TSN Radio Bob McKenzie: Everyone on Carolina except Sebastian Aho is available

HC7

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If Leafs sign Tavares, Kadri becomes even more unlikely to get traded. You need good contracts to be able afford JT91. Trading Kadri is the opposite of that.

Pesce is so overrated. You'd be able to get Hamilton for Nylander. If Carolina has 4 top pairing D like everyone says, they'd have the best D in the league and would be in the playoffs irregardless of their goaltenders because they'd get easy shots.
 

Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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why do you think so?
Oilers felt desperate to plug the hole they had on RD, and traded one of their top young forwards who was just coming off a 60+ point season for a complementary top four RD.

Are we desperate enough to plug our hole on RD by trading one of our top young forwards who is just coming off a 60+ point season for a complementary top four RD?
 

HC7

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i just feel people toss out Hall and Larsson whenever people don't like the idea of trading Nylander for anyone.
Imagine thinking trading Nylander for Pesce would end up working out for the Leafs...
 

Daisy Jane

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Oilers felt desperate to plug the hole they had on RD, and traded one of their top young forwards who was just coming off a 60+ point season for a complementary top four RD.

Are we desperate enough to plug our hole on RD by trading one of our top young forwards who is just coming off a 60+ point season for a complementary top four RD?

well actually :) i thought you'd have some breakdown or something
not just. Edmonton did it so we shouldn't do it.

(note, to everyone. i'm not saying i'd trade Pesce with Nylander, but again, i feel people tend to say "Omg Hall for Larsson, Hall for Larsson anytime Nylander gets brought up period, so i was wondering if there was actual context behind this particular case).
 

Gallagbi

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i just feel people toss out Hall and Larsson whenever people don't like the idea of trading Nylander for anyone.
We could switch it up for a Schenn/JVR comparison instead?

Nylander is a high potential offensive player in a secondary role similar to Hall. Pesce is a #2/3 D on a non-playoff team in a highly sought after RHD spot. His stats aren't fantastic, but he's "solid"
 

Nithoniniel

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well actually :) i thought you'd have some breakdown or something
not just. Edmonton did it so we shouldn't do it.

(note, to everyone. i'm not saying i'd trade Pesce with Nylander, but again, i feel people tend to say "Omg Hall for Larsson, Hall for Larsson anytime Nylander gets brought up period, so i was wondering if there was actual context behind this particular case).
It's just a very apt comparison. Hall had done more with a better opportunity previously but was coming off a very similar season to Nylander, and is much older. Pesce and Larsson are very similar in what they can provide.
 
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Daisy Jane

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We could switch it up for a Schenn/JVR comparison instead?

Nylander is a high potential offensive player in a secondary role similar to Hall. Pesce is a #2/3 D on a non-playoff team in a highly sought after RHD spot. His stats aren't fantastic, but he's "solid"

okay cool that makes sense. however, couldn't you argue that on a higher offensive team Pesce's stats could improve (especially offensively?)
 

ITM

As Long As It Takes
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i just feel people toss out Hall and Larsson whenever people don't like the idea of trading Nylander for anyone.

Really?

A neat little feature on HockeyDB, is the draft function by points. As something instructive, go to the 2014 Draft and hit the Pts column. It'll arrange players of that draft from highest to lowest by point totals. What's interesting about William Nylander is the number of points in the number of games contrasted to that of those above him. He's currently 7th in his draft class with a 135 points. Pretty fair given he was drafted 8th. However, the next three totals above WN (e.g. 138,140,140) by Victor Arvidson, Sam Reinhart and Dylan Larkin were accomplished in 35 to approximately 60 games more. That's significant. It could be when all is said and done, that William Nylander is a top 5 draft pick from his draft class.

And you simply don't trade players of that calibre for the Brett Pesce's of the league.

Edited to say: Submitted before I read your parenthetical post re: Nylander/Pesce.
 

Gallagbi

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okay cool that makes sense. however, couldn't you argue that on a higher offensive team Pesce's stats could improve (especially offensively?)
You could but he's the 4th PP option behind Rielly, Gardiner and Zaitsev, possibly lower if Carrick plays and that's where our D rack up points. He'd also be brought in to support an offensive D-man like Gardiner or Rielly, so it's not really his job or expectation.
 

