Post-Game Talk: Big L (Habs 3-6 Panthers)

[LyricalLyricist]

It's really not complicated. The team badly needs to add high-end talent. Period.

They have three options available to acquire said players;
Free agency. If we can sign Panarin or Stone, great. I wouldn't hold my breath though.
Trade for them. What expendable assets do we have to realistically pull this off? Our lineup is already limited as it is and our prospect pool is only just now starting to take shape after suffering from an extensive dry spell.
Which leaves us the third option, getting them through the draft.(This is where selling guys like Tatar who have good value now but won't be the ones moving the needle for us during our "window" comes in)

OR

You can not sell anyone because "they'd need to be replaced" and not add any high-end talent in the process to end up with exactly the same good-but-not-good-enough team we've seen for the past 25 years.

Sure, trying to get an impact player through a 1st and prospect is not ideal but what other options are there? I haven't seen you come up with any solutions mate.

I'm perplexed. We've gone in circles here. You knew from start I was talking about being seller at deadline. What happens after is something different.

So your idea is to trade Drouin for say that late 1st and a prospect and hope they are more talented than Drouin?

You should look up how many players in late 1st end up better than Drouin. It's not many.

As for my suggestion, dude...I was talking about getting a couple picks for expiring contracts like Benn not trying to find game breaking talent with a 25-30th overall pick. If you want to know my true suggestion its to keep Drouin over a late 1st and a prospect or to trade him in off-season.

 

[G0bias]

I'm perplexed. We've gone in circles here. You knew from start I was talking about being seller at deadline. What happens after is something different.

So your idea is to trade Drouin for say that late 1st and a prospect and hope they are more talented than Drouin?

You should look up how many players in late 1st end up better than Drouin. It's not many.

As for my suggestion, dude...I was talking about getting a couple picks for expiring contracts like Benn not trying to find game breaking talent with a 25-30th overall pick. If you want to know my true suggestion its to keep Drouin over a late 1st and a prospect or to trade him in off-season.

Dude you're mixing so many things here (or maybe I didn't make myself clear), you were talking of Tatar returning a late 1st and prospect, so I went with that. I never once said that's what I'd trade Drouin for. You went on about not trading Tatar, Byron, Shaw because they'd "have to be replaced" and "it wouldn't be worth it" so I explained how not selling our assets has helped us absolutely never in the past 25 years.

I think you're too focused on the wrong questions anyways. If a team at the deadline happens to be willing to give you the value you're looking for Drouin, you take the deal, you're not gonna say "sorry no, I said I'd only be trading him between July and October. I also think he'd be more of an off-season move but if it happens at the deadline, who cares.

(And no your initial post didn't specifically say at the deadline, only that'd we'd sell. We sold Pacioretty in the off-season, hence why I brought up Drouin's name)

 

[NotProkofievian]

Let's hear it for Drouin who's doing the Lord's work for our draft pick!

 

[nhlfan9191]

There are other francophone players that can be added via other trades or the same trade. I don't think that's an issue if the francophone player they are holding on to, is not someone who should be part of their core from a hockey standpoint.

There were French players we could’ve gone after when Desharnais was here too. It seems during the Bergevin era, they need to have a pet and Drouin has been anointed that by management, whether that be him being given a chance to play center for an entire season when he clearly wasn’t one, the contract he was gifted after a season in the league, or the price they were willing to pay to acquire him in a trade when Tampa was clearly not in a position of strength with the expansion draft. Things would have to go horribly wrong for them to admit they made a mistake with this guy. Until then, we’re stuck with him. He’ll do something pretty every once in a while but he’s an absolute mess in his own end. How we gave him center ice responsibilities for an entire year amazes me. You don’t have to look far to see what combination of things saw us in a lottery position last season, although Price made a good meatshield.

 

[The Great Weal]

Let's hear it for Drouin who's doing the Lord's work for our draft pick!

Costly turnover in Nashville.
Exact same turnover in Tampa and got called out by Julien.
EXACT same turnover tonight.
How do you make Drouin's eyes light up? Shine a flashlight in his ears.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Costly turnover in Nashville.
Exact same turnover in Tampa and got called out by Julien.
EXACT same turnover tonight.
How do you make Drouin's eyes light up? Shine a flashlight in his ears.

bUt He'S sO tAlNetNEd!

