OT: Blues get Bouwmeester

[Ricelund]

From LeBrun this morning:

Wings were in it on Bouwmeester but not willing to move a 1st-rd pick in the package. Which frankly, for Detroit, was right call

I would've moved the first. Oh well.

 

[Crymson]

an educated hockey mind

A comment based solely on the fact that he agreed with you, huh?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

A comment based solely on the fact that he agreed with you, huh?

nope but because it makes so much more sense then the arguements against acquiring him
- his playoff curse(sorcery isnt a legit arguement),
- the incredible cost to acquire him(fallacy),
- not a top pairing dman(again maybe only 4-6 teams actually have 2 better overall dman on their team out of 30 and we're not one of them)

and so forth

 

[Run the Jewels]

From LeBrun this morning:



I would've moved the first. Oh well.

Q is worth a 1st but Bouwmeester isn't? Very strange talent evaluation going on.

 

[Heaton]

Q is worth a 1st but Bouwmeester isn't? Very strange talent evaluation going on.

I think it was probably a situation of prospects OR a 1st rounder, not both. I think Bouwmeester is definitely better than Quincey - but the contract is something to think about. But I would've made the deal.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

From LeBrun this morning:



I would've moved the first. Oh well.

Why does Detroit need firsts with more very good prospects than they've had in 20 years?

We literally don't even have the ability to find room in our organization for all of our prospects...

You trade first rounders for Bouwmeesters --- Not Quinceys -- and that's the bottom line.

LeBrun is an ass-sucking hack.

 

[Epsilon]

I would have made that deal back when Rafalski retired and Lidstrom was still playing, but given the makeup of the team now and how they play I don't think Bouwmeester solves any problems. As others have said, he duplicates a lot of what Kronwall already does, without the occasional big hits. As a #2 next to Lidstrom he would have been fine; as a guy who's supposed to anchor a pairing I don't think he's worth it.

Let's be honest, a few moves for some veteran depth wouldn't be a bad thing but no reasonable trades (i.e. ones that can actually happen in real life) are going to elevate the Wings to being a prime contender. Winning the Stanley Cup, or even making a deep run in the playoffs (to say nothing of getting there to begin with) is going to largely require the current team to catch lightning in a bottle: Howard playing out of his mind, some role players getting hot and starting to score, etc.

 

[gretskidoo]

From LeBrun this morning:



I would've moved the first. Oh well.

I love it. Bouwmeester at 29 and that contract is not worth a 1st this year. Everyone knows this draft is awesome.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Why does Detroit need firsts with more very good prospects than they've had in 20 years?

We literally don't even have the ability to find room in our organization for all of our prospects...

You trade first rounders for Bouwmeesters --- Not Quinceys -- and that's the bottom line.

LeBrun is an ass-sucking hack.

no quincey was worth a first because we knew him from before and besides our goal was to try and build a pro sports franchise through a lottery(free agency) and if that didnt work it was to overpay and commit to bottom feeder players in a mad scramble of desperation

is brett lebda available for our 2013 first round pick?

 

[sepster]

I'm glad the Wings didn't make this move. Bouwmeester is not a difference maker, especially for this team.

I'll laugh my ass off if St Louis, who are 1 pt up from missing the playoffs, have a tough run down the stretch and miss, thereby extending Bouwmeester's playoff drought.


EDIT: Another thing, for those saying, "oh JBow just didn't have any depth around him, he's not the problem, he'll be better, you'll see" I wouldn't bet the farm on that. Is it a possibility? Yes. Is it likely? probably not. This scenario happens all the time with players who garner some amount of hype, usually based on potential rather than production and coming from "small market teams" where, oh my only if they had a chance with some other talent around them they'd be better.

