Bo "the hero Vancouver deserves" Horvat - Part IV

[tantalum]

I think it's best to re-visit whether he should have been sent back to London at the end of the season. IIRC, Couturier really started coming into his own in the second half. One can hope...

This is pretty much what I said going into camp. For Horvat it isn't about where he is now. It is where he will be at game 82. Or more importantly where the organization thinks he will be at game 82. His gmae has developed considerably since his first game to his 25th. Let's see what happens as we get to his 60th game.

 

[DCantheDDad]

This is pretty much what I said going into camp. For Horvat it isn't about where he is now. It is where he will be at game 82. Or more importantly where the organization thinks he will be at game 82. His gmae has developed considerably since his first game to his 25th. Let's see what happens as we get to his 60th game.

Yes, I noticed at least two occasions where he tried to make a skill move to get a scoring chance. One worked and one didnt. He would not have dared to try something like that even a few games ago. It shows some confidence and a bit of swagger coming back to his game. I'm sure WD has also told him to go out and try some moves.

It is just nice to see the Canucks give the young guys like Vey and Horvat a chance to stick in the lineup, despite mistakes and slumps. No way to learn otherwise.

 

[Bankerguy]

I agree with you guys.....

He went from playing against 16, 17 year old boys who cant even grow a mustache...to playing against full grown, experience men.... that is an absolute crazy jump to make...

He has to find his groove.....he's getting more comfortable game by game. First 5 games vs his last 5 games are so different....

Lets see where he's at after 40 more games..... i bet you he'll be even more noticeable.

....after a summer of hard training he'll be even better and more confident next year too

 

[BobbyJazzLegs]

Noticed Bo was trying to be a little more creative offensively last night. I liked it a lot.

Didn't look to bad with Vey, but Dorsett was having a strange night.

 

[Alan Jackson]

I really liked the one play in the 3rd, where he was hard on the forecheck, stripped an Islander off the puck and drove to the net with a pretty decent shot. Drew a penalty, and Vey nearly popped in the rebound.

More of that, please.

 

[BoHOnino]

Noticed Bo was trying to be a little more creative offensively last night. I liked it a lot.

Didn't look to bad with Vey, but Dorsett was having a strange night.

The more Bo plays, the more confidence Bo gets, the more confidence Bo gets, the more dangles Bo will try

 

[keslerburrows]

The more Bo plays, the more confidence Bo gets, the more confidence Bo gets, the more dangles Bo will try

Waiting on a #BoDrag

 

[m9]

This is pretty much what I said going into camp. For Horvat it isn't about where he is now. It is where he will be at game 82. Or more importantly where the organization thinks he will be at game 82. His gmae has developed considerably since his first game to his 25th. Let's see what happens as we get to his 60th game.

Exactly. Ray Ferraro said something similar in the off-season, it might have been in regards to why the Canucks didn't keep Santorelli. Sure Santo might be better Game 1 over a Vey/Horvat, but who will be better in 20 games? 40 games? 60 games?

I think now that he's starting to show some limited offensive flair, try him with guys that will take him to the next level.. even for a few games.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Waiting on a #BoDrag

He nearly undressed Campbell last night. Would have been unreal.

 

[bossram]

Exactly. Ray Ferraro said something similar in the off-season, it might have been in regards to why the Canucks didn't keep Santorelli. Sure Santo might be better Game 1 over a Vey/Horvat, but who will be better in 20 games? 40 games? 60 games?

I think now that he's starting to show some limited offensive flair, try him with guys that will take him to the next level.. even for a few games.

Whether its game 1, 40, 60 or 82, Santorelli is and will be a better player than Horvat and Vey this season.

I don't hate Horvat. But he's is a replacement level (or below) NHL player right now. Keeping him was more due to PR optics or thinking he can develop better in the NHL.

 

[leftwinglockdown]

Whether its game 1, 40, 60 or 82, Santorelli is and will be a better player than Horvat and Vey this season.

I don't hate Horvat. But he's is a replacement level (or below) NHL player right now. Keeping him was more due to PR optics or thinking he can develop better in the NHL.

Agreed.

Santorelli is a supremely underrated player, the guy can carry a line by himself in this league right now and it will take a LOT (more than just 1 season) to get to that same point for Bo and Vey.

Hopefully they do it quicker than Santo did in his career.

 

[bossram]

Agreed.

Santorelli is a supremely underrated player, the guy can carry a line by himself in this league right now and it will take a LOT (more than just 1 season) to get to that same point for Bo and Vey.

Hopefully they do it quicker than Santo did in his career.

Totally agree. No reason to not bring Santorelli back. Just flat wrong if management thought Bo/Vey would be anywhere close to Santrorelli's ability this season.