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Dude you're mixing so many things here (or maybe I didn't make myself clear), you were talking of Tatar returning a late 1st and prospect, so I went with that. I never once said that's what I'd trade Drouin for. You went on about not trading Tatar, Byron, Shaw because they'd "have to be replaced" and "it wouldn't be worth it" so I explained how not selling our assets has helped us absolutely never in the past 25 years.

I said Tatar may not be worth trading and that Byron and Shaw are a mixed bag and more likely to be replaced:

Because you'd need to replace them. Tatar has been a legit top 6 forward for us. You'll trade him for something but you'll need to replace him and likely pay a UFA premium to do so.

Shaw and Byron are a little more of a mixed bag since they're not true top 6 guys so maybe you can sell high and replace them easier.

I think you're too focused on the wrong questions anyways. If a team at the deadline happens to be willing to give you the value you're looking for Drouin, you take the deal, you're not gonna say "sorry no, I said I'd only be trading him between July and October. I also think he'd be more of an off-season move but if it happens at the deadline, who cares.

​

Except I can't recall a single deadline move where a buyer traded away a talented player for another. I really can't. It's not that Drouin is or isn't expendable or that we can or cannot get value for him. I just don't see it at the deadline because there is very little track record of that type of trade occuring then. Why would I propose rejecting a good offer?

(And no your initial post didn't specifically say at the deadline, only that'd we'd sell. We sold Pacioretty in the off-season, hence why I brought up Drouin's name)

The term seller is usually coined about teams who fail to make playoffs during the season. In the 0ff-season such moves would be called a re-tool or a rebuild rather than being sellers.

Not to mention bringing up Jordie Benn and asking about expiring contracts isn't really relevant come draft day or the off-season. It's a little bit implied. Let's chalk it up to me not being clear enough. I thought it was clear but I guess not so I'll take responsibility for that one. Cheers.​

 

[Runner77]

Both Drouin and Danault called out by AC last evening.

And they mentioned how opposition game plans are all premised on aggressively forechecking the left side of the Habs's D -- which makes sense, until the Habs are in a position to shore it up.

Also, they've put the spotlight on Mete, how he can't just be a defensively responsible D, he needs to put up points. They said how Lehkonen is doing nothing.

Damp House believes that the recent losses will have probably discouraged MB from making further moves.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Both Drouin and Danault called out by AC last evening.

And they mentioned how opposition game plans are all premised on aggressively forechecking the left side of the Habs's D -- which makes sense, until the Habs are in a position to shore it up.

Also, they've put the spotlight on Mete, how he can't just be a defensively responsible D, he needs to put up points. They said how Lehkonen is doing nothing.

Damp House believes that the recent losses will have probably discouraged MB from making further moves.

I hope so. I think Lehkonen is expendable but I fear he'd break out later. The more time goes on though the notion of his upside and potential vanishes and his value goes lower. It's too bad, would love to throw him in the bag for a young mobile top 4 LD with a good pass. I have no idea how Minnesota values Brodin but he's a guy I like and I think he's LD.

 

[G0bias]

​

Except I can't recall a single deadline move where a buyer traded away a talented player for another. I really can't.

You can't imagine a scenario where a team would like to add Drouin for a push in exchange for say a high end prospect+ ?

The term seller is usually coined about teams who fail to make playoffs during the season. In the 0ff-season such moves would be called a re-tool or a rebuild rather than being sellers.

Bubble teams have sold in the past. Really just semantics .

Not to mention bringing up Jordie Benn and asking about expiring contracts isn't really relevant come draft day or the off-season. It's a little bit implied. Let's chalk it up to me not being clear enough. I thought it was clear but I guess not so I'll take responsibility for that one. Cheers.

​

I just don't agree guys with term can't be traded at the deadline. As long as value is there, I wouldn't be closing any doors. Cheers.

 

[Runner77]

...

As an off-season move? Sure. Just we aren't speaking of same context now. Anything and anyone can be traded in 0ff-season.

...

(And no your initial post didn't specifically say at the deadline, only that'd we'd sell. We sold Pacioretty in the off-season, hence why I brought up Drouin's name)

Given the above comment in brackets, it would appear that your initial post was not limited to the current context or at least, that it didn't clearly circumscribe the issue that way.

Edit: never mind, I see that LL answered this in a post upstream, that was made as I was writing this.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Costly turnover in Nashville.
Exact same turnover in Tampa and got called out by Julien.
EXACT same turnover tonight.
How do you make Drouin's eyes light up? Shine a flashlight in his ears.