Look at players that fit this bill over the years:
Doug Wieght
Mike Comrie
Mike York
Anson Carter
Ray Whitney
Olli Yokinen
Valerie Bure
on and on and on

Bouwmeester was brought to Calgary to be a difference maker. When he arrived, Calgary got worse. He's had talent around him and he has never stood out to be a difference maker. Not in Calgary, not in Florida, not on Team Canada, not ever in his career. High-end talent make others around them better. High-end talent does not allow others to drag them down to being average, which is what has happened to Bouwmeester throughout his career. I think he'll continue to be in St Louis what he has been throughout his entire career: a good Dman but not a difference maker.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I am going to post this again because I think it is an important point. Surprised no one noticed it:

The fact that they were cutting Bouwmeester at all answers your question.

Why would any team trade their 28-minute a night defenseman when he's 30 years old and has 6-8 years of solid play in front of him?

Unless he was a UFA who planned to walk, why would you do this?

If you are rebuilding, you trade the Iginlas and Kiprusoffs.

You don't trade a defenseman who'll still be good in 3-4 years when the new players are paying dividends. Especially in today's NHL, when bad teams aren't as bad as they were and good teams aren't so hard to catch.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I would have made that deal back when Rafalski retired and Lidstrom was still playing, but given the makeup of the team now and how they play I don't think Bouwmeester solves any problems. As others have said, he duplicates a lot of what Kronwall already does, without the occasional big hits. As a #2 next to Lidstrom he would have been fine; as a guy who's supposed to anchor a pairing I don't think he's worth it.

Let's be honest, a few moves for some veteran depth wouldn't be a bad thing but no reasonable trades (i.e. ones that can actually happen in real life) are going to elevate the Wings to being a prime contender. Winning the Stanley Cup, or even making a deep run in the playoffs (to say nothing of getting there to begin with) is going to largely require the current team to catch lightning in a bottle: Howard playing out of his mind, some role players getting hot and starting to score, etc.

i think the only reason detroit has changed its style, if we really have, is not because of some deliberate effort to do so but because we havent been able to properly maintain the style that has worked for us all along and thus have had our hand served to us

 

[Ricelund]

More from LeBrun:

The Wings were in on Bouwmeester, but, in the end, they didn’t get him because they didn’t include a first-round pick, a source told ESPN.com.

Which quite frankly, is a smart, smart, smart decision by Wings GM Ken Holland.

Yes, Bouwmeester is the top-four D-man the Wings have been craving all year, but Detroit is not in a position organizationally to be trading first-round picks. They moved a first-round pick last year for Kyle Quincey when they still had Nicklas Lidstrom and Brad Stuart on the team and felt they had a shot to really contend.

But now? Of course they still like their team if they get healthy and make the playoffs, but this is an organization that needs to re-stock and use its own first-round picks to actually draft players.
They’ve been near the top of the standings for 20 years. It’s time to draft and develop again.
There is no way Holland could have ever justified moving a first-rounder to Calgary. What if the Wings miss the playoffs? Even had they structured the deal like St. Louis by deferring the first-rounder to 2014, who’s to say what Detroit is going to look like next season if they miss the playoffs this season? That pick could be even more dangerous to give Calgary.

My belief is that Detroit’s final offer on Bouwmeester was a second-round pick and two prospects. And frankly, that’s as far as the Wings could have gone.

Huh. Wonder where that bolded line came from.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I would have made that deal back when Rafalski retired and Lidstrom was still playing, but given the makeup of the team now and how they play I don't think Bouwmeester solves any problems. As others have said, he duplicates a lot of what Kronwall already does, without the occasional big hits. As a #2 next to Lidstrom he would have been fine; as a guy who's supposed to anchor a pairing I don't think he's worth it.

Let's be honest, a few moves for some veteran depth wouldn't be a bad thing but no reasonable trades (i.e. ones that can actually happen in real life) are going to elevate the Wings to being a prime contender. Winning the Stanley Cup, or even making a deep run in the playoffs (to say nothing of getting there to begin with) is going to largely require the current team to catch lightning in a bottle: Howard playing out of his mind, some role players getting hot and starting to score, etc.

Bouwmeester + Gaborik wouldn't give this team a fighting shot?

 

[JmanWingsFan]

From LeBrun this morning:



I would've moved the first. Oh well.

