Value of: Bo Horvat

VanOriginal

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Jun 15, 2019
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First of all literally no one thinks Gaudette is better - learn to read. The point is that Gaudette is more suited to a sheltered 2nd line role, in such a scenario the team would need to acquire a defensively competent 3rd line C.

I don't think Horvat is one of our best players and I'm not sure why so many get into hysterics at the very idea of trading him. The only untouchables on this team are Hughes and Petterson, if a trade makes the team better you make it. You can't get so emotionally attached to players that you can't handle a simple value thread.

Essentially you want to move Horvat so that Gaudette can admit-tingly play a few more minutes of the exact same role that he is playing now? a sheltered role. If Horvat had a 3rd line centre that can competently play a defensive 3rd line role then he can actually for once in his career play a more offensive C role, while still not having to be sheltered.

I think the best thing in this scenario would be to move Gaudette for a top 4 dman, and have a defensive 3rd line C that could give Horvat some freedom .. Can the Canucks get Legwand back from retirement to play that 3rd line C role, he'd fit in better than Adam, No? or they could put Sutter back into that 3rd line role.

I like Gaudette but truthfully he isn't close to the player nor leader that Horvat is. Gaudette's best suited role IS his current role, a sheltered offensive 3rd line centre. If you had him as a 2nd line sheltered centre then with the team requiring a 3rd line defensive specialist, that in itself defeats that purpose of Gaudette on the 2nd line as he wouldn't be able to handle much defensive responsibilities thus not playing that many more minutes than he is now. Horvat plays in all situations EV,PK,PP, against the other teams top players, taking on a lot of defensive responsibility, while still putting up very good offensive numbers and a very good leader to boot all at a year older than Gaudette.. what's that worth? Seth Jones. but that wont happen.

Gaudette for someone like Devon Toews, Henri Jokiharju or maybe Dennis Cholowski + would be good.. This type of move would help this team move in right direction and be better.

for the right price everyone is available including Pettersson and Hughes
 
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Canadian Canuck

Hughes4Calder
Jul 30, 2013
14,223
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Kamloops BC
That comparison really seems to have bothered you. It’s a reasonable one, Legwand was a fine and serviceable 2nd like centre FITB many years.

I reaalllly should’ve tried to limit this to non Canuck fans.
It’s really not a reasonable one at all. This whole thread is a terrible misconception. Horvat has not been a terrible Capitan. He’s been deployed with Pearson and Eriksson in a shutdown role, and despite that his point total still continues to improve year after year. There’s 20+ players I’d move ahead of Horvat. Terrible terrible idea.
 

Canuck Luck

Registered User
Jun 15, 2008
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Vancouver
In 06/07 Legwand had 63 points in 78 games played, for 0.80ppg which is higher than any year of Horvat's thus far. Horvat may reach or he may not (probably, but nothing is certain).

Horvat definitely takes it in terms of faceoffs and I'd probably say they are about equal defensively.
If you mean stylistically, sure, I don't remember enough of Legwand to compare style. However, it seems you are comparing them based on their productivity on the ice.

Lets say they are a wash defensively. Offensively there is a huge difference.

Legwand in his 15 years (not including lockout year) broke 50 points 3 times. Horvat has done it 3 times in 6 seasons.
*Legwand was on pace to have 6 in 16 years. Horvat has been on pace to have 4 in 6. So unless Horvat declines below his average starting next season, Horvat will smash Legwands projected 50 points over 82 game seasons

Legwand broke 60 points once in his 15 years. Horvat has done it once in 5. Horvat is on pace to break it again this current season.
*Legwand had 1 other season he paced for 60+. Horvat in 6 years may already match Legwands best in 16 years.

