Blues Trade Proposals Part XX

[medkit]

I didn't realize showing evidence of Pietrangelo as one of the best offensive defensemen in league would be so controversial.

If he's a top 10 defenseman, it's because of his defense and playmaking. Definitely not his goal scoring. I did not realize this was a groundbreaking observation.

 

[KirkOut]

Are we talking about goals or points? I don't give two craps how many goals he scored, as long as he is creating offense. He's a defenseman. Pietrangelo isn't a great goal scorer, but he undeniably does create a lot of offense. He's not as good at scoring goals as Subban or Karlsson so we should probably trade him though

 

[2 Minute Minor]

I think the emergence of Parayko makes it possible to explore whether the team can get better by trading Pietro. But Parayko is nowhere near ready to play those difficult minutes game in and game out. I don't get theta motive for pretending Pietro has "limited offensive upside". It just makes the rest of the discussion derail.

 

[MissouriMook]

I would much rather take a chance on signing Kopitar this offseason than to trade Pietrangelo to bring in a 1C. As much as our offense runs through Shattenkirk, he is the more replaceable of those two because the defense goes through Petro. Parayko is much more likely to be able to replace Shatty's role than Petro's, especially in the short term.

 

[542365]

He misses the net all the time. Just because he hits it sometimes too doesn't change that. And 26th defenseman in the league is not incredible for someone we are valuing above elite centers. Ekblad was rookie, so yeah, I would hope so.

He hits it "sometimes"? That's different than your last post which states he "always" misses the net. So you're moving your position in the face of evidence. That's mature of you.

So he's constantly driving offense towards the opponent's goal, correct? If he misses "all the time" and hits it at a rate higher than all but 25 Dmen in the league, he's putting a lot of pucks towards the goal evidently. I'd say that would be a positive.

The changed parameter being "5v5." I don't see why special teams should be taken out when evaluating a player. But yeah, 21st is still much different than 6th.

It's pretty standard to use 5 v 5 when evaluating a player's offensive numbers. Not everyone gets PP time, but everyone gets 5 v 5 time. It shows his ability to create offense while also being concerned with defense. While on the PP, 95% of the focus is creating offense. If you want to adjust the stats to include PP time, we can do that. It's all on the source I provided. You're not going to like what you see though


Why the strawmans? All I'm saying is he's not perfect, and people are using biased statistics.

Do you know the meaning of the word strawman, because you're not using it correctly here. I'm providing evidence to show that your narrative that he misses the net "all the time" and "his shot sucks" is total ********, which it is. Just because the statistics don't support your nonsense doesn't make them biased. Dictionary.com would be a good resource to use if you're looking for the correct definitions of these words you're throwing out there.

Responses in bold. If Petro was as bad as this forum claims he is, how would he net us a 1C? Who would give up a legit 1C for a guy who "misses the net all the time"? Oh right...grass is always greener. Silly me.

 

[Thallis]

If he's a top 10 defenseman, it's because of his defense and playmaking. Definitely not his goal scoring. I did not realize this was a groundbreaking observation.

Offense is not just goal scoring. It has never been just goal scoring.

 

[medkit]

He hits it "sometimes"? That's different than your last post which states he "always" misses the net. So you're moving your position in the face of evidence. That's mature of you.

Yikes, this is just another miscategorization moving towards insults. Obviously it was hyperbole: I realize he has registered a shot on goal before in his career. By the way, your evidence was supporting my point, not disputing it. Someone puts him just outside the top-5, and I argue why that's wrong. So you respond... by posting another stat where he ranks 26th? Thanks! I guess that makes both of us who are putting that table into better context.

If Petro was as bad as this forum claims he is,

You might still be misreading my posts if you think I'm saying he's a bad player just because he's not actually the 6th best offensive D-man.

If you want to adjust the stats to include PP time, we can do that. It's all on the source I provided.

I already used that stat when making my original post, so there's nothing groundbreaking there

I can see this is all heating you up. If no one here is capable of discussing his offense in isolation, then I'll just drop it. I just don't see him as top-10 in offense and I think anyone outside of a Blues fan board would agree. Realize that I did not make the original post that everyone is quoting. I merely said the graph posted was wrong, which it was, and also he's not a goalscorer (which he's not). Not going to bother with the other inflammatory garbage.

Offense is not just goal scoring. It has never been just goal scoring.

Agreed. Didn't claim it was.

