Blues Trade Proposals Part XXXIV

Trade bait at TDL or off-season: Sobotka or Berglund?

  • Sobotka

  • Berglund


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MortiestOfMortys

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Jun 27, 2015
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If Stastny walks, he walks. That's a significant step back for the Blues as they attempt to address the roster concerns for next year. IMO (for reasons I've already detailed), the Blues should be doing what they can to prevent that from happening, not preemptively making it happen out of fear that it might.

I'm not getting what you mean by "Easton values." I make arguments about what I think is likely to happen, or what values are likely to be, generally based upon what's usually happened in the past and what's likely to happen in the future. It's the only way I know to have a reasonable conversation about hypothetical situations. If there's no historical context to fall back on to help us know what's reasonable, then everything goes out the window. I don't see much point in attempting to predict outliers, and I'm certainly not basing my hopes for the franchise on them.

If that's what gives you your jollies as a fan, then you do you, but don't act like I'm some sort of dictator for attempting to have a reasonable discussion.

Our historical context is losing Backes and Brouwer in FA, and then changing course and dealing Shatty at the deadline... and then making the WCF for the first time in over 15 years in the process. That’s your precedent. And we didn’t deal Shatty for somebody that was better than him (at the time) in order to do it. It was, in almost every sense, worth it to make that deal.

My issue is that I’m not at all making an “unreasonable discussion”. Dealing somebody tomorrow who would automatically be the best rental Center option by a country mile could easily return something positive for this team. You seem to be positing that it isn’t worth dealing Stas unless it’s for a clear upgrade (boxcar stats-wise) *right now*, which to me seems ridiculous at this point in a lost season. Get what you can get for something you’re going to lose anyways, and move forward ffs.
 

Bluesnatic27

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Aug 5, 2011
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Our historical context is losing Backes and Brouwer in FA, and then changing course and dealing Shatty at the deadline... and then making the WCF for the first time in over 15 years in the process. That’s your precedent. And we didn’t deal Shatty for somebody that was better than him (at the time) in order to do it. It was, in almost every sense, worth it to make that deal.

My issue is that I’m not at all making an “unreasonable discussion”. Dealing somebody tomorrow who would automatically be the best rental Center option by a country mile could easily return something positive for this team. You seem to be positing that it isn’t worth dealing Stas unless it’s for a clear upgrade (boxcar stats-wise) *right now*, which to me seems ridiculous at this point in a lost season. Get what you can get for something you’re going to lose anyways, and move forward ffs.
You got your timeline screwed up here.

The Blues made the WCF and then lost Backes, Brouwer, and Shatty. The Blues only made it to the semis after losing all three and gaining Sanford.
 
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MortiestOfMortys

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If the Blues can move Stastny at the deadline while filling that #2 center position moving forward with a younger and/or cheaper guy, I wouldn't be opposed to that even if he's not quite as good as Stastny is now. My position is that trading Stastny for futures at the deadline and then hoping to fill that roster hole later is a big and generally unnecessary risk. At the very least I view it as a bigger risk than simply trying to re-sign Stastny.

It's very easy to say that the Blues can just trade for a guy to fill the hole. In practice, it's a lot harder to pull off than it sounds.

If you disagree, that's fine. The MTL board could use some of your optimism if you ever have some free time to kill. ;)

No, in fact that’s exactly my position haha. And I hate that about these forums in general... “oh we’ll just fill out the bottom 6 in free agency and it’ll be no problem and we’ll totally get a guy that performs well and fits our team perfectly and we didn’t have to overpay for.” It’s a cop out.

My perspective is that we *shouldn’t* be doing that, but instead looking to get somebody who can alter our trajectory. If they can trend up, so can our team. Stas’s Career is only going down from here, that’s the reality of it. Losing him to FA is the worst possible option, so while we can still squeeze some juice from that asset, we should be
 
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Blueston

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No, in fact that’s exactly my position haha. And I hate that about these forums in general... “oh we’ll just fill out the bottom 6 in free agency and it’ll be no problem and we’ll totally get a guy that performs well and fits our team perfectly and we didn’t have to overpay for.” It’s a cop out.

