Blues Trade Proposals Part XX

[MortiestOfMortys]

The "top 6 or bust" theory is totally bunk. Jaskin and Pajaarvi and Welsh have all proven that good hockey players thrive wherever they're put. We might as well have Ryan Tesink called up instead of Rattie for all the production he's given us. Calling up Kristo is the only nail left to be driven in the coffin of Rattie's career with the Blues. There's a million guys out there who do great at juniors, and good at the AHL-level, and never translate it to the NHL. Thankfully, we decided to call up Welsh so Rattie doesn't have to keep embarrassing us/himself and lowering his value. Every time he steps on the NHL ice, it's more evidence for teams that want to lower the asking price.

As far as Benoit at Harrold go, I like them. Quite a bit actually. But those of you trying to count them in our long-term defensive depth plan are kidding yourselves. Show of hands: how many of you counted them in our long term plans on their signing threads? Or do I need to go back and quote you guys to remind you? You don't get to say "they're fine in the AHL but shouldn't ever see NHL ice" and count them towards our supposedly fantastic, league-leading defensive depth. Trying to suggest that our defensive depth is fine NOT because of Vanelli, but because of Harrold and Benoit, is a stretch at best. I like Abeltshauser too, but how many NHL games does he have? 0. Musil at least has 4. It's not much, but it's a start. How many of you miss Polak? Because that's what Musil could be for our team.

Look, the objective is to try to get a 1C, right? Shatty alone doesn't do that. Shatty+Rattie probably does. or is it just that people don't like Lazar and Draisaitl? Because if you're expecting Giroux, you're SOL. If you're expecting Stamkos, have fun with that dream. Malkin? Let's not walk down that road. But if we're dealing Shatty, we need not only a 1C coming back, but a NHL-experienced defenseman too. Would you prefer Schultz or Fayne from EDM? I'd love to see someone suggest something else instead of just crying about Musil. this isn't NHL16, this is the real world where you have to make gambles and take risks and let go of assets when they don't pan out.

Summary: our d-depth is not as good as people think (and isn't locked up for very much longer, either), Rattie is very expendable, and if you want a 1C then you're going to have to pay. If we're paying, might as well fix the d-depth, since the only forward depth anyone is willing to part worth isn't worth posting about

 

[KirkOut]

The "top 6 or bust" theory is totally bunk. Jaskin and Pajaarvi and Welsh have all proven that good hockey players thrive wherever they're put. We might as well have Ryan Tesink called up instead of Rattie for all the production he's given us. Calling up Kristo is the only nail left to be driven in the coffin of Rattie's career with the Blues. There's a million guys out there who do great at juniors, and good at the AHL-level, and never translate it to the NHL. Thankfully, we decided to call up Welsh so Rattie doesn't have to keep embarrassing us/himself and lowering his value. Every time he steps on the NHL ice, it's more evidence for teams that want to lower the asking price.

Well Paajarvi and Jaskin are both big bodies who are no strangers to the crash and bang role on the team. They also have some degree of skill. That's why they can play on the 2nd line or the 4th line. Rattie is not like that, he is a skill player. Putting him on the 4th line would be a really bad use of resources and would make the 4th line worse because you need a crash and bang guy. That's why Welsh was brought up. If Steen had gone down with an injury, you think they would have called up Welsh or Rattie to replace him? It's not very hard. You seem to be writing off Rattie way to quickly considering we've seen so little of him at the NHL level. What if we had written off Schwartz after his first cup of coffee?

As far as Benoit at Harrold go, I like them. Quite a bit actually. But those of you trying to count them in our long-term defensive depth plan are kidding yourselves. Show of hands: how many of you counted them in our long term plans on their signing threads? Or do I need to go back and quote you guys to remind you? You don't get to say "they're fine in the AHL but shouldn't ever see NHL ice" and count them towards our supposedly fantastic, league-leading defensive depth. Trying to suggest that our defensive depth is fine NOT because of Vanelli, but because of Harrold and Benoit, is a stretch at best. I like Abeltshauser too, but how many NHL games does he have? 0. Musil at least has 4. It's not much, but it's a start. How many of you miss Polak? Because that's what Musil could be for our team.

