TSN Radio Bob McKenzie: Everyone on Carolina except Sebastian Aho is available

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
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Toronto
also i don't understand how people feel that our defense (overall, not just the backend) and fixing it is misplaced. we're not good enough there. not as a five man unit, not on the backend.
Correct, it's not good enough. Yet. But that doesn't mean that the answer has to be found immediately, if the answer is a player and the cost to acquire that player doesn't make sense. Neither of us believe we're one player away from fixing our team's diffensive woes.

We can expect further development from Rielly, Dermott, and, I would suggest, Zaitsev, as well as huge progress from Liljegren, who I think could be ready to help out way earlier than some people think.

We can probably expect sheltered or inconsistent vets like JVR and Leo to have their minutes replaced by hungry youngsters like Johnsson and Kapanen, who have developed nicely in our excellent Marlies system.

And there are UFA options to explore as well, which could bolster our team D for nothing but a Cap hit, or trades that could possibly be made using pieces that may not be in the long-term plans (Gardiner, Leivo, any of our 2nd-string Goalies, for example) that should be looked at first, before we start trying to trade off our 2nd-line C locked up to a sweetheart deal for a few more years.

Do we need improvement? Yes, but even more importantly, we need to be smart about how we do it. In my opinion, trading core pieces right now is not the best way to do it.
 
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Mugzy97

#StandWitness
Mar 3, 2015
7,203
3,409
Halifax, NS
you trade Kadri and ___
and you get Staal and Pesce. lateral move (centre wise) and defense help.

poof.
I’d be more comfortable keeping Kadri and leaving Staal if that’s a lateral move. If Carolina is willing to move Pesce, I’d focus my efforts solely on prying him out instead of involving Kadri and Staal.
 
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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,212
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I’d be more comfortable keeping Kadri and leaving Staal if that’s a lateral move. If Carolina is willing to move Pesce, I’d focus my efforts solely on prying him out instead of involving Kadri and Staal.


not me.
Kadri is the piece that gets you Pesce without having to overpay.
Staal imo while overpaid can do the same things as Kadri, though loss of offense - but is better defensively (i just think being on a better team and more challenge, would be a boon for him). getting Staal also makes up for having to trade Kadri to get Pesce. therefore we're still okay down the middle, and then in UFA you target Riley nash or something, and poof.
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
I know we went over this but why isn't gardiner a good fit for them? They want offence? Here is a 50 point defensman.
We need defence. Here is a solid stay at home guy.
What am I missing there? Why wouldn't Carolina go for that?
'Canes fans would certainly be able to answer that better than I could - But my understanding is that they're looking more for skill up front. They already have quite a solid blueline, and, with Gardiner looking to command upwards of $6M/year to keep after this season, I don't think they'd be looking to add such a big ticket there, especially if they're a team that needs to watch their spending.
 
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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,212
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Correct, it's not good enough. Yet. But that doesn't mean that the answer has to be found immediately, if the answer is a player and the cost to acquire that player doesn't make sense. Neither of us believe we're one player away from fixing our team's diffensive woes.

We can expect further development from Rielly, Dermott, and, I would suggest, Zaitsev, as well as huge progress from Liljegren, who I think could be ready to help out way earlier than some people think.

We can probably expect sheltered or inconsistent vets like JVR and Leo to have their minutes replaced by hungry youngsters like Johnsson and Kapanen, who have developed nicely in our excellent Marlies system.

And there are UFA options to explore as well, which could bolster our team D for nothing but a Cap hit, or trades that could possibly be made using pieces that may not be in the long-term plans (Gardiner, Leivo, any of our 2nd-string Goalies, for example) that should be looked at first, before we start trying to trade off our 2nd-line C locked up to a sweetheart deal for a few more years.

Do we need improvement? Yes, but even more importantly, we need to be smart about how we do it. In my opinion, trading core pieces right now is not the best way to do it.


well for me. i'm not locked into "this core"
and it's not a shot at anyone, I just feel people get so blinded on our core - no one becomes moveable.

if the argument you play is be patient. then i don't understand why we can't move out Kadri, get Pesce, (still be patient) but have another defensive piece who fits into the age of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, (a bit older than Lilly and Dermott)? it can still be a core.

ditto if the Leafs traded Nylander or whomever
the core shouldn't locked in stone

Matthews is the root.
Marner (and/or Nylander, depending on people's preference) supports Matthews

for me everything/anyone else can be interchangeable.
for me it's not about sweetheart deals, or heart or whatever. the focus is. who makes us better. i trust Pridham if the Leafs have to take on extra money to find a way to allow Dubas to get some out or bury it (the one benefit of working with Lou for 3 years).

