats the only difference...I wanted Tkachuk as well btw.
 

me2

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Jun 28, 2002
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Make my day.
Again..no,

Pettersson did not rise like Kotkaniemi..EP was not the ‘consensus BPA’ pick at 5 either..Glass (who was also flown to Vancouver) and Vilardi were rated higher..

The attempts you guys go to differentiate between the OJ pick and the EP one is incredible..The scouting depts mindset was identical.

One paid instant dividends and the other didn’t.Thats the only difference...I wanted Tkachuk as well btw.
you are just deluded. Tkachuk was consensus ahead of OJ, not just ahead of him mind you, but a whole tier ahead of him. Pettersson was taken in the the tier he was drafted in. 1-2 Hirchier/Patrick 3-4 Makar and Heiskanen, and then there was whole new tier of which Pettersson was a part of.
 
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Disappointed EP40

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Jan 13, 2015
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I call BS here. Name that agencies that had him at 5 or higher (and I dont care about what amateur arm chair gm in this sub forum was calling for back then in order to look unique)

2017 NHL Draft Rankings

It was far from an obvious choice at #5.

2017 NHL Entry Draft: Ranked #5 by Hockeyprospect.com

He was certainly mine and most advanced stat fan's choice.
 

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