Now to really show the difference between these 2 offensively:
Legwand's FIRST 6 seasons = 220 points in 406 games. This is an average of 44.43 points over 82 games
Horvat's FIRST 6 seaons = 274 points in 445 games. This is an average of 50.49 points over 82 games.
Legwand's BEST 6 seasons = 306 points in 450 games. This is an average of 55.76 points over 82 games
Legwands CAREER = 618 points in 1136 games. This is an average of 39.77 points over 82 games
*Horvat's 6th season is incomplete. Using his projected stats for the remainder of the season, his total is 285 points in 459 games. His average becomes 50.92 points over 82 games

There is a wider gap between Legwand and Horvat's first 6 seasons than there is between Legwand's best 6 seasons vs Horvat's first 6. So unless Horvat has peaked at the ripe age of 24 and will now decline offensively, these 2 are not comparable. Horvat is a 50+ point player starting to become a 60 point player. Legwand was a 40+ point player whom at his best could get you 50+ if you gave him a star player to carry him.

Factor in linemates it only gets worse. Legwand had Radulov, Sullivan, Kariya, Dumont, Walker, Hartnell, and Erat as linemates in his career. Horvat has had Boeser for 2 years that is worth mentioning.

Horvat's 2 most common linemates this season are Eriksson and Pearson. They have a combined 58 points. Horvat has 52. Oh but Horvat plays PP1 while Pearson and Eriksson dont. Horvat has 15 power play points. Pearson has 10.

Pearson and his 1 season may be worth pointing out as a notable linemate, but he was an offensive black hole who looked to be done before he was paired with Horvat. Peason had 15 points in 61 games on his season prior to coming to Vancouver. Now he's having a career year.
To show how little value he had, he was acquired by giving up Gudbranson. Now if you think oh maybe the Pens thought they could salvage Gudbranson just like the Canucks did Pearson, you're dead wrong. If the Pens thought that, they wouldnt have cut bait on the guy 26 games into his career as a penguin for a 7th round pick and a player thats not even AHL caliber. That trade was considered a win for the Penguins btw.

Now you may say well it was a bad trade and bad trades happen. With hindsight yes. At the time of the trade however, this was considered an even trade. Canucks fans were torn as we were happy to rid ourselves of guddy, but unsure of the extra mil and bad stats Pearson had been producing. He had 8 more points in more games than gudbranson. Even now with hindsight I’m sure pens fans are happy with this trade and don’t see it as a bad trade. Reason being Pearson was buyout worthy bad and they managed to clear gudbranson’s salary and pick up a 7th while they were at it.

Now if you still insist on saying these 2 are comparable players, thats your choice. But saying that is like saying Bergeron and Datsyuk are comparable. Defensively maybe, but Datysuk was a much better offensive player
 
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Qwijibo

Registered User
Dec 1, 2014
3,372
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If you mean stylistically, sure, I don't remember enough of Legwand to compare style. However, it seems you are comparing them based on their productivity on the ice.

Lets say they are a wash defensively. Offensively there is a huge difference.

Legwand in his 15 years (not including lockout year) broke 50 points 3 times. Horvat has done it 3 times in 6 seasons.
*Legwand was on pace to have 6 in 16 years. Horvat has been on pace to have 4 in 6. So unless Horvat declines below his average starting next season, Horvat will smash Legwands projected 50 points over 82 game seasons

Legwand broke 60 points once in his 15 years. Horvat has done it once in 5. Horvat is on pace to break it again this current season.
*Legwand had 1 other season he paced for 60+. Horvat in 6 years may already match Legwands best in 16 years.

Now to really show the difference between these 2 offensively:
Legwand's FIRST 6 seasons = 220 points in 406 games. This is an average of 44.43 points over 82 games
Horvat's FIRST 6 seaons = 274 points in 445 games. This is an average of 50.49 points over 82 games.
Legwand's BEST 6 seasons = 306 points in 450 games. This is an average of 55.76 points over 82 games
Legwands CAREER = 618 points in 1136 games. This is an average of 39.77 points over 82 games
*Horvat's 6th season is incomplete. Using his projected stats for the remainder of the season, his total is 285 points in 459 games. His average becomes 50.92 points over 82 games

There is a wider gap between Legwand and Horvat's first 6 seasons than there is between Legwand's best 6 seasons vs Horvat's first 6. So unless Horvat has peaked at the ripe age of 24 and will now decline offensively, these 2 are not comparable. Horvat is a 50+ point player starting to become a 60 point player. Legwand was a 40+ point player whom at his best could get you 50+ if you gave him a star player to carry him.