for me it's not even a desperate "OH MY GOD we still have to move forward, win win now now!" like i would expect the Leafs to take a step back this year (sort of like how Winnipeg did when they got Laine which is why i wouldn't trade our 1st unless we got another 1st and/or it was lotto protected). but i would be making moves to really cultivate the team i truly want - and for me, I would want a really smart, dynamic team who is strong on both sides of the puck, and I'd make moves to ensure that was possible, let them take a year to struggle/acclimatize, and then surge forward.
 

saltming

Fan Addict
Oct 6, 2015
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'Canes fans would certainly be able to answer that better than I could - But my understanding is that they're looking more for skill up front. They already have quite a solid blueline, and, with Gardiner looking to command upwards of $6M/year to keep after this season, I don't think they'd be looking to add such a big ticket there, especially if they're a team that needs to watch their spending.
Ok I get that. I was just thinking they would be adding offence period.
Gardiner would make their forwards better especially on the pp while their d around gardiner would make him look better.
Plus it would be a good old hockey trade.
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
well for me. i'm not locked into "this core"
and it's not a shot at anyone, I just feel people get so blinded on our core - no one becomes moveable.

if the argument you play is be patient. then i don't understand why we can't move out Kadri, get Pesce, (still be patient) but have another defensive piece who fits into the age of Matthews, Marner, Nylander, (a bit older than Lilly and Dermott)? it can still be a core.

ditto if the Leafs traded Nylander or whomever
the core shouldn't locked in stone

Matthews is the root.
Marner (and/or Nylander, depending on people's preference) supports Matthews

for me everything/anyone else can be interchangeable.
for me it's not about sweetheart deals, or heart or whatever. the focus is. who makes us better. i trust Pridham if the Leafs have to take on extra money to find a way to allow Dubas to get some out or bury it (the one benefit of working with Lou for 3 years).

for me it's not even a desperate "OH MY GOD we still have to move forward, win win now now!" like i would expect the Leafs to take a step back this year (sort of like how Winnipeg did when they got Laine which is why i wouldn't trade our 1st unless we got another 1st and/or it was lotto protected). but i would be making moves to really cultivate the team i truly want - and for me, I would want a really smart, dynamic team who is strong on both sides of the puck, and I'd make moves to ensure that was possible, let them take a year to struggle/acclimatize, and then surge forward.
The argument isn't just to be patient - The argument is to be patient while making smart moves. We need to improve, but I honestly believe that we don't need to give up guys like Kadri to do it. At this stage of our building process, we should identify players that we want to be part of the club moving forward and add to that group. Some people have differing opinions on the matter, but Kadri is definitely a player that I want moving forward. That's not even about getting attached to specific players, it's just about smart asset management - Explore other avenues for improving your team, like trading players you don't identify as long-term fits, or signing Free Agents, before you go trading your #2 C.

Getting Pesce would be really cool, don't get me wrong. But if the cost to get Pesce is Kadri, or Nylander, then I'd rather keep those guys and try and sign De Haan, or acquire a guy like Hjalmarsson for Carrick or something, while developing our own "Pesce" in guys like Dermott and Liljegren.

Just because another team has put up a 'For Sale' sign and we're doing some window shopping doesn't mean we need to make a transaction if it isn't the best option for us.
 
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Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,760
11,330
With JVR and Bozak leaving, how much of a "surplus" do we really have?

Our current NHL C depth is Matthews, Kadri, and then....?

We're deep on the Wing, but the "movable" talent goes from Nylander/Marner to Kapanen/Brown/Hyman/Johnsson pretty quick - On the one hand, you have guys that I would be very uncomfortable trading, and on the other hand you have guys whose value doesn't really line up with the pieces we're discussing acquiring. So while we're certainly strong up front, I don't think we're at the stage where we can be exactly carefree about losing more than we already are in JVR and Bozak.

You also have to consider the fact that taking a piece away from that area of strength makes it less of an area of strength than it was before. Combined with the fact that we have no idea what guys like Nylander, Marner, Kapanen, etc. are going to become once they're fully developed, and this kind of route to team improvement has me quite nervous.

If that hole isn't as big as the media and some fans are making it out to be (and I don't believe it is) then a much more pragmatic approach to improving the team would come from patience, UFA acquisitions, smart trades based around players that are not in your long-term plans (Gardiner, for example) and smaller depth moves that simply look to fill openings on your roster better than the players who previously occupied those positions.

We're 2 years into this core playing together, and there's still tons of development required before we see these guys playing to their full potential - The urgency people feel to make a big splash to fill this hole is, in my opinion, very misplaced.
With Nylander we have some options at C and the depth is there on the wings. Its not a carefree move, it's a calculated one.
 
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Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,760
11,330
I firmly disagree - We're only just scratching the surface of what it's like to have a strong draft and development program.
We still haven't seen a strong draft yet (in practice at least) and our picks are only going to get further from the top. We'll also see more and more talent being priced out of town which that pipeline needs to feed.
 
