Bo Horvat vs. Nazem Kadri

[93LEAFS]

The pp doesnt even run through Horvat. He literally stands in front of the net 90% of the PP. It was Boeser + Edler on the point with Sedins on both wings and Horvat always trying to screen the goalie. Boeser and the Sedins were racking up the PP points.

Like i said, Horvat only had 29% of his total points as PP points, which is less than Kadri. Horvat was not properly used on the PP last season, nor is he a PP specialist.

37 extra seconds of pp time doesnt mean anything unless if you have the context to back it up.

Toronto had the second best PP % in the league, which means they would be on the PP less often because they would convert more often.

Kadri and Horvat were pretty damn even last season. Im not sure how you could debate otherwise.

An extra 37 seconds a game is basically an extra 23% a game. That absolutely matters. It is basically an extra PP shift a game. That adds up if you extrapolate to 82 games.

 

[Icebreakers]

An extra 37 seconds a game is basically an extra 23% a game. That absolutely matters. It is basically an extra PP shift a game. That adds up if you extrapolate to 82 games.

Without the context of the situation, you cannot prove that it matters as much as you think it matters.

It could just mean that hes on the powerplay more because they arent scoring at a similar pace on the powerplay.

BUT anyways, your point still makes no sense to me because Kadri's %PP points of his point total is GREATER than Horvats %PP points. You are literally making a point to prove nothing.

Kadri had 19/55 of his total points on the PP (34%)
Horvat had 13/44 of his total points on the pp (29%)

So what you are saying to me is, if Kadri had more power play time, that total would increase even more. So what would it be? 45%? 50%?

We are purely arguing for PP time here and what it would do to increase their PP point totals. All you are saying to me is that Kadri is a better PP player, which I will concede that point to you.

 

[93LEAFS]

Without the context of the situation, you cannot prove that it matters as much as you think it matters.

It could just mean that hes on the powerplay more because they arent scoring at a similar pace on the powerplay.

BUT anyways, your point still makes no sense to me because Kadri's %PP points of his point total is GREATER than Horvats %PP points. You are literally making a point to prove nothing.

Kadri had 19/55 of his total points on the PP (34%)
Horvat had 13/44 of his total points on the pp (29%)

So what you are saying to me is, if Kadri had more power play time, that total would increase even more. So what would it be? 45%? 50%?

We are purely arguing for PP time here and what it would do to increase their PP point totals. All you are saying to me is that Kadri is a better PP player, which I will concede that point to you.

My point is if you are examing by statistical numbers, it needs to be factored in, that Kadri would likely produce more with more PP time.

 

[snipes]

Kadri is better right now

 

[Icebreakers]

My point is if you are examing by statistical numbers, it needs to be factored in, that Kadri would likely produce more with more PP time.

Okay, Kadri is a better power play player. He would have obviously produced more with more PP time , thats obvious, but we dont know by how much.

From the looks of it, Kadri got pretty prime PP minutes too. Im not sure if its realistic, or possible to give him more PP time (without obviously bumping Matthews). So no one on the leafs even came close to Horvat in PP time. Its pretty obvious that Horvat did not benefit from the extra PP time since he was not put in the position to produce. If you gave Boeser more minutes, his power play points would go up at a higher % than of Horvats because the PP runs through him.

Even though Kadri is 6th in PP time, he is only 4 seconds behind Matthews, and 7 seconds behind Marner and 12 seconds behind the PP time leader in JVR.

Even when we consider even strength minutes, they had similar usages, 15:05 vs 14:40.

Both 10th on the team in even strength ice time, and second on the team for forwards (obviously Matthews getting more).

All of this aside, do you still not agree with me that Horvat and Kadri were in the same tier of player and both sides could be argued for? Because thats what im arguing for.

 

[93LEAFS]

Okay, Kadri is a better power play player. He would have obviously produced more with more PP time , thats obvious, but we dont know by how much.

From the looks of it, Kadri got pretty prime PP minutes too. Im not sure if its realistic, or possible to give him more PP time (without obviously bumping Matthews). So no one on the leafs even came close to Horvat in PP time. Its pretty obvious that Horvat did not benefit from the extra PP time since he was not put in the position to produce. If you gave Boeser more minutes, his power play points would go up at a higher % than of Horvats because the PP runs through him.

Even though Kadri is 6th in PP time, he is only 4 seconds behind Matthews, and 7 seconds behind Marner and 12 seconds behind the PP time leader in JVR.

Even when we consider even strength minutes, they had similar usages, 15:05 vs 14:40.

Both 10th on the team in even strength ice time, and second on the team for forwards (obviously Matthews getting more).

All of this aside, do you still not agree with me that Horvat and Kadri were in the same tier of player and both sides could be argued for? Because thats what im arguing for.

I think Kadri was ahead of him last year given the difficulty of his role. Not by a significant margin but still ahead. This was actually Kadri's weakest year with underlying numbers primarily fueled by carrying around Komarov's corpse half the year.

The Leafs allocate their ice-time a bit different than most teams. We don't run a stacked top unit on the PP. Obviously, if we shifted to a stacked top unit, it would be Nylander or Kadri who would realistically get the shaft. My guess is Nylander, because Kadri is very good at playing the center of 1-3-1 PP set up as the net crasher, and left shots play well with Marner playing of slap-passes for tips or to get a shot. I have no idea what Babs will do this year. He could maintain the status quo, just putting Tavares in JVR and Bozak's spot, and maybe giving someone else a spot. Or, he can stack it with one of these two set-ups.