Good thing you aren't the GM. We haven't picked in the first round since 2010. Now's not the time to be dumping 1st rounders on marginal upgrades with $6.8 Million cap hits. When you're a GM, you have to think about the present, and the future. That means sacrificing present success for a better future.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

More from LeBrun:


Huh. Wonder where that bolded line came from.

Looks like LeBrun has been told the Red Wings are standing pat.

I can live with trading kids if you're going to get a sniper and a top 4 defenseman.

Or I can live with selling off Cleary and Quincey and the excess baggage we have on the team.

I can't support what's about to happen --- Nothing.

Holland is an indecisive, impotent fat cat who forgot where he left his balls.

 

[Ricelund]

Bouwmeester + Gaborik wouldn't give this team a fighting shot?

Not that I disagree with you, but weren't you making the claim a few months ago that Suter and Parise or Nash wouldn't have made the team that much better?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58604707&postcount=20

Even if you swing for the fences ... you still got to protect the plate a little bit. As good as Nash is, he's past his prime goal scoring years. As good as Suter is, he doesn't replace Lidstrom and Stuart.

It's debateable how much Nash and Suter improve on last year's first round loser. And it's still important that we develop the guys in the AHL.

 

[Ricelund]

Good thing you aren't the GM. We haven't picked in the first round since 2010. Now's not the time to be dumping 1st rounders on marginal upgrades with $6.8 Million cap hits. When you're a GM, you have to think about the present, and the future. That means sacrificing present success for a better future.

Like trading a first for Kyle Quincey?

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Like trading a first for Kyle Quincey?

We had Lidstrom and we were playing for the President's trophy. Nobody predicted everyone would get injured right afterwords. Nobody. Now we don't have Lidstrom. This team isn't in the shape that you dump assets into winning now. But in any case, bringing up Quincey is hypocritical. Because if it's bad asset management to dump a first for Quincey (which then at the time would have been useless anyways), then certainly it follows that a 1st for Bouwmeester at this point in time is also bad asset management.

 

[joe89]

Well Berra has a 50/50 chance to be either a fair NHL backup or the next Fasth. If he brings his strongest game he is stronger than Hiller (just to compare to another swiss goaltender), with the advantage that he ain't small, but still quick.

I can only judge Berra of what he's done up to this point, and he's not close to the merits of Fasth before heading to NA. Fasth was a two-time best SEL goalie, SEL MVP, World Championship best goalie, and World Championship MVP.

Berra to his advantage is younger and got size you can't teach, but is as of today a lot more comparable to Daniel Larsson than Viktor Fasth. Larsson is similar in age and a one-time SEL goalie of the year(Berra being a one-time NLA goalie of the year), and both have done their share of International play but nothing that stands out. They were also both drafted in 2006. I'm not one to say he's absolutely can't turn out to be a starter down the line but the odds are definitely worse than 50/50.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Weren't you making the claim a few months ago that Suter and Parise or Nash wouldn't have made the team that much better?

Parise and Suter? Yes.

Parise by himself? No.

Nash by himself? no.

You know that I'm pretty critical of the job Holland has done over the last 3-4 years.
He's allowed the roster to get weak without even developing a single player other than Abdelkader.

In my estimation, each year, Holland needed to be COMMITING to developing 1 or 2 youngsters. In the cap era, this is an absolute must.

You hope that the young talent replaces the older guys when they leave/retire.

But when you resign your vets to two-year deals, and sign the Samuelssons, or trade firsts for Quinceys, these mediocre players BLOCK the development path for your youngsters and they don't replace the Lidstrom, Rafalskis, Stuarts, or Hossas, or even Hudlers.

Holland had a laundry list going back to 10-11
Winger for Pav, righthanded center, develop Kindl, Mursak

for 11-12
Winger for Pav, right hand center, develop kindl, develop mursak, develop Tatar, Develop smith, replace Rafalski

For 12-13
Winger for Pav, right hand center, develop kindl, develop mursak, develop tatar, develop nyquist, develop Smith, replace Rafalski, replace Stuart, replace Lidstrom, replace Hudler

Like any to-do list, when you don't scratch things off your list as you go, things become more difficult.