Factor in linemates it only gets worse. Legwand had Radulov, Sullivan, Kariya, Dumont, Walker, Hartnell, and Erat as linemates in his career. Horvat has had Boeser for 2 years that is worth mentioning.

Horvat's 2 most common linemates this season are Eriksson and Pearson. They have a combined 58 points. Horvat has 52. Oh but Horvat plays PP1 while Pearson and Eriksson dont. Horvat has 15 power play points. Pearson has 10.

Pearson and his 1 season may be worth pointing out as a notable linemate, but he was an offensive black hole who looked to be done before he was paired with Horvat. Peason had 15 points in 61 games on his season prior to coming to Vancouver. Now he's having a career year.
To show how little value he had, he was acquired by giving up Gudbranson. Now if you think oh maybe the Pens thought they could salvage Gudbranson just like the Canucks did Pearson, you're dead wrong. If the Pens thought that, they wouldnt have cut bait on the guy 26 games into his career as a penguin for a 7th round pick and a player thats not even AHL caliber. That trade was considered a win for the Penguins btw.

Now you may say well it was a bad trade and bad trades happen. With hindsight yes. At the time of the trade however, this was considered an even trade. Canucks fans were torn as we were happy to rid ourselves of guddy, but unsure of the extra mil and bad stats Pearson had been producing. He had 8 more points in more games than gudbranson. Even now with hindsight I’m sure pens fans are happy with this trade and don’t see it as a bad trade. Reason being Pearson was buyout worthy bad and they managed to clear gudbranson’s salary and pick up a 7th while they were at it.

Now if you still insist on saying these 2 are comparable players, thats your choice. But saying that is like saying Bergeron and Datsyuk are comparable. Defensively maybe, but Datysuk was a much better offensive player
You’re comparing Horvat’s first 6 seasons to Legwand’s first 6 and ignoring one of the biggest differences. Legwand played his first 6 seasons in the NHL’s infamous “Dead Puck Era”. Scoring was way down during that time. In contrast, scoring league wide has been up substantially over the last few seasons. Especially compared to the dead puck era. Trying to compare their numbers over the first 6 seasons of each of their careers is not an accurate benchmark.

Horvat is probably the better offensive player, but there isn’t nearly as big a gap as you say there is.
 

JumpierPegasus

Registered User
Mar 3, 2011
5,657
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Abbotsford, BC
This team would be a bottom 3 team in the league with Gaudette as the 2nd line C, he is nowhere near that have you actually watched him play defense? Can you imagine trotting out Gaudette against other teams top lines like we do Horvat. My God...
 
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Diamonddog01

Diamond in the rough
Jul 18, 2007
11,038
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Vancouver
This thread has gone way off tangent. These discussions are much more appropriate in the player discussion on the Vancouver board.

Hoping some non-Vancouver fans can chime in here and suggest value.

Thanks
 

4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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Hockey overrates a letter stitched on a sweater like nothing else.

OP thinks Horvat is legwand so treat your offers accordingly.
 
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4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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First of all literally no one thinks Gaudette is better - learn to read. The point is that Gaudette is more suited to a sheltered 2nd line role, in such a scenario the team would need to acquire a defensively competent 3rd line C.

I don't think Horvat is one of our best players and I'm not sure why so many get into hysterics at the very idea of trading him. The only untouchables on this team are Hughes and Petterson, if a trade makes the team better you make it. You can't get so emotionally attached to players that you can't handle a simple value thread.
Horvat isn’t one of the Canucks best players but give me a top pair D for him lol
 

Jimbo57

Registered User
Jan 28, 2018
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OP doesnt understand that Bo is saddled with the primary shutdown role on the team and that coach doesnt care much about his offence as long as he matches up against the other teams top player. OP doesnt understand that if Gaudette was a competent shutdown centre (or even sutter) Bo would have way more o zone starts and would have a more competent winger that can produce offence than Loui freakin Eriksson.