My perspective is that we *shouldn’t* be doing that, but instead looking to get somebody who can alter our trajectory. If they can trend up, so can our team. Stas’s Career is only going down from here, that’s the reality of it. Losing him to FA is the worst possible option, so while we can still squeeze some juice from that asset, we should be
Signing him to a bad contract is worst possible option.
 

Vincenzo Arelliti

He Can't Play Center
Oct 13, 2014
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No, in fact that’s exactly my position haha. And I hate that about these forums in general... “oh we’ll just fill out the bottom 6 in free agency and it’ll be no problem and we’ll totally get a guy that performs well and fits our team perfectly and we didn’t have to overpay for.” It’s a cop out.

My perspective is that we *shouldn’t* be doing that, but instead looking to get somebody who can alter our trajectory. If they can trend up, so can our team. Stas’s Career is only going down from here, that’s the reality of it. Losing him to FA is the worst possible option, so while we can still squeeze some juice from that asset, we should be
I mean, sure. But who are those guys and what specific realistic (in your opinion) deals are there? Let's discuss those. I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing with your idea of trade older UFA for relatively lateral younger middle-6 C with potential.

Let me go out on a limb: I'm willing to trade anyone for a better version of themselves, and I'm willing to trade most anyone for someone that is close to and projects to be that.
 
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EastonBlues22

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Our historical context is losing Backes and Brouwer in FA, and then changing course and dealing Shatty at the deadline... and then making the WCF for the first time in over 15 years in the process. That’s your precedent. And we didn’t deal Shatty for somebody that was better than him (at the time) in order to do it. It was, in almost every sense, worth it to make that deal.

My issue is that I’m not at all making an “unreasonable discussion”. Dealing somebody tomorrow who would automatically be the best rental Center option by a country mile could easily return something positive for this team. You seem to be positing that it isn’t worth dealing Stas unless it’s for a clear upgrade (boxcar stats-wise) *right now*, which to me seems ridiculous at this point in a lost season. Get what you can get for something you’re going to lose anyways, and move forward ffs.
What? The Blues made the WCF with Brouwer, Backes, and Shattenkirk, not after losing them.

Dealing Shattenkirk at the deadline was forced because the Blues 100% knew they were going to lose him, and they could comfortably move him since they had Pietrangelo, Parayko, and Bortuzzo to hold down the fort on the RH side. Moving him didn't open a big roster hole that would immediately need to be filled. They let Backes walk over term, and Brouwer walk because the contract he commanded was downright stupid for a 3rd line quality player. None of those are analogous situations.

I'm saying (pretty clearly, I think) that Stastny shouldn't be moved at all because there's no reason for the Blues to preemptively create a big roster hole they subsequently would need to turn around and immediately fill to be a legitimate contender. If you can fill that hole in the trade, whether upgrade or downgrade, then that's one thing...but history tells us that you won't be getting that sort of return at the trade deadline.

My questions about upgrades were in response to another poster who said it wouldn't be that hard to improve upon Stastny this offseason if we moved on from him. I don't think that's true, so I questioned the premise.

My suggestion is that you re-sign Stastny, and then pursue whatever alternatives you wish (whether internal or external), with the intention of trading him later or simply swallowing the deal for a few years with him as your #3 center if that's what it takes. You bypass much of the risk without limiting your options moving forward all that much.

The only risk in that approach is that Stastny walks, which then puts you right where the "trade Stastny now" option puts you anyway...just without the 1st and whatever else you get for him. Basically, what I'm saying is that the 1st and stuff isn't worth the increased risk of being left hanging without a #2 center for the immediate future. For some people it might be. For me it's not. For Amstrong it's probably not, either.
 

TruBlu

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Stastny suggested that noone talked about him moving to a team that played a 60 minute game.
 

MortiestOfMortys

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I mean, sure. But who are those guys and what specific realistic (in your opinion) deals are there? Let's discuss those. I don't think you'll find anyone disagreeing with your idea of trade older UFA for relatively lateral younger middle-6 C with potential.

Let me go out on a limb: I'm willing to trade anyone for a better version of themselves, and I'm willing to trade most anyone for someone that is close to and projects to be that.

