Blues Trade Proposals Part XXXV

[Bluesnatic27]

So who is our net front presence on the power play? Steen again?

Well that depends on what kind of net-front guy you want.

 

[Dbrownss]

So who is our net front presence on the power play? Steen again?

Schenn and Schwartz can do the job, Berglund isnt a bad option either. Problem is the entire PP to begin with. Net front wont mean anything if you dont get pucks on net

 

[TheGoldenGod]

You don't need Reaves for toughness and leadership. We need our current leaders to grow some f***ing balls. Reaves is a glue guy but there are plenty of others already here. Vegas and Pittsburgh got along fine without him. He's a good player, but would be priority #20 out of 20 on fixing this team.

I have to agree with @Dbrownss that Reaves didn't protect squat while he was here. Remember Tarasenko against Colorado, Reaves didn't do sh**. Backes, after the hit by Seabrook...Reaves didn't do sh**. I like Reaves. He's a solid 4th line player, but he's not the fix for the problem with the Blues. The problems with the Blues last year went well beyond a "glue and toughness" guy. They had only 5 top 6 forwards all year. They had an abysmal power play. Many of the key guys got injured for larger stretches.

Thorburn is a glue and toughness guy that played many games for the Blues, maybe not as well as Reaves, but despite how well he did play, that didn't do anything to help this team win. You don't need a guy like Reaves or Maroon (who did fine with New Jersey stat wise, but he was not a huge help in the "intangibles" department like you are referencing.

The Blues need to stop chasing players that have been on Cup teams or the way Cup teams are built because those styles change year in and year out. Nashville was built on an exceptional defense corp, San Jose was built as a solid all around team, Pittsburgh is a predominantly offense team with average defense, Washington has turned into a well rounded team but with an elite group of forwards who play solid team defense. Las Vegas is attack, attack, attack with little thought to defense. William Karlsson said it best, he went from Tortorella (Hitch style) who concentrated on defense to Gallant (Cooper/Sullivan) who said, just go play hockey. The Blues need to concentrate on filling in 3 top 9 roles that include a top 6 C and top 6 W. They also need to concentrate on team chemistry and the PP. If they fix two of those things, they're back in the playoffs. That doesn't include a Thorburn or Reaves.

I’m aware of the issues. They all need to be addressed. How do you focus on team chemistry without addressing it head on? You can’t snap your fingers and make these guys get on the same page. They need players off the ice and in the locker room to bring them together as a unit. There are clicks in that locker room and our best player is left out of the mix as a whole. Reaves addresses one of problems at a small price. He does Thorburns job better and knows this group better. He was a big leader for them. The locker room is a mess. Their character is a mess. The inability to come back and close out is a joke. They need more voices in that room. You guys grossly overthinking it. Top 6 is obviously the bigger priority here but we could easily put that locker room back together with one or 2 cheap and simple signings on top of the skilled acquisitions.

 

[BangarangxRufio]

Maroon only works in a skilled forward group like the one that was put together above. If we don’t have those guys that he could complement, I wouldn’t want him either.

You guys completely miss the point because there’s only one way to fix this team in your head.

Check my history darling. Ive been vocal about getting multiple different players. we need TOP 6 TALENT. he is not that.

 

[TheGoldenGod]

Check my history darling. Ive been vocal about getting multiple different players. we need TOP 6 TALENT. he is not that.

I guess the Marner and OReilley acquisitions weren’t enough then

 

[BangarangxRufio]

Oh no im YUGE on getting ROR, but Steen has a NTC and wont move for the . I see him moving to the with Pauly Walnuts before going to the .Fabbri will be traded in these scenarios. Perry +27OA for Marner+Liljegren is my take on that(but i think we end up with Nylander TBH). Fabbri+Schmaltz/Walman+2019 1st is my offer for ROR then. And i would give a 2020 1st to whoever signs Maroon as a thank you for not letting him play in a Note just because he is from here. IMO he is going to be Lucic 2.0, but 4-5M instead of 6M

 

[Dbrownss]

I’m aware of the issues. They all need to be addressed. How do you focus on team chemistry without addressing it head on? You can’t snap your fingers and make these guys get on the same page. They need players off the ice and in the locker room to bring them together as a unit. There are clicks in that locker room and our best player is left out of the mix as a whole. Reaves addresses one of problems at a small price. He does Thorburns job better and knows this group better. He was a big leader for them. The locker room is a mess. Their character is a mess. The inability to come back and close out is a joke. They need more voices in that room. You guys grossly overthinking it. Top 6 is obviously the bigger priority here but we could easily put that locker room back together with one or 2 cheap and simple signings on top of the skilled acquisitions.