I absolutely love that last metaphor. Brilliant.

 

[Runner77]

I absolutely love that last metaphor. Brilliant.

A similar one I had heard about Expos pitcher Elias Sosa -- the lights are on but there is no one home.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

You can't imagine a scenario where a team would like to add Drouin for a push in exchange for say a high end prospect+ ?

Of course. I just don't see any team who is looking to buy having the type of high end prospect that would be better than Drouin himself. For all his faults, he's pretty talented just the same.

I just don't agree guys with term can't be traded at the deadline. As long as value is there, I wouldn't be closing any doors. Cheers.

Of course they can, I'm just unsure if it's wise in every case. As I said Tatar seems to have settled in nicely but Byron and Shaw aren't that special. Good complimentary guys but I'd sell high for sure if market is there.

 

[NotProkofievian]

This L was bigly yuge, but we really need to lose the next game against Columbus too. Because we're in the wildcard spot we're also fighting with the Metro teams. It doesn't really make a difference if Carolina surges and Columbus shits their pants.

 

[G0bias]

Of course. I just don't see any team who is looking to buy having the type of high end prospect that would be better than Drouin himself. For all his faults, he's pretty talented just the same.

How do we know exactly who's looking to buy?
As of right now there's 7 or 8 western teams in the race for a wildcard spot. 4 in the East excluding us. That's 23 teams total in a position to make the playoffs. While not all of them might be looking to buy, that's still a pretty big pool to fish in.

Of course they can, I'm just unsure if it's wise in every case. As I said Tatar seems to have settled in nicely but Byron and Shaw aren't that special. Good complimentary guys but I'd sell high for sure if market is there.

Agreed. As for Tatar, I'll use another point you expressed in your initial post. If selling Petry, as productive as he's been, represents a massive shakeup, then clearly this team is not anywhere near a position to win(not just a series but a Cup) anytime soon. Tatar while not old is still 28, what are the odds he'll be as effective in 3, 4 years? We're already seeing signs of slowing down with Pacioretty. Could Tatar be one of those who buck the trend? Possible, who knows. I think it'd be foolish not to consider him an option simply because he's having success now, when we're still so far.

 

[Spearmint Rhino]

Clock striking 12 on Rindercella

Will be on the outside looking in this time next week

 

[BargainBinSpecial]

Well, either you are buyers or sellers. The Habs are slumping hard and will probably be hitting the golf courses by April if MB doesn't get a top D and scoring winger or sniper. Maybe he shouldn't have touched the 4th line to begin with. So, MB has decisions to make. But that's MB for you, he loves his 4th liners. I keep saying how MB is way of over his head but as you can see a 4th game losing streak reveals how many flaws this team has. They are not contenders. At least, they are losing to contenders but last night was a total blowout to a non playoff team. I believe a 4th one this season.

For starters, I think Drouin needs to go. He's just too much of an enigmatic player. We realize why Tampa gave up on him. They are building something and heading in the right direction with the current players but Drouin doesn't want to elevate his game and become that star player. He's got all the talent to do it, reminds me of another Kovalev.

Peca, Byron, Lek, Benn and Hudon should all be traded for picks or good players signed long term that will help next year. I would keep Byron as he is pretty fast but he's 30, you got Poehling and Suzuki coming so I don't see a place for him. I would keep Petry and Shaw for now.

They just need to stockpile on picks and prospects again. Go at it again, next year. There are very good UFAs in the summer. MB has to fix his biggest blunder with Alzner.

 

[L4br3cqu3]

I can't go along with this.

We'd be in so much better shape with a couple of key players. And on the flipside we can get some good value out of vets. Do one or the other. Otherwise we're going to watch this again next season.

The 'dangers' of being a bubble team.

'Hockey trades' are costly, especially if a GM wants real quality, not mere fillers like we got on many occasions lately. Not sure I want to pay what it's going to cost, even for a good player.

Now on the flip side, if we're selling, depends to which extent we'll want to go. Selling a UFA-to-be 6th D like Benn isn't really selling, it's just trying to maximize our 'losses'. Selling guys like Petry, Lehkonen, Tatar, now that's selling, and indeed, could reap rewards, but could also shatter the 'on-and-off-the-ice' chemistry the team seems to have finally managed to create.