So Bo isnt lighting it up under these circumstances (i mean 60 point pace isnt good enough when you are distracted by the likes of EP, JT Miller and QH and you cant comprehend that certain players are confined to certain roles) and OP trying to find out Bo's value since in his mind he is dispensable.
 

4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
9,987
11,831
This thread has gone way off tangent. These discussions are much more appropriate in the player discussion on the Vancouver board.

Hoping some non-Vancouver fans can chime in here and suggest value.

Thanks
Should’ve made a better OP.

let’s discuss that. How is Bo failing? Did you expect his game to completely change?

Even then. Who are you targeting. Who makes the grade to meet your demands did a low end 2C like Legwand?

Would you trade him for Cam Fowler? Would you add to get Lindholm?

who are you thinking ?
 

4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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The Canucks probably have the worst system depth at C in the entire league.

Pettersson
Horvat
Gaudette

Sutter
Beagle
Graovac

Nothing for prospects.

I get wanting to suss out the value of Horvat but it’s not like Vancouver is even trading from a position of Strength.

Good 3’s get paid like Pageau just did ie Horvat money.

Pettersson
Gaudette
Brassard/Girgensons/Larsson
Beagle

looks like the centre spine of a lottery team if you ask me.
 

Diamonddog01

Diamond in the rough
Jul 18, 2007
11,038
3,856
Vancouver
Should’ve made a better OP.

let’s discuss that. How is Bo failing? Did you expect his game to completely change?

Even then. Who are you targeting. Who makes the grade to meet your demands did a low end 2C like Legwand?

Would you trade him for Cam Fowler? Would you add to get Lindholm?

who are you thinking ?

Yes, I didn't forsee so many would get so triggered at any criticism or even the mere thought of trading Horvat. I often forget how young some of the Canuck fans are on this site and could've phrased things a bit differently for sure.

Lindholm would be an excellent, if extremely unrealistic, target. Would obviously add in such a scenario. I am not thinking of anyone in particular, just wondering what other teams fans would offer.

In regards to your second post, Miller could potentially play C or the team could always sign a player like Haula. Or again, target a 3rd line matchup / shutdown C via trade. There are many options. Simply because Green uses Horvat in that role doesn't mean that team has to use the 2nd line as a match-up line moving forward. If anything the current deployment is somewhat irregular - which is more on Benning than Green.

Also - Legwand was not a low-end 2C in my opinion btw. He was a decent 2nd C for many years, and I specifically stated Horvat is better. No idea why people are bothered by that. It's odd mix of dismissively underrating Legwand and overrating or being way too emotionally attached to Horvat.
 
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4Twenty

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Dec 18, 2018
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I hate when people take one part of a post and respond to it out of context.

Who is the Canucks top C prospect in The minors?

What about junior?

Pettersson is all world. Getting rid of Horvat and replacing his minutes with Gaudette would be foolish. Now what happens when Pettersson gets hurt. Gaudette is your 1C ahead of Sutter, Beagle, AHLer.
 

Diamonddog01

Diamond in the rough
Jul 18, 2007
11,038
3,856
Vancouver
I hate when people take one part of a post and respond to it out of context.

Who is the Canucks top C prospect in The minors?

What about junior?

Pettersson is all world. Getting rid of Horvat and replacing his minutes with Gaudette would be foolish. Now what happens when Pettersson gets hurt. Gaudette is your 1C ahead of Sutter, Beagle, AHLer.

Where did Miller go?
 

TeddyBare

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Jul 28, 2016
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Mississauga, Ontario
I hate when people take one part of a post and respond to it out of context.

Who is the Canucks top C prospect in The minors?

What about junior?

Pettersson is all world. Getting rid of Horvat and replacing his minutes with Gaudette would be foolish. Now what happens when Pettersson gets hurt. Gaudette is your 1C ahead of Sutter, Beagle, AHLer.