Wennberg, Lindholm, Reinhart, in that order. Each team needs veteran presence for different reasons, each player they would be sending to us wouldn’t do them much good in the playoffs beyond this season, and in the case of “non-buyers,” even adding to Stas to get to Lindholm/Reinhart (which I’m proposing as an indicator of just how willing I am to get blood from a stone), would be more than worth it in the long run.
 

Vincenzo Arelliti

He Can't Play Center
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Wennberg, Lindholm, Reinhart, in that order. Each team needs veteran presence for different reasons, each player they would be sending to us wouldn’t do them much good in the playoffs beyond this season, and in the case of “non-buyers,” even adding to Stas to get to Lindholm/Reinhart (which I’m proposing as an indicator of just how willing I am to get blood from a stone), would be more than worth it in the long run.
I don’t think it’s realistic that a rental center to any of those teams would return long-term players like those - where’s the precedence? Even Brassard who is younger didn’t return any individual assets like that. Even adding to Stastny doesn’t do much for Buffalo, Carolina, or Wennberg, since none of those teams need Stastny for this post-season badly enough to make that deal regardless of picks. If CBJ did, they probably would have just traded for Brassard - Ottawa had better pieces to add to him, and they would have definitely preferred Wennberg over what they got from Pittsburgh, even if they had to pay a bit more - and Brassard still has a year left.

If your goal is to grab those guys, I think that is best accomplished, if even possible, by using other assets to acquire them. I don’t think Stastny, or even picks that you might get from trading Stastny beforehand, are what those teams are looking for for their centers.
 

MortiestOfMortys

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I don’t think it’s realistic that a rental center to any of those teams would return long-term players like those - where’s the precedence? Even Brassard who is younger didn’t return any individual assets like that. Even adding to Stastny doesn’t do much for Buffalo, Carolina, or Wennberg, since none of those teams need Stastny for this post-season badly enough to make that deal regardless of picks. If CBJ did, they probably would have just traded for Brassard - Ottawa had better pieces to add to him, and they would have definitely preferred Wennberg over what they got from Pittsburgh, even if they had to pay a bit more - and Brassard still has a year left.

If your goal is to grab those guys, I think that is best accomplished, if even possible, by using other assets to acquire them. I don’t think Stastny, or even picks that you might get from trading Stastny beforehand, are what those teams are looking for for their centers.

Yeah well whatever team trades for Maroon tomorrow probably would have rather have had Nash, but it doesn’t mean they won’t have to pay the price for him. When you want to add and the market is thin, AND you don’t believe in the guy you’re trading, then a vet rental might seem like a good idea. Jarmo and Davidson are dumb as rocks, so anything is possible.

At any rate, any team trading for Stastny now is either hoping he helps their playoff chances or hoping that they can get out ahead of his free agency period and lock him down. If he’s really just in it for the lifestyle/paycheck, what does it matter to him if he goes to a bottom-feeder? Or if he’s going to a playoff contender instead of here, why wouldn’t he agree to that?

And for all the (few) people up in arms about the Berglund, Steen, and/or Sobotka contracts and ALSO now advocating for re-signing Stastny... come the eff on. How do you not see the irony there

Edit: it’s like rain on your wedding day
 

stl76

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Jul 2, 2015
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Screw Stastny and Tavares, I say we go after that Karlsson guy and converted him to C. Nobody would see it coming! :naughty:
 

Xerloris

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Jun 9, 2015
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I just hope that at this point we unload some stupid contracts and freeloaders for some picks. Give us cap space to try and fix this shit before next season.
 

bleedblue1223

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I wonder about Brodziak. He's someone I'd like to bring back, but I could see him returning a decent amount from a contender wanting to improve their bottom 6. His role is a very replaceable one, even if he's performed it great.
 

TruBlu

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I wonder about Brodziak. He's someone I'd like to bring back, but I could see him returning a decent amount from a contender wanting to improve their bottom 6. His role is a very replaceable one, even if he's performed it great.
He's the only UFA that I'd bring back as long as he is willing to do a one year deal. He's a lunch pail guy. He knows getting a contract is year to year and that he has to work to get it.
 
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bleedblue1223

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Jan 21, 2011
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To go into crazy land for a bit, if Army could dump Sobotka and Berglund, we could then go after Karlsson and move Petro or Parayko for a center, and have Stastny walk.
 
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