 

[The Grouch]

I can see this is all heating you up. If no one here is capable of discussing his offense in isolation, then I'll just drop it. I just don't see him as top-10 in offense and I think anyone outside of a Blues fan board would agree. Realize that I did not make the original post that everyone is quoting. I merely said the graph posted was wrong, which it was, and also he's not a goalscorer (which he's not). Not going to bother with the other inflammatory garbage.

If you're referring to the "graph" I posted, it wasn't "wrong", you just completely missed the context. You latched on to that statistic and created a tangential argument using hyperbole(something that should, and I hope continues to be met with disdain on this board). My argument was simply that the poster who claimed Pietrangelo had "very limited offensive upside" wasn't being objective. The list I posted which spans a 5+ year period shows that Pietrangelo is a very capable offensive player. Nothing more. I didn't make any indication about Pietrangelo's specific place among other offensive defensemen in the league, only that he has a place in the conversation. The "6th best offensive D-man" implication is your own false assumption.

 

[medkit]

If you're referring to the "graph" I posted, it wasn't "wrong", you just completely missed the context.

It's missing players. How is that not wrong?

 

[The Grouch]

It's missing players. How is that not wrong?

I used two sources, both of them tend to have good reputations...

Here is my primary source...
http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Here is my secondary source...
The NHL official site shows the same results with the exception of not deducting Brent Burns' time as a forward...
http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?rep...easonTo=20152016&gameType=2&aggregate=1&pos=D


Are you sure that it isn't you that is mistaken?

 

[bleedblue1223]

We are not trading Petro, he's the only one even capable of playing the minutes he plays.

 

[Ranksu]

I don't know how much affect has increased ATOI/GP 25:25 to 27:20?
His produce has fall and adjusted points aren't that good. Thou his early season has always been a bit shy like Backes.

Pietro's problem isn't he don't score or produce, problem is his pair which hold his offensive tools. His points go sky high with right pair and I bet we don't see those metdowns d-zone too. If we want everything out of Pietro split Jbo - Pietro, it will also releasing Jbo's offensive.

Speaking we should trade Pietro is nonesense.

 

[rockinghockey]

Eh.... I think they are still open to the idea of LD for Shattenkirk...but it's a straight across trade now. Which we don't do

I don't think you will find too many EDM fans that will trade LD he is just too hot it is like you guys trading Val that is how EDM fans feel about LD at this point. It has only been about 10 games but LD and Hall are tearing it up together.

 

[Ranksu]

I don't think you will find too many EDM fans that will trade LD he is just too hot it is like you guys trading Val that is how EDM fans feel about LD at this point. It has only been about 10 games but LD and Hall are tearing it up together.

There is always option to Tank one more year and take Chychrun. No need trade.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

I don't think you will find too many EDM fans that will trade LD he is just too hot it is like you guys trading Val that is how EDM fans feel about LD at this point. It has only been about 10 games but LD and Hall are tearing it up together.

I'm having trouble deciphering what you mean by Val. If this is some reference to Tarasenko, then you are completely off-base in your comparison.

I'm one of the fans that has a bigger interest in Draisaitl than Nuge, so he's the one I really want if a trade for a young centre were to happen. I acknowledge that it's completely based of potential, but his tools are deadly.

The price might be a little high right now, but later, I hope something could work.

 

[Dbrownss]

I don't think you will find too many EDM fans that will trade LD he is just too hot it is like you guys trading Val that is how EDM fans feel about LD at this point. It has only been about 10 games but LD and Hall are tearing it up together.

What better time to trade a rookie then when he's molten hot. If the opinion has shifted to keeping the hot rookie over a proven commodity, I wouldn't push the issue one bit.

 

[KirkOut]

Is Draisaitl going to be the 100+ point player that he's pacing for right now?

 

[BlueDream]

I think the emergence of Parayko makes it possible to explore whether the team can get better by trading Pietro. But Parayko is nowhere near ready to play those difficult minutes game in and game out. I don't get theta motive for pretending Pietro has "limited offensive upside". It just makes the rest of the discussion derail.

This is where I stand. I think you need to re-sign Shattenkirk and then we can explore trading one of them again in 2-3 years if we need to. Maybe by that time Parayko becomes so good that it does leave us with that option, who knows.

 

[Spektre]

Here is my attempt to clarify the comment of Pietrangelo having limited offensive ability.

When I think of Pietrangelo offensively, I'm not just comparing him to current NHL players. I'm comparing him to any defenceman that ever played.

I'll be the first one to say that defensively Pie is currently a top 10 player in the league. If he was that plus as offensive as MacInnis then I would belong in the camp of people saying that he should never be traded.