Daisy Jane

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You could but he's the 4th PP option behind Rielly, Gardiner and Zaitsev, possibly lower if Carrick plays and that's where our D rack up points. He'd also be brought in to support an offensive D-man like Gardiner or Rielly, so it's not really his job or expectation.


okay that's fair. :)
 

Daisy Jane

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Really?

A neat little feature on HockeyDB, is the draft function by points. As something instructive, go to the 2014 Draft and hit the Pts column. It'll arrange players of that draft from highest to lowest by point totals. What's interesting about William Nylander is the number of points in the number of games contrasted to that of those above him. He's currently 7th in his draft class with a 135 points. Pretty fair given he was drafted 8th. However, the next three totals above WN (e.g. 138,140,140) by Victor Arvidson, Sam Reinhart and Dylan Larkin were accomplished in 35 to approximately 60 games more. That's significant. It could be when all is said and done, that William Nylander is a top 5 draft pick from his draft class.

And you simply don't trade players of that calibre for the Brett Pesce's of the league.

Edited to say: Submitted before I read your parenthetical post re: Nylander/Pesce.

yah nylander would never be something i'd move for Pesce.
Kadri would though, no hesitation in that scenario.
 

Brown Dog

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yah nylander would never be something i'd move for Pesce.
Kadri would though, no hesitation in that scenario.

giphy.gif
 

Superstar

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Jun 25, 2008
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get a good quality defenseman that can help the team.
yah. sure requires a headshake.

C'mon Daisy...Kadri is a 30 plus goal shutdown centreman on an awesome contract...they don't exactly grow on trees...who's going to score those 30 goals? We're losing JvR's 30 plus goals already. In the long run, is Pesce even better than Dermott?
 

Stephen

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uhm

Keep in my mind that Kadri has a 4 yrs left at 4.5

Kyle Turris who's a relatively decent centre has a 6 year contract kicking in next season, a contract that will pay him 6m....what were you thinking of trading out for him?

you're kind of all over the place with this

I thought he was a free agent, forgot Nashville signed him. The idea would have been to replace Kadri with a heavier cap hit but convert his cap friendliness to a good defenseman, which would be doubly relevant for a cheap team like Carolina.
 

1specter

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get a good quality defenseman that can help the team.
yah. sure requires a headshake.
It's kind of a 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' scenario. I have no doubt that if Kadri is traded it will leave a big hole down the middle. People don't understand the quality of minutes he plays along with matchups he takes on.
 

BertCorbeau

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C'mon Daisy...Kadri is a 30 plus goal shutdown centreman on an awesome contract...they don't exactly grow on trees...who's going to score those 30 goals? We're losing JvR's 30 plus goals already. In the long run, is Pesce even better than Dermott?

*cough* Tavares *cough* :naughty:

But seriously if the Leafs could have a Kadri for Pesce kind of swap and sign Tavares ... That makes things interesting.

And yes I realize that still leaves a hole in the #3C spot.
 

1specter

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*cough* Tavares *cough* :naughty:

But seriously if the Leafs could have a Kadri for Pesce kind of swap and sign Tavares ... That makes things interesting.

And yes I realize that still leaves a hole in the #3C spot.
I'd rather roll with that nightmare 1-2-3 punch down the middle and exploit teams all day with matchups
 
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ITM

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Certainly looks like we do to me. If you're waiting for more, I expect you'll be waiting forever.

I'm fine itemizing if you are.

I fail to see how waiting (and this is key) for the right asset at the right moment is "waiting forever". Besides Liljegren and Borgman, what other prospects on defense mirror the kind of depth found in clubs like Winnipeg and Nashville? Heard of Sami Niku? Just won the AHL D of the year as a rookie and I think he was the first since Justin Schultz to do so, ever, until Niku. And he belongs to Winnipeg. So does Poolman. They're going to supplement Trouba and Morrissey.