But then, we could still manage to get into playoffs without these players, so who knows.

Status quo is what I prone mainly because I think that in our situation, where no one expected the team to be in a playoff spot near TDL, perhaps not even the players themselves, this season is kind of a 'victory' already, there's been a lot of growth among our young players, and if we change the team too much, we may f*** the chemistry.

I know I don't want our picks/prospects traded, patience is key, we have a chance to do it right for yet another time, I just hope this is -the- time.

 

[blarneylad]

Well, either you are buyers or sellers. The Habs are slumping hard and will probably be hitting the golf courses by April if MB doesn't get a top D and scoring winger or sniper. Maybe he shouldn't have touched the 4th line to begin with. So, MB has decisions to make. But that's MB for you, he loves his 4th liners. I keep saying how MB is way of over his head but as you can see a 4th game losing streak reveals how many flaws this team has. They are not contenders. At least, they are losing to contenders but last night was a total blowout to a non playoff team. I believe a 4th one this season.

For starters, I think Drouin needs to go. He's just too much of an enigmatic player. We realize why Tampa gave up on him. They are building something and heading in the right direction with the current players but Drouin doesn't want to elevate his game and become that star player. He's got all the talent to do it, reminds me of another Kovalev.

Peca, Byron, Lek, Benn and Hudon should all be traded for picks or good players signed long term that will help next year. I would keep Byron as he is pretty fast but he's 30, you got Poehling and Suzuki coming so I don't see a place for him. I would keep Petry and Shaw for now.

They just need to stockpile on picks and prospects again. Go at it again, next year. There are very good UFAs in the summer. MB has to fix his biggest blunder with Alzner.

If a 4 game Losing streak shows how many flaws the team has, does their overall season thus far show they are good?

 

[WeThreeKings]

If a 4 game Losing streak shows how many flaws the team has, does their overall season thus far show they are good?

If you consider the New Jersey Devils as a good team because of their season last year, sure.

 

[bobholly39]

Didnt we just win like 6-7 games in a row and give 2nd spot in division a run for its money?

We werent going to win every game till the end. I rather we go through a bad stretch in February than April. This is the first time we have 3 regulation losses in a row - relax?

We lost in Nashville after playing a mostly good game against a top team. Tampa we hung in for 2 periods and lost to the undisputed best team by far this season in the 3rd period.

And we of course had a bad game yesterday (with our backup no less).

The sky is hardly falling - let alone already fallen.

We'll rebound and we'll also make the playoffs. Everyone is always so negative around here. I cant wait to see us win a cup to have everyone here come complain "omg we dont have a top 30 pick this draft now well never be able to build for the future"

 

[NotProkofievian]

Didnt we just win like 6-7 games in a row and give 2nd spot in division a run for its money?

We werent going to win every game till the end. I rather we go through a bad stretch in February than April. This is the first time we have 3 regulation losses in a row - relax?

We lost in Nashville after playing a mostly good game against a top team. Tampa we hung in for 2 periods and lost to the undisputed best team by far this season in the 3rd period.

And we of course had a bad game yesterday (with our backup no less).

The sky is hardly falling - let alone already fallen.

We'll rebound and we'll also make the playoffs. Everyone is always so negative around here. I cant wait to see us win a cup to have everyone here come complain "omg we dont have a top 30 pick this draft now well never be able to build for the future"

Well at least you're not arguing that we're 5 games away from being 5 games away this year.

 

[BLONG7]

Disappointed with the last few games...........then Winnipeg game tricked me in to thinking we were a good team.

Drouin is softer than the butter dish in July. An absolute turnover machine..........

 

[BLONG7]

Didnt we just win like 6-7 games in a row and give 2nd spot in division a run for its money?

We werent going to win every game till the end. I rather we go through a bad stretch in February than April. This is the first time we have 3 regulation losses in a row - relax?

We lost in Nashville after playing a mostly good game against a top team. Tampa we hung in for 2 periods and lost to the undisputed best team by far this season in the 3rd period.

And we of course had a bad game yesterday (with our backup no less).

The sky is hardly falling - let alone already fallen.

We'll rebound and we'll also make the playoffs. Everyone is always so negative around here. I cant wait to see us win a cup to have everyone here come complain "omg we dont have a top 30 pick this draft now well never be able to build for the future"

That's the spirit.............I hope you are right, but............