Tavares
Nylander-Matthews-Marner
Rielly/Gardiner

or

Tavares
Matthews-Kadri-Marner
Rielly/Gardiner

If he tries to maintain the status quo, it probably ends up something like this.

Tavares
Marleau-Kadri-Marner
Rielly

???????
Matthews-?????-Nylander
Gardiner

With those question marks being someone of Brown, Leivo, Kapanen and Andreas Johnsson. Or, Babs fully embraces his love of Hyman and puts him in as the screener.

 

[Icebreakers]

I think Kadri was ahead of him last year given the difficulty of his role. Not by a significant margin but still ahead. This was actually Kadri's weakest year with underlying numbers primarily fueled by carrying around Komarov's corpse half the year.

The Leafs allocate their ice-time a bit different than most teams. We don't run a stacked top unit on the PP. Obviously, if we shifted to a stacked top unit, it would be Nylander or Kadri who would realistically get the shaft. My guess is Nylander, because Kadri is very good at playing the center of 1-3-1 PP set up as the net crasher, and left shots play well with Marner playing of slap-passes for tips or to get a shot. I have no idea what Babs will do this year. He could maintain the status quo, just putting Tavares in JVR and Bozak's spot, and maybe giving someone else a spot. Or, he can stack it with one of these two set-ups.

Tavares
Nylander-Matthews-Marner
Rielly/Gardiner

or

Tavares
Matthews-Kadri-Marner
Rielly/Gardiner

If he tries to maintain the status quo, it probably ends up something like this.

Tavares
Marleau-Kadri-Marner
Rielly

???????
Matthews-?????-Nylander
Gardiner

With those question marks being someone of Brown, Leivo, Kapanen and Andreas Johnsson. Or, Babs fully embraces his love of Hyman and puts him in as the screener.

Yeah and Horvat led the team in scoring two seasons ago playing with Burrows and Baertschi for the entire season (Hansen was the third most frequent) with his most frequent linemates on the PP were Eriksson, Granlund, and Megna (21% pp points, and not once was on the PP with the Sedins) . Horvat is NOT a pp player and never will be.


I have extreme confidence that if Horvat was deployed on Toronto, he would be a 30-30 player or close to it. With PP time or not.

 

[PinkFly]

Age 21-22

Kadri: 69gms, 15:29 (B- qc), 49.2cf% (+3.8rel), 50.2xgf% (+6.3rel), 23gls, 51pts (82gms, 27gls, 61pts)
Horvat: 145gms, 18:37 (B qc), 47.6cf% (+0.1rel), 48.8xgf% (+3.4rel), 42gls, 96pts (82gms, 24gls, 54pts)



Kadri was better than Horvat at that age.

Kadri is much better now.

Good post.

Horvat seems more comparable to Bozak than Kadri.

 

[lawrence]

Saying Kadri is better then Horvat is as silly as saying Nylander is better then Tkachuk.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

all you have to do is be younger to get voted ahead of a better leaf.

And have accomplished a ton less....Kadri's last two seasons smoke the kid and the age difference is minimal.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

Saying Kadri is better then Horvat is as silly as saying Nylander is better then Tkachuk.

Silly? He's outproduced him every season but don't let that get in the way

 

[lawrence]

Silly? He's outproduced him every season but don't let that get in the way

like how Draisatl outproduces Matthews every season, but that doesn't get in the way? really hfboards, gtfo.

 

[The List Of Jericho]

like how Draisatl outproduces Matthews every season, but that doesn't get in the way? really hfboards, gtfo.

You're super right...oh wait, Matthews had more points in his rookie season than Drai combined his first two. Let's forget about that though, let's look at the PPG from last season or the fact that Drai has one more goal in 120 plus more games surely Matthews won't eclipse that haha

 

[CP4]

Insecurities are strong in this thread.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Horvat better now and in future.

 

[Knight53]

Horvat now and in the future.

 

[Binister]

Insecurities are strong in this thread.

And it's always the same guys. Oh god I wish them the best.

 

[The Kessel Run]

f***ing comical poll.

 

[Holymakinaw]

Well, I think that since Kadri has majorly outperformed Horvat for the last bunch of years(Horvat's entire career so far), and because Kadri will likely outperform him for years to come, as he is super skilled and also on a team oozing with talent....

Kadri wins this one easily.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Naz now, Bo going forward

 

[Spirit of 67]

This is Kadri.

Horvat has a chance to be better but I see no reason why he can't get to the same level.

 

[firstemperor]

Well, when you are younger and better, whats the point of voting for the other person? No logic here. You have Leaf fans voting for Horvat and admitting hes better in this thread.

The poster you are suggesting is a Leafs fan is not. It's a Canucks fan burner account.

I have extreme confidence that if Horvat was deployed on Toronto, he would be a 30-30 player or close to it. With PP time or not.

Even Matthews does not get favourable ice time, on a per game basis relative to other superstars. Let alone PP time. There's no reason to suggest Horvat would in Toronto.

Unfortunately, what you perceive to be how Horvat is deployed in Toronto will be under the pretenses of Babcock. You are thinking idealistically when it won't be the case in reality.

 

[Critical13]

I would take Kadri this year, Horvat in 2-3 years.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

****ing comical poll.

Agreed. Probably time to shut it down as the results are pretty one sided.

 

[Regal]

Kadri is better now, and we'll see going forward. Horvat is great in transition and creating high danger chances off the rush, but needs to develop his possession and cycling game more to be equally dangerous when set up in the zone, and he isn't as good defensively as Kadri.