Blues Trade Proposals Part too many to count

[SheasRebellion6]

If Fabbri is a nonstarter that makes things a little more difficult. I could envision a trade where Fabbri is the only roster player involved, however, the alternative to this would also be rather unlikely. For instance, Schwartz+Statsny+ is something I highly doubt you would consider doing. It's not like the Flyers actually plan on trading Giroux, but looking at our defensive pipeline it would appear as though a mutually beneficial deal could be made with a contending team.

 

[Chojin]

If Fabbri is a nonstarter that makes things a little more difficult. I could envision a trade where Fabbri is the only roster player involved, however, the alternative to this would also be rather unlikely. For instance, Schwartz+Statsny+ is something I highly doubt you would consider doing. It's not like the Flyers actually plan on trading Giroux, but looking at our defensive pipeline it would appear as though a mutually beneficial deal could be made with a contending team.

Fabbri is a non-starter for the crowd that only ever wants to trade spare parts for star players. I think most reasonable people would at least consider trading him for Giroux. However, there would be a number of issues to work out around salary, waiving trade protection, etc.

 

[Dbrownss]

I would assume Fabbri would be going to Philly if Giroux comes to Stl. More likely Shattenkirk+Fabbri. I have no desire to trade Fabbri....but being realistic, he'd be going the other way

 

[bleedblue1223]

People fully understand that a Giroux deal would require Fabbri, that's why the previous posts qualified it with, we wouldn't be able to get him because of that. We don't believe spare parts would get him.

Moving a Fabbri package for Giroux would be a terrible move for us long-term.

 

[BlueDream]

Moving Fabbri for him makes no sense. We are better off just seeing how good Fabbri becomes whiles paying him peanuts in the near future.

 

[Renard]

They are both about the same defensively IMO. They are just different in how they play.

I don't see why this argument always has to be so black and white of who is better. They are completely different types of players with different strengths and weaknesses, and ultimately are the similar caliber of player.

In my opinion, Berglund is to the forward positions what Christian Bachman was to defense. Both were guys with lots of skill but unwilling to compete at a high enough level to excel in the NHL.

Sobotka doesn't score enough to ever get much fan respect. I'll just have to live with that. He is easily dismissed - "Ha he's never scored more than 12 goals in a season."

But there is so much more than goal scoring. Despite his size, he is a punishing hitter. He can fight middleweights, too- something Berglund would never do. Sobotka is an outstanding faceoff man - Berglund is weak in this area. And he is a much faster skater than Berglund, who looks like he is struggling out there.

Berglund has a good shot, can score, but not enough to overcome his other shortcomings.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

In my opinion, Berglund is to the forward positions what Christian Bachman was to defense. Both were guys with lots of skill but unwilling to compete at a high enough level to excel in the NHL.

Sobotka doesn't score enough to ever get much fan respect. I'll just have to live with that. He is easily dismissed - "Ha he's never scored more than 12 goals in a season."

But there is so much more than goal scoring. Despite his size, he is a punishing hitter. He can fight middleweights, too- something Berglund would never do. Sobotka is an outstanding faceoff man - Berglund is weak in this area. And he is a much faster skater than Berglund, who looks like he is struggling out there.

Berglund has a good shot, can score, but not enough to overcome his other shortcomings.

Sadly, that's an exaggeration. He's never scored in double digits. Its a legitimate criticism, especially on a team where Lehtera gets vilified for lackluster production.

 

[bleedblue1223]

In my opinion, Berglund is to the forward positions what Christian Bachman was to defense. Both were guys with lots of skill but unwilling to compete at a high enough level to excel in the NHL.

Berglund has a good shot, can score, but not enough to overcome his other shortcomings.

Is his shortcoming skill or compete level, because it seems like you are contradicting yourself.

Berglund has always been a good competitor, but it's the skill he lacks. He came up a playmaker, but he never had the playmaking skills for the NHL. He can hold onto the puck, but he can't keep his head up and have the vision to find the pass, he just holds it and moves the puck along to keep possession. It's not a bad thing, he just doesn't have that skill. That's the main reason he hasn't been more productive.

 

[Vladys Gumption]

In my opinion, Berglund is to the forward positions what Christian Bachman was to defense. Both were guys with lots of skill but unwilling to compete at a high enough level to excel in the NHL.