That's a 2 way street.

 

[EastonBlues22]

So who is our net front presence on the power play? Steen again?

If your PP success depends on a guy getting tips and deflections in front of the net, you have a bad PP.

Literally anyone can stand in front of a goalie and screen him, and you don't need a guy there constantly. In fact, you're limiting your options fairly significantly if that's essentially all a guy does/can do.

For example, Washington runs a 1-3-1 PP that has either Kuznetsov or Backstrom as their "net front guy." Kuznetsov actually spends most of his time near one of the posts instead of actually in front of the goalie, which makes him available for backdoor plays, tips from the side, and he can also back out into the corner to become another option to get the puck to the middle (often via a bang-bang play from Backstrom on the half-wall, to Kuznetsov in the corner, to Oshie for a one-timer attempt).

When Backstrom is down there, he actually does spend time screening the goalie, but from that formation Washington morphs into a Nashville-like approach where they have two good shooters on the circles in Ovechkin and Kuznetsov, a guy in the middle in Oshie to help keep plays alive and the defense honest, and Carlson running things from the point. When one of them gets a lane to the net, they fire it, and the play down low is generally much less important, though still an available option.

Being able to switch up what they're doing (on top of having good players) makes Washington dangerous, and at no time are they depending on shots from the point, or tips/deflections to generate dangerous chances. The majority of their PP shots come from below the tops of the circles, and they can threaten you in a lot of different ways. Having guys in the middle and near the net is an important part of that, but having a traditional net front guy is not.

That's not to say that traditional net front guys are irrelevant. Teams with good traditional net front guys can certainly benefit from having those (Hornqvist, Lee, etc.), but a lot of highly successful teams make do just fine without one because, at the end of the day, a traditional net front guy just isn't a critical piece to have for a good PP.

IMO, the Blues need to move away from this notion that settling for shots from the blue line is okay as long as they have guys in front for screens/tips/rebounds. There needs to be a concerted effort to generate shots from below the tops of the circles, and to develop a series of complementary threats that applies more pressure to the defense.

Edit: HERE's a link with a decent amount of recent Washington PP footage. The discussion is mostly about how they try to get the puck to Ovechkin, but watch how Washington uses their "net front guy" to create options down low.

It's fun to watch a finely tuned PP flow from one position into another, with the defenders force to respect multiple threats almost all the time, regardless of where the puck is on the ice. Even when the puck goes low to Eller at 2:48, for example, he can pass it to three different players for a quick shot, or walk it out and shoot it himself. The defense needs to be perfect to defend all those options seamlessly in the moment, and it wasn't.

 

[Dbrownss]

If your PP success depends on a guy getting tips and deflections in front of the net, you have a bad PP.

Literally anyone can stand in front of a goalie and screen him, and you don't need a guy there constantly. In fact, you're limiting your options fairly significantly if that's essentially all a guy does/can do.

For example, Washington runs a 1-3-1 PP that has either Kuznetsov or Backstrom as their "net front guy." Kuznetsov actually spends most of his time near one of the posts instead of actually in front of the goalie, which makes him available for backdoor plays, tips from the side, and he can also back out into the corner to become another option to get the puck to the middle (often via a bang-bang play from Backstrom on the half-wall, to Kuznetsov in the corner, to Oshie for a one-timer attempt).

When Backstrom is down there, he actually does spend time screening the goalie, but from that formation Washington morphs into a Nashville-like approach where they have two good shooters on the circles in Ovechkin and Kuznetsov, a guy in the middle in Oshie to help keep plays alive and the defense honest, and Carlson running things from the point. When one of them gets a lane to the net, they fire it, and the play down low is much less important.

Being able to switch up what they're doing (on top of having good players) makes Washington dangerous, and at no time are they depending on shots from the point, or tips/deflections to generate dangerous chances. The majority of their PP shots come from below the tops of the circles, and they can threaten you in a lot of different ways. Having guys in the middle and near the net is an important part of that, but having a traditional net front guy is not.

That's not to say that traditional net front guys are irrelevant. Teams with good traditional net front guys can certainly benefit from having those (Hornqvist, Lee, etc.), but a lot of highly successful teams make do just fine without one because, at the end of the day, a traditional net front guy just isn't a critical piece to have for a good PP.

IMO, the Blues need to move away from this notion that settling for shots from the blue line is okay as long as they have guys in front for screens/tips/rebounds. There needs to be a concerted effort to generate shots from below the tops of the circles, and to develop a series of complementary threats that applies more pressure to the defense.