Obviously nobody thinks these guys like Benoit and Harrold are in our long term plans. Don't be ridiculous. But that's not the point. The point is that there are always gonna be a plethora of guys like those 2 who we can sign for free over the summer or in training camp instead of spending assets to bring in incredibly long-shot prospects. So no matter who our Harrold of the future is, he will always exist. Those guys will always be the insurance policy for injuries, while the prospects slowly get integrated in, if they can make it. So yes, our D prospect pool is just fine, in fact it's one of the best in the league. No need to waste assets acquiring scrubs like Musil. Those 4 games are pretty impressive though. Maybe if he works hard he can have as successful a career as Tyson Strachan or Steve Wagner.

Look, the objective is to try to get a 1C, right? Shatty alone doesn't do that. Shatty+Rattie probably does. or is it just that people don't like Lazar and Draisaitl? Because if you're expecting Giroux, you're SOL. If you're expecting Stamkos, have fun with that dream. Malkin? Let's not walk down that road. But if we're dealing Shatty, we need not only a 1C coming back, but a NHL-experienced defenseman too. Would you prefer Schultz or Fayne from EDM? I'd love to see someone suggest something else instead of just crying about Musil. this isn't NHL16, this is the real world where you have to make gambles and take risks and let go of assets when they don't pan out.

Last paragraph you shat all over Rattie's trade value but now he is the difference between acquiring a premier center and not. So which is it? Also I doubt anyone on here thinks Giroux/Malkin/Stamkos/whatever are serious options for us.

 

[MissouriMook]

This offseason...

To St. Louis:
Leon Draisaitl
David Musil
2nd


To Edmonton:
Kevin Shattenkirk
Ty Rattie

Substitute Gryba and a 3rd for Musil and the 2nd and you may have a deal from both sides.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

The "top 6 or bust" theory is totally bunk. Jaskin and Pajaarvi and Welsh have all proven that good hockey players thrive wherever they're put. We might as well have Ryan Tesink called up instead of Rattie for all the production he's given us. Calling up Kristo is the only nail left to be driven in the coffin of Rattie's career with the Blues. There's a million guys out there who do great at juniors, and good at the AHL-level, and never translate it to the NHL. Thankfully, we decided to call up Welsh so Rattie doesn't have to keep embarrassing us/himself and lowering his value. Every time he steps on the NHL ice, it's more evidence for teams that want to lower the asking price.

Jaskin has been thriving this season? Pajaarvi has been more productive than Rattie? Welsh is a good hockey player?

This entire paragraph is just blind hatred instead of a logical argument.

 

[Spektre]

Pietrangelo (6.5) + Berglund (3.7)+ Rattie (772.5) for Giroux (8.275)


Pietrangelo is the Blues best def no question. He's no game breaker though. He's just a top 10 def with very limited offensive upside.


The Blues organization is stocked with right handed Def: (Parayko, Bortuzo, Schmaltz, & Vannelli) Lefty def are: (Edmundson Lindbohm, & Dunn)

Schmaltz is just turned 22. He'll be looking to join the club next year.

The Blues don't have an elite center.

Tarasenko is locked up long term. How many years should the Blues waste on not having a legit elite C to compliment Tarasenko?

You have to give up something to get something. I'm not sure this gets the deal done with Giroux but I would think it has to be very close. Philly is going nowhere soon. If it takes adding a 3rd pick or something I'd throw that it in.

In the proposed deal the Blues are sending right at 11 million away while taking on 8.275. It's a net gain of 2.725 million.

This makes the Blues instantly a legit top offensive team in the league. It makes them worse defensively but they don't start giving up 7 goals a game.