Sobotka doesn't score enough to ever get much fan respect. I'll just have to live with that. He is easily dismissed - "Ha he's never scored more than 12 goals in a season."

But there is so much more than goal scoring. Despite his size, he is a punishing hitter. He can fight middleweights, too- something Berglund would never do. Sobotka is an outstanding faceoff man - Berglund is weak in this area. And he is a much faster skater than Berglund, who looks like he is struggling out there.

Berglund has a good shot, can score, but not enough to overcome his other shortcomings.

I'm not sure why you think Berglund doesn't have a high enough compete level. His compete level has never been the issue. Each player has his positives and negatives. You've essentially listed all of Sobotka's positives, and ignored Berglund's. Berglund is much better at winning board battles, possession and is better in the defensive zone. Plus his career worst in goals, is still higher than Sobotka's. And his career worst in points, which came in his second season, is only 5 points shy of Sobotka's career high.

For reference, Sobotka in his career has averaged 7.53 goals per 82 games. Berglund is at 18.91. He's scores well over twice as many goals per 82 games as Sobotka has. Furthermore, Sobotka's career points per 82 games is 26.4, while Berglund 38.7 per 82 games played. By most measure of comparison, minus face offs, Berglund is an equal player to Sobotka at worst. Realistically, he's still probably the better player.

 

[Renard]

I'm not sure why you think Berglund doesn't have a high enough compete level. His compete level has never been the issue. Each player has his positives and negatives. You've essentially listed all of Sobotka's positives, and ignored Berglund's. Berglund is much better at winning board battles, possession and is better in the defensive zone. Plus his career worst in goals, is still higher than Sobotka's. And his career worst in points, which came in his second season, is only 5 points shy of Sobotka's career high.

For reference, Sobotka in his career has averaged 7.53 goals per 82 games. Berglund is at 18.91. He's scores well over twice as many goals per 82 games as Sobotka has. Furthermore, Sobotka's career points per 82 games is 26.4, while Berglund 38.7 per 82 games played. By most measure of comparison, minus face offs, Berglund is an equal player to Sobotka at worst. Realistically, he's still probably the better player.

Back to the goal-scoring? I concede the goal scoring issue. Bergy is better.

Better at winning board battles? We had good seats for the playoff series against Los Angeles in the playoffs a couple of years ago. The Kings big forwards pushed Bergy around like he was a new kid moving into a tough neighborhood. I've been watching Bergy closely for years, and I do not see the player you talk about. He just isn't aggressive, isn't willing to mix it up. He doesn't want the contact and comes out second best when he gets involved.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

Back to the goal-scoring? I concede the goal scoring issue. Bergy is better.

Better at winning board battles? We had good seats for the playoff series against Los Angeles in the playoffs a couple of years ago. The Kings big forwards pushed Bergy around like he was a new kid moving into a tough neighborhood. I've been watching Bergy closely for years, and I do not see the player you talk about. He just isn't aggressive, isn't willing to mix it up. He doesn't want the contact and comes out second best when he gets involved.

Did you not feel Berglund was more assertive and effective in battles like that this post-season? I felt his play was a pleasant surprise.

I see Berglund as a guy who has had to embrace a bit different role over the past couple years, and its finally starting to crystallize a bit for him. No longer a primary center, and not counted on for top 6 minutes. He's a big, versatile 3rd line player who can move up the line-up or to the center when injuries dictate.

I'm not convinced the Blues are having to make a choice between Sobotka and Berglund, so I don't understand the fixation on comparing the two. But I do think Berglund should get some credit for what he does do. Looking at this playoff run, Berglund's play was never something where I felt the team was let down. And maybe he doesn't score a large number of goals (but higher than Sobotka) but I sure appreciated the timeliness of his goals this post-season. That Chicago goal was a back-breaker for them, and it was a joy to watch.

 

[Colt 55]

Back to the goal-scoring? I concede the goal scoring issue. Bergy is better.

Better at winning board battles? We had good seats for the playoff series against Los Angeles in the playoffs a couple of years ago. The Kings big forwards pushed Bergy around like he was a new kid moving into a tough neighborhood. I've been watching Bergy closely for years, and I do not see the player you talk about. He just isn't aggressive, isn't willing to mix it up. He doesn't want the contact and comes out second best when he gets involved.