 

[TheWanderer]

Had a post typed up just like this before my browser crashed.

I think a big issue is that Dorsett and Horvat get off the same page when they're in the offensive zone. Horvat would do really well to just dominate and continuously keep the puck down low. Dorsett likes to break the cycle.

Matthias would be great for Horvat, the puck wouldn't go to the net much, but they'd have it down low longer.

Totally agree about Dorsett. Dorsett is more suited to playing with guys like Richardson and Hansen. Horvat needs possession wingers - guys like maybe Burrows and Kassian. I would swap the lines up to look like this:

Sedin - Sedin - Vrbata
Higgins - Bonino - Vey
Burrows - Horvat - Kassian
Dorsett/Matthias - Richardson - Hansen
(Could move Hansen up and Vey out, putting Dorsett in Hansen's spot, as well. Rotate all the guys.)

This line-up really spreads out the defensive forwards to help out Vey and Kassian, and each line has its own strengths.

We know the first line works. The second line has looked good like that. Burrows and Kassian can play to Horvat's strengths. 4th line is an energy line where each player is preferable off the rush and using relentless forechecks.

It may seem counter-intuitive to move Horvat up at this point, but I don't think the minutes are too off. Kassian gets 2nd unit PP, Burrows 1st PP and PK, so they get more minutes than Horvat, who would be good for ~10 on this line. I also really liked Burrows with Horvat, and thought that it helped get Burrows back to his game.

That 4th line could easily eat up some minutes and cause some trouble.

 

[mathonwy]

Totally agree. No reason to not bring Santorelli back. Just flat wrong if management thought Bo/Vey would be anywhere close to Santrorelli's ability this season.

I'm not a Gillis supporter but I do give him a lot of credit for picking up Santo last year.

Considering how dominant Santo has been for the Laughs this season, I think that last season would have gone a lot differently if Santo hadn't suffered that shoulder injury.

I don't think we would made the playoffs due to Edler's horrid play and Burr's trifecta of injuries but our top 6 would have been a lot more effective as the Sedins and Kes wouldn't be playing 22+ minutes.

 

[Oddleifson]

Waiting on a #BoDrag

Sure, me, I'm waitin on a #BoDangle...

 

[vanuck]

I don't know if this has been discussed but Canucksarmy recent player grades article didn't have great reviews about Horvat.

"Vancouver's top prospect has flashed NHL skill and definitely has the potential to be an effective player in this league. Unfortunately, he just isn't ready yet. Given a neutral deployment with good wingers and weak competition, Horvat has been absolutely crushed at even strength. He may be a good player one day, but that day won't be this season."

http://canucksarmy.com/2015/1/5/canucks-army-monthly-player-grades-forwards-jan-5th-2015

Interesting, thanks for sharing. His dreadful rating in terms of possession makes me wonder if it wouldn't be better for his development to go back to junior, even if I do like seeing him playing regularly as a 19-year old. Unfortunately it seems like he's been the weak link that's dragging down Dorsett and Hansen's numbers as well.

------

On a more general note, Horvat not being ready for a 4th line replacement-level role just makes management's decision to go with him and not retain Santo as a tough-minute C for insurance even worse.

I used to really love Canucksarmy. They had some great writers 3 years ago (Jeff Angus the best). They used to be guided by advanced stats. But when their weakest writer (Dmitri Filipovic) took over it became entirely about the stats and ignored the eye test completely.

To say that Horvat is getting 'crushed' just shows that you're not watching the games. I'm sure his CORSI isn't great because his line doesn't generate tons of shots. But getting crushed is being beaten 1-on-1 by the other centre leading to disruption for all of your line mates. Crushed is giving up 5-alarm chances regularly. Instead, he basically saws off against second and third liners on other teams at 19 years old.
The stats nerds don't know how useful that is. When he's out there, the pucks spends some time in our zone and some in the opposite zone. It basically stays on the outside in each end. Which is fine, he'll learn to generate offense. But that means that our defense men aren't being taxed. It takes a lot of heat off of our top two lines. It's maybe the best 4th line I've ever seen the Canucks have in 20 years.

But the fancy stats don't tell you that. Fancy stats are useful. They really are in concert with the eye test by someone who understands the game. But taken on their own they're like any statistic. They can prove whatever narrative you want to create.

Crushed just means you're getting heavily outshot. It doesn't mean they all have to be grade A scoring chances, but the more shots you give up the more quality chances you're likely to give up in proportion anyway on average.

Funny thing is you don't even need fancy stats to tell you that line spends much more time in their own end than they do at the other end, even though Corsi agrees with the eye test.