The second we get into Nashville's D prospect depth we enter truly deep waters. We simply have nothing to compare between two clubs we'd certainly like to emulate...except it seems in their proven method of drafting abundant quality and maximizing assets when/where possible. That's how they're able to justify moving Ryan Suter and Shea Weber, because they drafted Roman Josi and Ryan Ellis and Mattias Ekholm and one could build a top six better than we've ever had, just from the players they've drafted and patiently developed.

As I mentioned in another post, mitigating one deficiency only to offset another is negative gains. Centre, for example, isn't a position of strength for us. There's Matthews, there's Kadri, and if Bozak is gone...Then there's patchwork. Remove Kadri and that now glaring need cascades from a still needy defense to a glaring hole at C....And one thing is for sure, just like Florida has Trocheck and Dallas has Klingberg and Philadelphia has Couturier, we're never, NEVER, going to find a C like Kadri for his cap-hit in today's market. Not unlike Nylander, if you account for games player and points produced, Kadri's a top 5 player from his draft class. And you simply don't trade players of his calibre for the Brett Pesces of the league.

I mean...Did we all forget Jeff Finger and Mike Komisarek so quickly?
 

Daisy Jane

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It's kind of a 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' scenario. I have no doubt that if Kadri is traded it will leave a big hole down the middle. People don't understand the quality of minutes he plays along with matchups he takes on.

as i've said to get the job done, I'd trade Kadri and a mixture to get Staal and Pesce. thus, not robbing anyone to pay anyone. I know what Kadri does, and I think that Staal would be ableminded to do it better (defensively) . I just happen to think Pesce is a fine defenseman, he'd help our team and the moves are there.
 

1specter

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as i've said to get the job done, I'd trade Kadri and a mixture to get Staal and Pesce. thus, not robbing anyone to pay anyone. I know what Kadri does, and I think that Staal would be ableminded to do it better (defensively) . I just happen to think Pesce is a fine defenseman, he'd help our team and the moves are there.
I'm not sure why Carolina would give up that much for a deal where Kadri is the centrepiece, Leafs would have to add quite a bit there and even then I'm not exactly sure what Carolina is accomplishing. Staal is also older, not as good, more expensive and signed for another 5 years. This fantasy is also contingent on Tavares signing, so effectively you are paying your 3C 6M until he is 35 which is pretty nuts, and bringing in about 20M of committed cap while only offloading 4.5 in return. Thankfully, I think Dubas will manage to bring in some good pieces without the cost of Kadri.
 

Daisy Jane

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I'm fine itemizing if you are.

I fail to see how waiting (and this is key) for the right asset at the right moment is "waiting forever". Besides Liljegren and Borgman, what other prospects on defense mirror the kind of depth found in clubs like Winnipeg and Nashville? Heard of Sami Niku? Just won the AHL D of the year as a rookie and I think he was the first since Justin Schultz to do so, ever, until Niku. And he belongs to Winnipeg. So does Poolman. They're going to supplement Trouba and Morrissey.

The second we get into Nashville's D prospect depth we enter truly deep waters. We simply have nothing to compare between two clubs we'd certainly like to emulate...except it seems in their proven method of drafting abundant quality and maximizing assets when/where possible. That's how they're able to justify moving Ryan Suter and Shea Weber, because they drafted Roman Josi and Ryan Ellis and Mattias Ekholm and one could build a top six better than we've ever had, just from the players they've drafted and patiently developed.

As I mentioned in another post, mitigating one deficiency only to offset another is negative gains. Centre, for example, isn't a position of strength for us. There's Matthews, there's Kadri, and if Bozak is gone...Then there's patchwork. Remove Kadri and that now glaring need cascades from a still needy defense to a glaring hole at C....And one thing is for sure, just like Florida has Trocheck and Dallas has Klingberg and Philadelphia has Couturier, we're never, NEVER, going to find a C like Kadri for his cap-hit in today's market. Not unlike Nylander, if you account for games player and points produced, Kadri's a top 5 player from his draft class. And you simply don't trade players of his calibre for the Brett Pesces of the league.

I mean...Did we all forget Jeff Finger and Mike Komisarek so quickly?



well you can't trade Kadri's for the Doughty's of the league either, so there you are.
and what does finger and Komisarek have to do with this?
 