That still doesnt mean they have the worst depth.
take detroit, what happens if Larkin gets hurt? Filpula who is 36 becomes your 1st line center.
then luke glendening who has 9 points becomes your 2nd line center
 

Canuck Luck

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Jun 15, 2008
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Vancouver
You’re comparing Horvat’s first 6 seasons to Legwand’s first 6 and ignoring one of the biggest differences. Legwand played his first 6 seasons in the NHL’s infamous “Dead Puck Era”. Scoring was way down during that time. In contrast, scoring league wide has been up substantially over the last few seasons. Especially compared to the dead puck era. Trying to compare their numbers over the first 6 seasons of each of their careers is not an accurate benchmark.

Horvat is probably the better offensive player, but there isn’t nearly as big a gap as you say there is.
Fake news.

legwand’s first season, the 28 teams that made up the nhl at the time managed to score 6306 goals averaging out to 225-226 per team. The top scorer was jagr. He had with 95 points in 64 games. He somehow out scored everyone playing 18 less games than some players. Now pro-rate that, it equates to 124-125 points if he played the full season.

Horvat’s first year, 6719 goals for 30 teams. That’s 223-224 goals per team. The top scorer was Jamie benn with 87 points in 82 games. Even at 82 games in a supposed higher scoring era, jagr outscored him. The best ppg was Crosby. He was on pace for 89 in 82. Again even giving Crosby 82 games at his pace he can’t even beat jagr’s totals in 64 games. That’s not even to mention how vast the difference is if you pace jagr’s stats.

Need I continue because the league’s scoring for season 2 for each respective player’s career just continues to show horvat plays in a lower scoring era. I’m sure that will continue if I look further ahead too.

So if anything player point totals are lower now compared to back then.
 
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4Twenty

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That still doesnt mean they have the worst depth.
take detroit, what happens if Larkin gets hurt? Filpula who is 36 becomes your 1st line center.
then luke glendening who has 9 points becomes your 2nd line center
Detroit has decent C prospects. Van has none. I’m talking about the entire system not just the nhl.
 

Qwijibo

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Dec 1, 2014
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Fake news.

legwand’s first season, the 28 teams that made up the nhl at the time managed to score 6306 goals averaging out to 225-226 per team. The top scorer was jagr. He had with 95 points in 64 games. He somehow out scored everyone playing 18 less games than some players. Now pro-rate that, it equates to 124-125 points if he played the full season.

Horvat’s first year, 6719 goals for 30 teams. That’s 223-224 goals per team. The top scorer was Jamie benn with 87 points in 82 games. Even at 82 games in a supposed higher scoring era, jagr outscored him. The best ppg was Crosby. He was on pace for 89 in 82. Again even giving Crosby 82 games at his pace he can’t even beat jagr’s totals in 64 games. That’s not even to mention how vast the difference is if you pace jagr’s stats.

Need I continue because the league’s scoring for season 2 for each respective player’s career just continues to show horvat plays in a lower scoring era. I’m sure that will continue if I look further ahead too.

So if anything player point totals are lower now compared to back then.
Stopped reading at “fake news”

If you use a Trumpism your opinion is meaningless.
 

TeddyBare

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
4,226
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Mississauga, Ontario
Detroit has decent C prospects. Van has none. I’m talking about the entire system not just the nhl.

So what?
Those are unknowns, to say Vancouver has the worst center depth because another team has prospects makes no sense.
detroits three regular centers are 30+ years old with larkin being the exception.

still a massive reach to say they have worst center depth in the league.
 

4Twenty

Registered User
Dec 18, 2018
9,987
11,831
So what?
Those are unknowns, to say Vancouver has the worst center depth because another team has prospects makes no sense.
detroits three regular centers are 30+ years old with larkin being the exception.

still a massive reach to say they have worst center depth in the league.
One of the worst. Is that better? You’re kind of making my point by comparing them to one of the worst roster’s in NHL history that is blatantly tanking.
 

GOilers88

#DustersWinCups
Dec 24, 2016
14,430
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This thread has gone way off tangent. These discussions are much more appropriate in the player discussion on the Vancouver board.

Hoping some non-Vancouver fans can chime in here and suggest value.

Thanks
I think most non Canuck fans agree with all the Canucks fans.

Trading Horvat would be a terrible idea.
 

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