 

[vanuck]

Totally agree. No reason to not bring Santorelli back. Just flat wrong if management thought Bo/Vey would be anywhere close to Santrorelli's ability this season.

Yeah this. Total misevaluation on their part if that was the case.

 

[bossram]

Yeah this. Total misevaluation on their part if that was the case.

There was never a chance Bo would be better than Santa this season. Having Santorelli right now would greatly improve this team. He's a better possession player than Bonino and can handle tougher minutes. AND he would be the best faceoff man on this team AND he's right-handed to boot. I was unhappy they didn't retain Santorelli in the first place and using Bo as his replacement certainly hasn't helped management's cause.

Bo drags his line down right now. That's a fact. Santa would give us another center who is of better quality than Bonino. And would bump Richardson to the 4th line. None of those things would hurt.

 

[vanuck]

There was never a chance Bo would be better than Santa this season. Having Santorelli right now would greatly improve this team. He's a better possession player than Bonino and can handle tougher minutes. AND he would be the best faceoff man on this team AND he's right-handed to boot. I was unhappy they didn't retain Santorelli in the first place and using Bo as his replacement certainly hasn't helped management's cause.

Bo drags his line down right now. That's a fact. Santa would give us another center who is of better quality than Bonino. And would bump Richardson to the 4th line. None of those things would hurt.

Exactly. Starting to question management's much-touted "eye for talent" so far.

 

[BlackAces]

Exactly. Starting to question management's much-touted "eye for talent" so far.

I dont. I highly doubt either Benning or Linden had much of a chance to see him play last year. I have no doubt that old management would've resigned him, but just because he was a Canuck last year doesn't mean much when the management that brought him in got fired. We were just another team at that point, and it's not as if a bunch of teams were fighting for his services this offseason. That being said, I do agree that we would be significantly better this year with him on the team. Would've given us a 2a/2b situation in the middle 6.

 

[leftwinglockdown]

I dont. I highly doubt either Benning or Linden had much of a chance to see him play last year. I have no doubt that old management would've resigned him, but just because he was a Canuck last year doesn't mean much when the management that brought him in got fired. We were just another team at that point, and it's not as if a bunch of teams were fighting for his services this offseason. That being said, I do agree that we would be significantly better this year with him on the team. Would've given us a 2a/2b situation in the middle 6.

That would be true if they cleaned house but it was only Gillis that got canned. Gilman and the rest of the old guard are still there. They would have been able to inform Linden and Benning about Santo.

I will say that their hands were tied a bit with Bonino being the return in the Kesler trade, Vey coming from Garrison's trade, and Bo being a Canucks draft pick. Optics-wise, there was simply no room for Santo on the roster. You'd hope that management would be brave enough to go against the grain but you can totally understand why Santo ended up the odd man out.

Just really sucks though cause we would be a much better team with him in the lineup.

 

[vanuck]

I dont. I highly doubt either Benning or Linden had much of a chance to see him play last year. I have no doubt that old management would've resigned him, but just because he was a Canuck last year doesn't mean much when the management that brought him in got fired. We were just another team at that point, and it's not as if a bunch of teams were fighting for his services this offseason. That being said, I do agree that we would be significantly better this year with him on the team. Would've given us a 2a/2b situation in the middle 6.

As the assistant GM in Boston he would've been responsible for scouting players on other teams as well. And it wouldn't just be last year either - this should be going back over several seasons' worth of evaluations, and even more so with Santo playing in the same conference as the Bruins. There's not really an excuse for him not to know who he was and what he was capable of.

Though I'm not sure what Linden has to do with it. He's been out of hockey for so long I doubt he knew much of anything about, well, anything.

 

[NoShowWilly]

As the assistant GM in Boston he would've been responsible for scouting players on other teams as well. And it wouldn't just be last year either - this should be going back over several seasons' worth of evaluations, and even more so with Santo playing in the same conference as the Bruins. There's not really an excuse for him not to know who he was and what he was capable of.

Though I'm not sure what Linden has to do with it. He's been out of hockey for so long I doubt he knew much of anything about, well, anything.

you see an oft injured player. until last season was below average defensively, is still average defensively, and had 15 points over 3 seasons.

 

[vanuck]

you see an oft injured player. until last season was below average defensively, is still average defensively, and had 15 points over 3 seasons.

Are you just going off the narrative about him when we first signed him? You don't have to look very far to see this isn't true - even here last season he did just fine centering a checking line between Higgins and Burrows.

 

[TheWanderer]

At the time, it was understandable why Santorelli was the odd man out.

Having said that... I would gladly take Santorelli and not look back.