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IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
We still haven't seen a strong draft yet (in practice at least) and our picks are only going to get further from the top. We'll also see more and more talent being priced out of town which that pipeline needs to feed.
It's only been 3 years - Good lord, are you really so impatient? And the idea of a strong development program is that it doesn't matter as much where we're picking. Any team that wants to sustain success in this age of the NHL needs to be able to do that, and that's exactly what the people in charge of the organization are trying to accomplish. I guess I just have more faith in them at this point.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,760
11,330
It's only been 3 years - Good lord, are you really so impatient? And the idea of a strong development program is that it doesn't matter as much where we're picking. Any team that wants to sustain success in this age of the NHL needs to be able to do that, and that's exactly what the people in charge of the organization are trying to accomplish. I guess I just have more faith in them at this point.
But teams aren't generally "sustaining" to the point of creating surplus.

Its not about patience, it's about evaluation. You look at the cost, potential, risk, etc.. and make a decision. Right now we have depth upfront and needs in D. If theres a logical move, you make it rather than "hoping" it works out.
 
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Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
But teams aren't generally "sustaining" to the point of creating surplus.

Its not about patience, it's about evaluation. You look at the cost, potential, risk, etc.. and make a decision. Right now we have depth upfront and needs in D. If theres a logical move, you make it rather than "hoping" it works out.
I remember one of the articles about Dubas mentioned that he doesn't waste time when it comes to weaknesses in the roster. I don't expect him to sit around and wait for our RD situation to get better. I expect a capable stop gap, and probably another move to gain a strong long-term asset.
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
But teams aren't generally "sustaining" to the point of creating surplus.

Its not about patience, it's about evaluation. You look at the cost, potential, risk, etc.. and make a decision. Right now we have depth upfront and needs in D. If theres a logical move, you make it rather than "hoping" it works out.
I have serious doubts that the most logical move for us at this time involves trading Kadri.
 

Coachcorner

Senor Martinez
Sep 28, 2017
6,285
4,989
The argument isn't just to be patient - The argument is to be patient while making smart moves. We need to improve, but I honestly believe that we don't need to give up guys like Kadri to do it. At this stage of our building process, we should identify players that we want to be part of the club moving forward and add to that group. Some people have differing opinions on the matter, but Kadri is definitely a player that I want moving forward. That's not even about getting attached to specific players, it's just about smart asset management - Explore other avenues for improving your team, like trading players you don't identify as long-term fits, or signing Free Agents, before you go trading your #2 C.

Getting Pesce would be really cool, don't get me wrong. But if the cost to get Pesce is Kadri, or Nylander, then I'd rather keep those guys and try and sign De Haan, or acquire a guy like Hjalmarsson for Carrick or something, while developing our own "Pesce" in guys like Dermott and Liljegren.

Just because another team has put up a 'For Sale' sign and we're doing some window shopping doesn't mean we need to make a transaction if it isn't the best option for us.
We keep players for years cause they know the team, city the system and the players. Everythang. That's how you build a franchise. Kadri stays for life. Many others too. We ain't wanting Pesce that much. We have players who already can and know how to win so we don't want to teach other fool suckas who is young and stupid again. All over again. What is that?

We keep Kadri and many others and sign some cheap ol goon fool like De Haan or even some even stupider fool dork and we still win it all. We that great and have already so many great players. Others are jelious of us.
 
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ITM

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Jan 26, 2012
4,552
2,523
why do you think so?

Because the contribution/talent and value disparity is so great that it begs the question of competency.

One of the things Dubas has spoken about that he's absolutely against, is Simplicity Bias. A turgid mantra that states safe hockey is always better hockey. Donuts to dollars, that's what Chia was thinking in attempting to supplement the need on D by moving what he (somehow) believed was a reasonable asset to supplement.

Using Edmonton as an example, IF - big IF - Chia is actually floating the 2018 10 OA + Klefbom for Ristolainen, it demonstrates the caution we need to take in identifying expendable assets so as not to become constantly reactionary in the way the Oilers appear to have become.

As another poster noted in response to your Kadri for Staal + Pesce trade, Staal for Kadri isn't lateral. And certainly not with respect to fiscal responsibility as the need to sign our big three approaches. Pesce on the other hand is a worthwhile target, but only if available from expendable assets. William Nylander and his age and his numbers couldn't and shouldn't represent that particular asset if the target is Pesce anymore than Hall should have been used to acquire Larsson.

Those RHD UFAs of note that could be targeted: John Carlson and Ryan Sproul are the only names I would be interested in. Particularly Ryan Sproul given he's a former Greyhound. He's 25, has a booming shot, has done well in the AHL and appears to have found a little more comfort in the NHL with the Rangers. And he would cost us, money.

Short of an RHD signing, another approach might be to trade some of our LHD for said RHD and target LHD UFAs to supplement the offset. Players like: Thomas Hickey, Ian Cole and John Moore.

But forcing Kadri into a model involving one team alone seems a tad too spendthrift given the unknowns we have going forward. No pun intended.
 
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