You mean one of the playoff series where he was hurt?

 

[Renard]

Is his shortcoming skill or compete level, because it seems like you are contradicting yourself.

Berglund has always been a good competitor, but it's the skill he lacks. He came up a playmaker, but he never had the playmaking skills for the NHL. He can hold onto the puck, but he can't keep his head up and have the vision to find the pass, he just holds it and moves the puck along to keep possession. It's not a bad thing, he just doesn't have that skill. That's the main reason he hasn't been more productive.

Bergy did not have playmaking skill, and failed as a top six center as a consequence. He was awful in the faceoff circle to boot.

He does have a strong and accurate shot. That is why he has scored as often as he has. He can't deke with the puck to get past people. He has to depend on someone getting him the puck in a spot where he can put a good shot on goal. Remember the Blues' third goal in the seventh game of the Dallas series? Good work on the boards by Lehtera, who came up with the puck, and passed it out to Bergy near the blueline. Bergy put a strong shot on goal, and it deflected off a d-man on the way in.

 

[LetsGoBooze]

Shatty & Sobotka

for

Pastrnak & DeBrusk

 

[Renard]

You mean one of the playoff series where he was hurt?

The series I refer to is the 2013 playoff series against the Kings. Bergy wasn't hurt going into that series, that I can recall. He may have been hurt during the series, since Bergy took a beating. But he didn't miss any games.

 

[Spektre]

The Berglund vs Sobotka deal is kind of derailing the thread but....

Let's say you could clone each of them and all the clones would instantly be 25 years old. Would you rather have a team of 12 Sobotkas or 12 Berglunds ??

I can't see team Berglund ever winning a best of 7 series vs 12 Sobotkas. The Berglund team would be hard pressed to win a game.

Berglund is just frustrating to watch. He has the size and skill to play keep away for the most part. Yet that's the extent of it. If he makes a good pass while playing keep away it's back to the point. He has a good shot but isn't assertive. He doesn't drive the net. At times it seems he's absolutely scared to shoot the puck and it seems like it's 100% mental. At this point though he is who he is.

 

[Majorityof1]

The Berglund vs Sobotka deal is kind of derailing the thread but....

Let's say you could clone each of them and all the clones would instantly be 25 years old. Would you rather have a team of 12 Sobotkas or 12 Berglunds ??

I can't see team Berglund ever winning a best of 7 series vs 12 Sobotkas. The Berglund team would be hard pressed to win a game.

Berglund is just frustrating to watch. He has the size and skill to play keep away for the most part. Yet that's the extent of it. If he makes a good pass while playing keep away it's back to the point. He has a good shot but isn't assertive. He doesn't drive the net. At times it seems he's absolutely scared to shoot the puck and it seems like it's 100% mental. At this point though he is who he is.

But you don't field a team of all one kind of player. You needs lots of types of players.

Here's my view of the situation. Berglund is a middle 6 style of player whose skill set puts him at the lower end of that grouping. Sobotka is a bottom 6 type of player whose skill set puts him in the high end of that grouping. So they are both 3rd line caliber players. Berglund fell down into the role whears Sobotka rose up to it. There in lies the divide between people. Some people respect Sobotka because he is really good at what he can do, but goal scoring doesn't come naturally. Other people like Bergy because he plays a more offensive game. He even has bursts of play where he wouldn't look out of place on a 2nd line. And people are conditioned to think more scoring and playing on higher lines mean better player. But at the end of the day, they are both decent to good 3rd liners. Which one is better depends more on what you need.

For me, I take Sobotka due to his versatility. He can play 2 different lines and all 3 positions and PKs well. Berglund is pretty much a 3rd LW. He doesn't have he face-off skill to be a great center, although he can play there in a pinch. Also Sobotka's skills are more needed by the team atm. We need his face-offs, his better than average speed (at least BTB, better than Berglund), and his aggressive forechecking. We could use Berglund's size but he doesn't really utilize it all that well. Sobotka is also about a million cheaper, which makes him more valuable, all else being equal.