Philly have given up 58 goals in 20 games.
Blues have given up 52 goals in 21 games.


Make it happen. Get a true #1 C.

Lines could be:

Schwartz Giroux, Tarasenko
Steen Stastny Fabbri
Backes Lehtera Brouwer
Ott Brodziak Jaskin

J-Bou Parayko
Gunner Shattenkirk
Edmundson (Bortuzo, Lindbohm)

I know Backes has never played at LW - can swap him & Lehtera.. whatever

That lineup is far and away more capable of scoring then the current roster. Giroux is a playoff performer to boot.

 

[Dbrownss]

Schmaltz is just turned 22. He'll be looking to join the club next year.

Have you watched Schmaltz?

 

[Spektre]

I said Schmaltz will be looking to make the squad next year. It's not a lock. At 23 though the organization will want him making that transition.

If that's the only thing you take away from the Giroux trade proposal I'm assuming you're going along with it

 

[Dbrownss]

I said Schmaltz will be looking to make the squad next year. It's not a lock. At 23 though the organization will want him making that transition.

If that's the only thing you take away from the Giroux trade proposal I'm assuming you're going along with it

We're not trading for Giroux so I won't bother. I've watched Schmaltz...and unless he takes a big jump, he's not close. I'll go out on a limb here...but if anybody could replace Pietrangelo, Parayko>Shattenkirk. I honestly don't beleive were a 1c away from a championship team.

 

[TerminatorBlue]

I think we are close, a 1c could put us over the top. I don't know if I could trade Petro though...I also don't think we can go into the playoffs with the team we have if we wanna go deep.

It would have to be a bigger trade with forwards going back the other way as they are having a hard enough time scoring goals now, take out Giroux and you pretty much take away what little offense they have now.

 

[The Grouch]

He's no game breaker though. He's just a top 10 def with very limited offensive upside.

Hmm... Very limited offensive upside?


Defensemen Scoring 2010-11 through 2015-16:

Player|Points|Rank
Erik Karlsson|298|1
Keith Yandle|247|2
Dustin Byfuglien|245|3
PK Subban|242|4
Shea Weber|236|5
Alex Pietrangelo|224|6

Your expectations must be extraordinarily high.

 

[medkit]

Hmm... Very limited offensive upside?


Defensemen Scoring 2010-11 through 2015-16:

Player|Points|Rank
Erik Karlsson|298|1
Keith Yandle|247|2
Dustin Byfuglien|245|3
PK Subban|242|4
Shea Weber|236|5
Alex Pietrangelo|224|6

Your expectations must be extraordinarily high.

This is a bad list. Byfuglien is on there even though he spent time at forward.. but Burns (236) is not? Who else was left off here? Looks like Letang should be on there (248) even with all of his injuries. Keith has 1 less point unless you count his 52 (40 more than Alex) playoff points, which I don't know why you would write that off. Suter is 7 behind, but ahead when you count playoffs. Even Doughty is close when you consider that. Also discounts all of the people (numerous) who have broken out just in the last 4 or less years.

Besides, I'd rather see points per game, which Pietrangelo ranks much farther down on behind Gio, Shattenkirk, Kieth, Yandle, Letang, Hedman, Klingberg, this whole list, and maybe 10 others too. If we're listing out better offensive D-men then it's a much longer list than 5 people. If we're looking at points per 60 last season, Pietrangelo was 35th.

It boils down to the fact that while Pietrangelo is a good playmaker, he can't score a big goal on his own. Or at all really. His shot sucks. He gets set up in the slot and it's always juuuuust a bit high and wide. We try point shots and they all go juuuust a bit high and wide. Even last night a detroit d-man very obviously slid in front of the crease and Pietrangelo paused and flipped it right at his chin despite having all the time and space in the world. He's not the messiah, he has flaws in his game just like everyone else.