I remember this being successful when Petro and occasionally Parayko being a shooting option from the left circle. The Blues in general seemed to have no idea what to do on the PP this season

 

[BangarangxRufio]

I remember this being successful when Petro and occasionally Parayko being a shooting option from the left circle. The Blues in general seemed to have no idea what to do on the PP this season

Any coaches that "helped" design the PP should have to stand in front of a Parayko clapper for what they did to this team last year...He would probably shoot wide or break his stick, but they would have skid marks still.

 

[Ranksu]

Oshie was/is still such a underrated player and misused in Blues.

 

[TheGoldenGod]

That's a 2 way street.

That’s fair. I guess I’m a bit more skeptical. IMO we need more than two new skilled forwards to get past the juggernauts in the West. Winning cures a lot of this but a small character signing that may seem insignificant could go a long way in the playoffs.

 

[Dbrownss]

That’s fair. I guess I’m a bit more skeptical. IMO we need more than two new skilled forwards to get past the juggernauts in the West. Winning cures a lot of this but a small character signing that may seem insignificant could go a long way in the playoffs.

I'm fine with Reaves coming back, I just dont see it as a must. I know he was a voice in the locker room, but at some point, internal guys have to step up.

Maroon though....that's not a small signing. I'll stand by he doesn't get signed for less then 4m.

 

[WeWentBlues]

What other controversial thing can I say that will generate another flurry of activity? Let's keep the hockey talk going. Haha

 

[BleedBlue14]

Schenn and Schwartz can do the job, Berglund isnt a bad option either. Problem is the entire PP to begin with. Net front wont mean anything if you dont get pucks on net

Agreed. 1 shot per powerplay, horrible zone entry, passing to 91 and standing around watching him look at everyone else. This about sums up our powerplay. We either need a one timer option for Tarasenko to pass it to, the powerplay to not be ran through 91 or a entirely different approach. Powerplay looked pretty good while it was ran through Petro and Dunn. If that was the case, sure I can see the net front presence being a viable need. Until it is though we need a RH shot on the other side who can hit the net or has a good one timer. Also wouldn't hurt for Tarasenko to work on a one-timer but seeing as how he's gonna be sidelined for a bit recovering I don't think that's a legitimate ask.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

Agreed. 1 shot per powerplay, horrible zone entry, passing to 91 and standing around watching him look at everyone else. This about sums up our powerplay. We either need a one timer option for Tarasenko to pass it to, the powerplay to not be ran through 91 or a entirely different approach. Powerplay looked pretty good while it was ran through Petro and Dunn. If that was the case, sure I can see the net front presence being a viable need. Until it is though we need a RH shot on the other side who can hit the net or has a good one timer. Also wouldn't hurt for Tarasenko to work on a one-timer but seeing as how he's gonna be sidelined for a bit recovering I don't think that's a legitimate ask.

I would also be prepared for an “adjustment period,” just like Berglund has gone through after shoulder surgery. If Tarasenko can’t work out his upper body this offseason, his wrister is going to lose some of its zip, and that is going to be tough for him to adjust to. It will be as good of a time as any to run some different plays and get some different trigger men involved

 

[BleedBlue14]

I would also be prepared for an “adjustment period,” just like Berglund has gone through after shoulder surgery. If Tarasenko can’t work out his upper body this offseason, his wrister is going to lose some of its zip, and that is going to be tough for him to adjust to. It will be as good of a time as any to run some different plays and get some different trigger men involved

Honestly that might be for the best right now. Considering how junbled of a mess he seemed to be throughout a lot of last season in terms of shooting the puck. A reset might not be the worst thing

 

[BlueDream]

Again that is just so short sided. There is so much top end talent in that lineup. Pretending like that wouldn’t be the best team we iced in 20 years.

So many intangibles you’re ignoring that I won’t go over again. Claiming Reaves doesn’t protect or bring teams together. Claiming JC wouldn’t be a good option behind Petro with a rising cap. Claiming Perron isn’t worth a low contract. 40+ player plays everywhere in all situations.

So many overstated generalities that our fan base uses to label players. We pretend like there’s only one way to build this team up to a contender. We’re so far away from the offensive talent, the compete level, and heart of those two teams in the cup final. It’s scary. By the time our kids are able to help that, our core players will have moved on. Cya

The irony here is you're talking about how much heart the guys in the Cup final have and that's why we haven't gotten there apparently. You say Reaves and Perron bring that and that's why we need to bring them back. But if that was actually the case, we would have never let them go in the first place... they did nothing here in the playoffs.