That's just not the case and he will never be close to that. That's ok, he's a great defenceman and I'm glad he's a Blue.

My point remains the Blues have one superstar in Tarasenko, and he's locked up long term.

My opinion, (that's all it is) is the Blues have almost an obligation to bring in an elite center for the long term.

Maybe the Blues thought Stastny was a true elite center. If so in my opinion they were alone in their thinking. Again, I like Stastny but he's just not an elite center.

It's also my opinion that defense is overrated. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a solid defense but it's not how I'd ever build a franchise.

Again let me reiterate this point. All of the above is my opinion. It's fine to disagree. What I don't understand is when people get so emotional over differing opinions.

None of us on here will be swaying Army one way or the other.

To me I think the league covets Pietrangelo. He's locked up long term on a good contract. The Blues biggest need is an elite center. Pietrangelo is probably our biggest trading chip.

I'd love to see a poll of the Blues fans that follow the team's every move on whether they think with a healthy roster the Blues will win the cup. Not "can" they, but "will" they.

My answer would be no. I'd put a healthy wager I'd be in the majority of opinion on that.

 

[Dbrownss]

I don't think Armstrong ever considered Stastny an Elite 1c. But the core of Stastny/Backes/Lehterä should be good enough to win. Look at Chicago.....they got it done with just Toews(not literally).

Who's available if you dangle Pietrangelo? Giroux...very slim chance. Then they are in the exact spot we are...overloaded defense with a weak center core. An elite center isn't available for Shattenkirk or a Shattenkirk package. Basically...unless you get a Seguin, you have to draft your 1c

 

[Spektre]

If the Blues have to draft an elite center are we looking at 10 years from now?

One other thought for the idea of signing free agents such as Kopitar. St. Louis isn't exactly a big incentive for free agency. This isn't some Mecca of the NHL that the top players put at the top of their list.

Barring a trade I don't see how the Blues acquire an elite center.

Going back to Giroux. If, the Flyers go into rebuild mode then they might deal him. If the Blues can lose a 1st round pick for Miller then that option + Pie should at least be mulled over

 

[Dbrownss]

If the Blues have to draft an elite center are we looking at 10 years from now?

One other thought for the idea of signing free agents such as Kopitar. St. Louis isn't exactly a big incentive for free agency. This isn't some Mecca of the NHL that the top players put at the top of their list.

Barring a trade I don't see how the Blues acquire an elite center.

Going back to Giroux. If, the Flyers go into rebuild mode then they might deal him. If the Blues can lose a 1st round pick for Miller then that option + Pie should at least be mulled over

It's odd you say that, I read about how much Stl is liked to live in.

Both Stamkos and Kopitar will be UFAs this season...can the Blues seriously pay what they will demand?

 

[Captain Creampuff]

You ever think maybe you think he misses the net so much is because he's so good at getting opportunities to even take the shots? And then add in he actually tends to finish pretty well in the SOG department every year for defensemen. I think some of you are only seeing what you want to see.

 

[EastonBlues22]

Is Draisaitl going to be the 100+ point player that he's pacing for right now?

Nope.

 

[BlueDream]

I don't think Armstrong ever considered Stastny an Elite 1c. But the core of Stastny/Backes/Lehterä should be good enough to win. Look at Chicago.....they got it done with just Toews(not literally).

Who's available if you dangle Pietrangelo? Giroux...very slim chance. Then they are in the exact spot we are...overloaded defense with a weak center core. An elite center isn't available for Shattenkirk or a Shattenkirk package. Basically...unless you get a Seguin, you have to draft your 1c

This is 100% speculation and I don't even agree with it. A Shattenkirk package is easily good enough to land a 1st line center (even potential-wise, they don't have to be one at this moment). Whether one will be available is a different story. For example it depends if Edmonton wants to trade one of their guys or not, but nobody can tell me that Shattenkirk+ isn't good enough to get it done. They won't get a Pietrangelo caliber player for anyone other than McDavid or Hall so if their fans try asking for that it's laughable and that's their own problem if they won't accept it, and their defense will continue to be bad.

Top centers don't get traded often but when they do (Thornton, Seguin), they don't return a piece better than Shattenkirk. It's easily enough, it just depends on finding a willing partner if the Blues want to go that route. But like I said, I'm souring on the idea.

If by top center you mean a player like Giroux then yeah I agree and you can disregard this post, but I don't think that's fair to limit it to that small of a sample of players because that kills any current possibility.