 

[medkit]

Pietrangelo (6.5) + Berglund (3.7)+ Rattie (772.5) for Giroux (8.275)

Can't see Philly ever trading Giroux. No one trades their best player. I'm guessing if you try it on the Philly board you'll come back covered in Cheesesteaks.

 

[Dbrownss]

Can't see Philly ever trading Giroux. No one trades their best player. I'm guessing if you try it on the Philly board you'll come back covered in Cheesesteaks.

I don't think they'd hate it...but it's the quentisential robbing Peter to pay Paul. They have no 1c or even a prospect that projects there. If they had the 1st overall...maybe you could get them interested. There is still that mega trade that we never got a name out of. Oshie was a no brainer...Shattenkirk made sense to look at trading. JR specifically said it involved names people didn't expect. Either way...probably 1% chance this happens.



What are people's thoughts on Vrbata?

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

Why are we going to waste Vladdy's 8+ years as a Blue without a true number one center?


One of Petro or Shatty needs to be traded in the next year or so, and we absolutely need to get a top center out of it. With the emergence of Parayko it makes them expendable. If Army lets Shatty walk or can't get a center in exchange, then he needs to be fired IMO.

 

[Dbrownss]

Ballsy move.......do people honestly feel Parayko is up to the challenge of top pairing minutes night in...night out?

 

[Vladdy the Impaler]

Ballsy move.......do people honestly feel Parayko is up to the challenge of top pairing minutes night in...night out?

Not now, but he will be. Better to be a true contender in a couple years than to blow it this year or next and let our top D man walk without acquiring a number one center.

 

[Ranksu]

This is a bad list. Byfuglien is on there even though he spent time at forward.. but Burns (236) is not? Who else was left off here? Looks like Letang should be on there (248) even with all of his injuries. Keith has 1 less point unless you count his 52 (40 more than Alex) playoff points, which I don't know why you would write that off. Suter is 7 behind, but ahead when you count playoffs. Even Doughty is close when you consider that. Also discounts all of the people (numerous) who have broken out just in the last 4 or less years.

Besides, I'd rather see points per game, which Pietrangelo ranks much farther down on behind Gio, Shattenkirk, Kieth, Yandle, Letang, Hedman, Klingberg, this whole list, and maybe 10 others too. If we're listing out better offensive D-men then it's a much longer list than 5 people. If we're looking at points per 60 last season, Pietrangelo was 35th.

It boils down to the fact that while Pietrangelo is a good playmaker, he can't score a big goal on his own. Or at all really. His shot sucks. He gets set up in the slot and it's always juuuuust a bit high and wide. We try point shots and they all go juuuust a bit high and wide. Even last night a detroit d-man very obviously slid in front of the crease and Pietrangelo paused and flipped it right at his chin despite having all the time and space in the world. He's not the messiah, he has flaws in his game just like everyone else.

Good post.

Bolded: I think Pietro has tools to dangle on blueline and find open shooting section, but he don't challenge 'cus its coached thing, play safe. If Pietro had pair who would be more stay-at-home type and safe we would get more out of Pietro's offensive. Pietro start to look like Jbo.

I don't know do we have that kind of player. Lindbohm was that guy last season when he played up, but coaching stuff didn't give him change while he was good. Reports tells now he's only making bad plays in AHL like what we heard also last season and still he was our best dmen last season on d-zone, front of net and minimize errors.

 

[Captain Creampuff]

Fourth in the NHL with two 1st liners out? We must trade our #1D!!!!

 

[rockinghockey]

This offseason...

To St. Louis:
Leon Draisaitl
David Musil
2nd


To Edmonton:
Kevin Shattenkirk
Ty Rattie

Came here to ask when is Schwartz expected back
Do not but that offer up for LD as EDM fans will roast you. Hall and LD are rocking together and Shatty only has 2 yrs then a ufa

 

[Dbrownss]

Eh.... I think they are still open to the idea of LD for Shattenkirk...but it's a straight across trade now. Which we don't do

 

[542365]

This is a bad list. Byfuglien is on there even though he spent time at forward.. but Burns (236) is not? Who else was left off here? Looks like Letang should be on there (248) even with all of his injuries. Keith has 1 less point unless you count his 52 (40 more than Alex) playoff points, which I don't know why you would write that off. Suter is 7 behind, but ahead when you count playoffs. Even Doughty is close when you consider that. Also discounts all of the people (numerous) who have broken out just in the last 4 or less years.