When I watch the Cup final, I don't see any difference in heart between these teams and the Blues. I see a difference in clutch goaltending, and the ability to strike quickly on offense. That's where we need to improve.

 

[TheChamber91]

I agree with our issue of lacking heart (along with other major issues such as the powerplay, inconsistent goaltending, and a lack of RHS in the Top-6). Multiple times near the end of the season I noticed that the team was in no way acting like they were fighting for a playoff spot, especially in the last game against Colorado. I saw the game against Washington near the end of the season in person, and we were just lacking the fight I was sure we'd have (we ended up losing by a couple goals I don't remember the exact score). We weren't going as hard as I've seen us go in years past. It's hard to explain, but did anyone else see this?

 

[TheGoldenGod]

The irony here is you're talking about how much heart the guys in the Cup final have and that's why we haven't gotten there apparently. You say Reaves and Perron bring that and that's why we need to bring them back. But if that was actually the case, we would have never let them go in the first place... they did nothing here in the playoffs.

When I watch the Cup final, I don't see any difference in heart between these teams and the Blues. I see a difference in clutch goaltending, and the ability to strike quickly on offense. That's where we need to improve.

Never said that about Perron. I said he’s a right handed versatile winger that will play anywhere at anytime in the game and he’s cheap. I thought of him because he fills a role this team clearly lacked last year. I said I’d consider him. Not pencil him in definitely.

We let Reaves go because a perennial cup team saw the value he brought to a winning club and paid a 1st rounder for him.

When I watch these two teams I see chemistry and resilience. Able to cope with controversy and respond. They play as a unit and have great leadership.

The west is a gauntlet. I agree we lack the goaltending and offense but it’s a bit mmore than just that IMO.

 

[TheGoldenGod]

I agree with our issue of lacking heart (along with other major issues such as the powerplay, inconsistent goaltending, and a lack of RHS in the Top-6). Multiple times near the end of the season I noticed that the team was in no way acting like they were fighting for a playoff spot, especially in the last game against Colorado. I saw the game against Washington near the end of the season in person, and we were just lacking the fight I was sure we'd have (we ended up losing by a couple goals I don't remember the exact score). We weren't going as hard as I've seen us go in years past. It's hard to explain, but did anyone else see this?

Yes

 

[Itsnotatrap]

Perron would be a fool to come here a 3rd time. We have to look elsewhere.

 

[MortiestOfMortys]

The irony here is you're talking about how much heart the guys in the Cup final have and that's why we haven't gotten there apparently. You say Reaves and Perron bring that and that's why we need to bring them back. But if that was actually the case, we would have never let them go in the first place... they did nothing here in the playoffs.

When I watch the Cup final, I don't see any difference in heart between these teams and the Blues. I see a difference in clutch goaltending, and the ability to strike quickly on offense. That's where we need to improve.

I mean, the very obvious question is why do players leave St Louis and then become clutch players? The list is frustratingly long. We build terrific players, who never quite seem to fulfill their full potential here, but then become indispensable or at least very significant to their next teams. How is it that no matter who we draft, how many coaches we cycle through, who we trade for and/or sign, they reach a new height *after* benefitting from our system. Is it actually “benefitting”? Such is life as a Blues fan, and it is a total bummer

 

[BlueDream]

I mean, the very obvious question is why do players leave St Louis and then become clutch players? The list is frustratingly long. We build terrific players, who never quite seem to fulfill their full potential here, but then become indispensable or at least very significant to their next teams. How is it that no matter who we draft, how many coaches we cycle through, who we trade for and/or sign, they reach a new height *after* benefitting from our system. Is it actually “benefitting”? Such is life as a Blues fan, and it is a total bummer

Because our team is cursed.

I have no other answer for it.

It definitely is frustrating and that’s a boat all of us are in. I guess we can only keep trying with new players until we finally break through.

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

Never said that about Perron. I said he’s a right handed versatile winger that will play anywhere at anytime in the game and he’s cheap. I thought of him because he fills a role this team clearly lacked last year. I said I’d consider him. Not pencil him in definitely.

We let Reaves go because a perennial cup team saw the value he brought to a winning club and paid a 1st rounder for him.

When I watch these two teams I see chemistry and resilience. Able to cope with controversy and respond. They play as a unit and have great leadership.

The west is a gauntlet. I agree we lack the goaltending and offense but it’s a bit mmore than just that IMO.

You keep saying this, but why would a guy coming off a 66pt season (in only 70 games to boot) sign a "cheap" contract?