Think about how great an offseason Holland needed to have this year...
And how much easier it would have been on him-- if Kindl had established himself as a top 4 defennnseman. If Smith had learned a year from Lidstrom and Stuart.
If Tatar played all last year and scored 15 goals for the Wings.

Maybe you never sign White because Kindl was ready. Maybe you don't sign a Samuelsson because Tatar was ready. Maybe you don' trade for a Quincey because Smith was ready

You know what that is? That's $10M right there.

The Red Wings are spinning their famous Winged Wheel right now.

And I want a sign from Ken Holland that he's finally taking this team in a direction.

He needs to buy big (Top 4 D, top 6 Winger)
Or
He needs to sell.

One or the other.

No more half-hearted attempts at a to-do list

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I can only judge Berra of what he's done up to this point, and he's not close to the merits of Fasth before heading to NA. Fasth was a two-time best SEL goalie, SEL MVP, World Championship best goalie, and World Championship MVP.

Berra to his advantage is younger and got size you can't teach, but is as of today a lot more comparable to Daniel Larsson than Viktor Fasth. Larsson is similar in age and a one-time SEL goalie of the year(Berra being a one-time NLA goalie of the year), and both have done their share of International play but nothing that stands out. They were also both drafted in 2006. I'm not one to say he's absolutely can't turn out to be a starter down the line but the odds are definitely worse than 50/50.

I thought Berra looked like Patrick Roy as an 18 year old and was surprised he never made the NHL

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Not that I disagree with you, but weren't you making the claim a few months ago that Suter and Parise or Nash wouldn't have made the team that much better?

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=58604707&postcount=20

Right. You still need to develop Tatar and Nyquist and Smith and Kindl, etc.

And that's difficult when you sign Sammy and Brunner and Tootoo on day 3 or whatever.

thanks for quoting that. It's good to see that I was as smart back then as I am today.

That was actually a pretty astute comment

Even if you swing for the fences ... you still got to protect the plate a little bit. As good as Nash is, he's past his prime goal scoring years. As good as Suter is, he doesn't replace Lidstrom and Stuart

It's debateable how much Nash and Suter improve on last year's first round loser. And it's still important that we develop the guys in the AHL.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

We had Lidstrom and we were playing for the President's trophy. Nobody predicted everyone would get injured right afterwords. Nobody. Now we don't have Lidstrom. This team isn't in the shape that you dump assets into winning now. But in any case, bringing up Quincey is hypocritical. Because if it's bad asset management to dump a first for Quincey (which then at the time would have been useless anyways), then certainly it follows that a 1st for Bouwmeester at this point in time is also bad asset management.

I am pretty sure everyone predicted that Lidstrom would soon retire

kyle quincey was not a playoff rental to hopefully allow lidtsrom to go out with a bang, he was and always has been intended to help ease the loss of lidstrom,which at the cost of a 1st rd pick and how below average quincey was, is and always will be, terrible asset mgmt and long-term planning

the difference between quincey and jaybo and why its important and relevant to discuss the merits of losing a 1st rd pick, is because neither player would ever be considered just a playoff rental, both are under 30 but only one can play on our top pair for the next half decade or more and thus only one is actually worth moving a 1st rd pick for.

if all we wanted last year was a playoff rental then we should have been targeting an energetic grinding type depth forward, the typical playoff player(a dallas drake)

 

[Henkka]

Suter really looks like a great Norris-caliber guy. Front-runner to win the Norris and biggest thing for Wild's great season compared to last season. Too bad his girlfriend said no for Detroit.

How has this Sammy-signing prevented our prospects from development? He has played total of 51 minutes and all his lost minutes have gone to a prospect.

kyle quincey was not a playoff rental to hopefully allow lidtsrom to go out with a bang, he was and always has been intended to help ease the loss of lidstrom,which at the cost of a 1st rd pick and how below average quincey was, is and always will be, terrible asset mgmt and long-term planning

Kyle Quincey was traded to replace leaving Brad Stuart. Shouldn't this be clear for everybody already?