Besides, I'd rather see points per game, which Pietrangelo ranks much farther down on behind Gio, Shattenkirk, Kieth, Yandle, Letang, Hedman, Klingberg, this whole list, and maybe 10 others too. If we're listing out better offensive D-men then it's a much longer list than 5 people. If we're looking at points per 60 last season, Pietrangelo was 35th.

It boils down to the fact that while Pietrangelo is a good playmaker, he can't score a big goal on his own. Or at all really. His shot sucks. He gets set up in the slot and it's always juuuuust a bit high and wide. We try point shots and they all go juuuust a bit high and wide. Even last night a detroit d-man very obviously slid in front of the crease and Pietrangelo paused and flipped it right at his chin despite having all the time and space in the world. He's not the messiah, he has flaws in his game just like everyone else.

Last season, Pietrangelo was tied(with Shattenkirk) for 21st in 5 v 5 Points/60 minutes. Ahead of Yandle, Keith, Letang, Hamilton, Weber, Byfuglien, Hamanic, Vatanen etc.

Shots/60 he was 26th ahead of Josi, Doughty, Hedman, Ekblad, Hamonic etc.(Doesn't really support your high and wide narrative).

He was also 10th in SOG among Dmen.

SOURCE: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...id=0&type=individual&sort=ishots&sortdir=DESC

If your biggest complaint about a Dman is that "he can't score a big goal on his own" then you're really looking hard for something to complain about.

This is while playing some of the toughest minutes in the NHL. Petro is not going anywhere, nor should he.

 

[Oberyn]

Haven't been a fan of Pietrangelo's game lately but trading him would be a mistake, at least right now. I'd rather see if he can regain his old form.

 

[The Grouch]

I didn't realize showing evidence of Pietrangelo as one of the best offensive defensemen in league would be so controversial. He's clearly in the top tier, which is all that list was meant to show. If you think Alex Pietrangelo has "very limited offensive upside", then you're not paying adequate attention. Some Blues fans will use any excuse they can grasp to cut down Pietrangelo, why... because he doesn't score a lot of goals relative to your expectations? Pietrangelo's shooting percentage over his career is strong(over 5%). MattyMo's post does an excellent job of showing that Pietrangelo's shot isn't as deficient as many would like to believe.

 

[BlueDream]

The more I watch Shattenkirk, the more I'm leaning towards the fact that we can't move him. He drives our offense so much, I think he might be even more important than a guy like Schwartz. I'm not going to debate that because it's a minor difference so don't bother, but he makes a noticeable impact. Someone is just going to have to play the left side, and Stastny is going to have to be our guy going forward. If our centers will aren't good enough, then they should upgrade Lehtera.

 

[medkit]

Shots/60 he was 26th ahead of Josi, Doughty, Hedman, Ekblad, Hamonic etc.(Doesn't really support your high and wide narrative).

He misses the net all the time. Just because he hits it sometimes too doesn't change that. And 26th defenseman in the league is not incredible for someone we are valuing above elite centers. Ekblad was rookie, so yeah, I would hope so.

Last season, Pietrangelo was tied(with Shattenkirk) for 21st in 5 v 5 Points/60 minutes.

The changed parameter being "5v5." I don't see why special teams should be taken out when evaluating a player. But yeah, 21st is still much different than 6th.

If your biggest complaint about a Dman is that "he can't score a big goal on his own" then you're really looking hard for something to complain about.

Why the strawmans? All I'm saying is he's not perfect, and people are using biased statistics.