Daisy Jane

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I'm not sure why Carolina would give up that much for a deal where Kadri is the centrepiece, Leafs would have to add quite a bit there and even then I'm not exactly sure what Carolina is accomplishing. Staal is also older, not as good, more expensive and signed for another 5 years. This fantasy is also contingent on Tavares signing, so effectively you are paying your 3C 6M until he is 35 which is pretty nuts, and bringing in about 20M of committed cap while only offloading 4.5 in return. Thankfully, I think Dubas will manage to bring in some good pieces without the cost of Kadri.

because the owner is cheap. Honestly, I personally don't think Tavares is here. i've stated before, like i would try to go for Riley Nash or other centres via trade.


Honestly, as i've stated constantly, a lot of people here get wrapped up in cap. it's not our job to worry about the cap. that's Pridham's job. i'm pretty sure he'd be able to figure (or bury) stuff easily. as well as a mighty lot of people want to improve the team, and don't want to move pieces to actually do it.

not to mention having older players is not a bad thing, it helps makes us better.
 

cookie

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well actually :) i thought you'd have some breakdown or something
not just. Edmonton did it so we shouldn't do it.

(note, to everyone. i'm not saying i'd trade Pesce with Nylander, but again, i feel people tend to say "Omg Hall for Larsson, Hall for Larsson anytime Nylander gets brought up period, so i was wondering if there was actual context behind this particular case).
Why is it that (some of) the fans that watch Nylander the most are the worst at identifying his value? He's obviously being seasoned at wing so he can grow his game enough to play center. However, it is because of this grooming process, that Nylander's current value is cents on the dollar. The fact of the matter is that he's not looked out of place playing wing on the first line of a top offensive team, and then you add onto this the possibility of his game reaching even greater heights as a center, you have the makings of a steal of a contract. Fact is that, he's been an absolute terror when he does play center - you can ask Backstrom but also guys like Greening.

Yet we're trading this for a guy who, granted, does show potential and whose game is great (and who would be a good fit for our team) but failing to consider the fact that he may not mesh with the system or the big city environment. We eat players and with this trade being Dubas's first significant move, what do you think happens after a bad stretch? This applies to not just Pesce but also any other players being traded here.

Sometimes, the best moves are the ones not made. Nylander's circumstances are priming him for a cost-controlled 2nd contact whose value could shoot much, much higher when he hits free agency. I'd rather keep him when his contract's value is shaping up to be cents on the dollar.
 
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ITM

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well you can't trade Kadri's for the Doughty's of the league either, so there you are.
and what does finger and Komisarek have to do with this?

Because Brett Pesce and Jeff Finger and Mike Komisarek all operate in the same wheelhouse. Not to say Pesce isn't a valuable asset, but he's not worth players that define their draft classes. That's incompetency and of certain kinds of bias I can't see Dubas tripping over.

As for not trading the Kadris for the Doughtys of the league...I think there's inherently more incentive to part with Kadri for Doughty rather than Pesce, don't you? And one thing's for certain, Doughty and Pesce are pieces miles apart. Surely, the best use of a player of Kadri's calibre is to target a player of Doughty's calibre rather than Pesce's? And as if to prove the point, we have ONE Kadri. As an asset he's rare. Pesce isn't rare. It's rare to have a club announce a firesale but that doesn't mean we should also be thinking about moving a Nylander or a Kadri for a TVR either. It should be like asset for like asset that supplements glaring weakness.

This doesn't mean we restrict movement, it means we target appropriate value while planning to replace what we move. And between Doughty and Pesce, couldn't we think of many more options to inquire about rather rely on what amounts to a yard sale before the draft?

I'd prefer, that our club keep our 1st and draft the most talented player we could. Address outstanding contracts and see if there's a sign and trade to be had or simply a trade to maximize what we could...And then if the targets are Tavares and Carlson or Doughty, focus there. Centering in on Pesce and using a player far superior in value makes no sense, in any sense, independent of Pesce.

When it boils down to it, the aim is to get the most for the least. If that means a player smack dab in the middle value between Doughty and Pesce where Kadri absolutely has to be the principal in the deal...Then given me Player-X who is objectively better, over Pesce
 

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