 

[bleedblue1223]

Bergy did not have playmaking skill, and failed as a top six center as a consequence. He was awful in the faceoff circle to boot.

He does have a strong and accurate shot. That is why he has scored as often as he has. He can't deke with the puck to get past people. He has to depend on someone getting him the puck in a spot where he can put a good shot on goal. Remember the Blues' third goal in the seventh game of the Dallas series? Good work on the boards by Lehtera, who came up with the puck, and passed it out to Bergy near the blueline. Bergy put a strong shot on goal, and it deflected off a d-man on the way in.

Then don't say he had loads of talent and he failed because of his compete level. Berglund did have playmaking skills, but they just weren't good enough to translate to the speed of the NHL.

 

[kimzey59]

The series I refer to is the 2013 playoff series against the Kings. Bergy wasn't hurt going into that series, that I can recall. He may have been hurt during the series, since Bergy took a beating. But he didn't miss any games.

That offseason he had the first of his shoulder surgeries.
The injury actually took place during the season(good luck finding the exact date), but it was determined that he wouldn't injure it further by playing so he tried to play through it. He was NOT healthy during that series.

 

[Renard]

[NHL][/NHL]

That offseason he had the first of his shoulder surgeries.
The injury actually took place during the season(good luck finding the exact date), but it was determined that he wouldn't injure it further by playing so he tried to play through it. He was NOT healthy during that series.

Maybe you are mixing up the 2014 series against the Blackhawks with the 2013 series against the Kings.

Bergy injured his shoulder late in the 2013-2014 regular season. It was a dislocation. He missed some games at the end of the regular season and a couple of games of the first round playoff series against the Backhawks. Bergy didn't have surgery in the offseason that year.

Bergy reinjured the should in January of 2015. He missed some time, then came back to finish the season. He had shoulder surgery in August of 2015.

 

[TruBlu]

That's a very poor analogy. I'm not against vaccines. I've had exactly 1 flu shot (thanks to the wife nagging) and that's the only year I've ever had the flu. It's been 6 years since then with no more flu shots and somehow no more flu. I guess I can't prove that the shot gave me the flu but the doctors couldn't and wouldn't say that it didn't.

It's true Berglund and Sobotka are different types of players. I bet I win with 12 Sobotka's vs 12 Berglund's most every game. I don't see a flood of people saying they'd take 12 Berlund's and expect to win. I'm not interested in hearing how it takes different types of players to win, that goes without saying.

12 Sobotka's >> 12 Berglund's every day of the week.

It would be nice to have Sobotka's faceoff ability, but I'm positive he isn't coming back this season. The only thing I can surmise is that he is either not going to be able to get out of his contract (i.e.,won't buy out his khl contract), or he is holding off coming back to lessen his chances of being packaged in a trade with Shatty.

 

[Ranksu]

I just hope Sobotka is back and we can really compare put end of this bs that Berglund is better then Sobotka.

I need to shut my mouth, jesus too many pages of nonesense dispute of player who might not even play in Bluesnote next year. Sorry.

Group hug?

 

[Spektre]

If Sobotka doesn't come back that should pressure Army into trading Shattenkirk. Unless he sees the Blues as a non-playoff team and thinks he can get more at the TDL

 

[trevorftw]

If it was 12 Bergies vs 12 sobotkas, the games would hinge entirely on defense and goaltending. Theyre both pretty anemic offensively. Who cares which one of these hypothetical teams would win against each other. They'd both be basement dwellers in the NHL.

 

[2 Minute Minor]

That's a very poor analogy. I'm not against vaccines. I've had exactly 1 flu shot (thanks to the wife nagging) and that's the only year I've ever had the flu. It's been 6 years since then with no more flu shots and somehow no more flu. I guess I can't prove that the shot gave me the flu but the doctors couldn't and wouldn't say that it didn't.

It's true Berglund and Sobotka are different types of players. I bet I win with 12 Sobotka's vs 12 Berglund's most every game. I don't see a flood of people saying they'd take 12 Berlund's and expect to win. I'm not interested in hearing how it takes different types of players to win, that goes without saying.

12 Sobotka's >> 12 Berglund's every day of the week.

I think a team with 6 of each would be better than either of those teams.

But if we're going to clone players, why aren't we cloning Tarasenko and Parayko?