Injury Report: Big Buff Discussion

[Mortimer Snerd]

That is my concern. Rumor has it that the Winnipeg Jets lost money for the first time since moving from Atlanta, last season. That has to be concerning for a ownership group that was budgeting on being a "middle of the pack" team, in terms of cap space, not spending to the upper limit.

It would be great to spend like Toronto or the Rangers, and fix this problem, but people who want this have no understanding of the economics of a small market NHL club. We will just have to weather the storm, and continue to focus on drafting and developing players, which has worked for us in the past decade.

That isn't what I would call Rumour. It is an analysis by Forbes. But it is a superficial and incomplete analysis. I don't think they actually lost money last year. They did get 3 PO games and I think that would have been enough to keep them in the black.

Edit: I also believe they budgeted to spend to the cap. If they are not planning on spending to the cap then they are not planning on winning. They will draft and develop players for other teams. If that was the case they would not have extended Buff, Little and Wheeler.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Many NHL franchises are tightly woven into a larger corporate structure, each with their own balance sheets. I think the NHL franchise is often making money for other aligned businesses, even if they are operating at a bit of a deficit. The Jets / TNSE are an example.

I agree - but I think you have to be careful with that line of reasoning. It would be easy to overestimate the Jets contribution to the TNSE bottom line. Ideally each business unit should be paying its own way. That means more than just breaking even. It needs to make as much as that capital would make if it was invested elsewhere. This is why you see some operations closing even though they are making a little profit.

But when that does not happen, a business unit may still be responsible for generating profit from another unit. I don't know how BMTSP would make out without the Jets. Are there other events that could fill enough of those dates to make up the loss? IDK but my guess would be not. But I also don't know how the Jets affect the books for BMTSP. Do the Jets pay full market value rent, or are they getting a deal? How about the Shark Club? I'm pretty sure the Jets help drive revenue there.

You would need access to all of that information, and more, to truly be able to evaluate the profitability of the Jets. I doubt Forbes had that access.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

As the season wears on, my patience with his "goofiness" wears very thin. Its becoming very annoying. I *love* the player - make no mistake, he's a super freak -> but holy mother of moses, stawp with the stupidity already.

What stupidity exactly is he up to right now? I'm not sure he has much choice right now. He may have painted himself into a corner now that the league and NHLPA are involved. He needs to get himself ready to play and let the grievance procedure play out.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

David Thompson is in that financial class.

He is probably at the head of that class.
He didn't get that way by throwing his money away.

 

[kanadalainen]

What stupidity exactly is he up to right now? I'm not sure he has much choice right now. He may have painted himself into a corner now that the league and NHLPA are involved. He needs to get himself ready to play and let the grievance procedure play out.

You have a point, none at present, and he has no choice now. But the pathway to this point has been *laced* with it. I'm just grumpy.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

You have a point, none at present, and he has no choice now. But the pathway to this point has been *laced* with it. I'm just grumpy.

I'm getting a little grumpy too. But right now, it is the uncertainty that is bothering me. Settle this grievance please. Then maybe we can hear from Buff - and see him skating in rehab.

 

[Zippity]

FWIW The Jets do not own the arena, Chipman and his investors own it. Remove the Jet’s income from the arena and you have an interesting situation regarding profitability. My guess is that Chipman and his investors are doing just fine.......as they should be.

Does Forbes take in consideration the sweet deal with the VLTs and huge tax concessions? Jets also have the highest ticket prices in the league

 

[larmex99]

Does Forbes take in consideration the sweet deal with the VLTs and huge tax concessions? Jets also have the highest ticket prices in the league

Not a chance. They work from publicly available information.

 

[Zippity]

Not a chance. They work from publicly available information.

Approximately $40 million towards construction of the arena back in 2001
- A rebate of entertainment tax dollars for 25 years ($3 million this year alone)
- A rebate of business taxes for 25 years ($250,000 this year alone)
- A special property tax break, taxing it on a lower portion of its assessed value (worth millions)
- Around $1.5 million in VLT revenues each year
- Over a 25 year period, that's likely over $165 million of public funds
The True North group gets to keep 75% of the profits from its VLTs. The rest flows to the provincial government.
The lounge near your house keeps 25% of its VLT profits. The rest flows to the provincial government.

 

[Chewmasey]

What kind of track record does this mutual friend have?

Hope this is true. I've still never seen Buff play, live.

LoL pretty decent record, he doesn't talk a ton of hockey when he sees him, mainly because my friend doesn't pry into him like that when they see each other, they mainly talk about shoes and fishing lol.
Buffs got alot of expensive fishing gear, and a decent shoe collection, that I know of lol

 

[tgo0]

Is there a date that Buff needs to be on the active roster to be playoff eligible?

I know that’s what the TDL is for, new acquisitions playoff eligibility (trades can still happen during the season but after the TDL, just can’t play in the playoffs). Just not sure how a signed but suspended/non active roster player fits

 

[jgimp]

Does Forbes take in consideration the sweet deal with the VLTs and huge tax concessions? Jets also have the highest ticket prices in the league

Try Toronto

 

[surixon]

How has this not been dealt with yet. It shouldn't take a long time for an arbitrator to hear and rule on this case.....

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

How has this not been dealt with yet. It shouldn't take a long time for an arbitrator to hear and rule on this case.....

It sounds like this can be a slothful process. This particular comment from an article on NHL grievances does not give cause for optimism:

The NHL and NHLPA must select grievances they've filed which are over 18 months old to arbitrate first before moving on to other problems.
Source: Getting to Know the CBA Episode 17 - Arbitration

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Not that I would expect them to do either but what options are open to the Jets if they decide they just want to get his salary off the books at the earliest opportunity? I assume a trade is fair game under the circumstances but what about simply putting him on waivers for the purpose of sending him to the Moose, where his salary would not count against the cap? Yeah, you run a real risk of losing him for nothing, but at this point the odds are good his playing days are done, at least his effective playing days. Having him claimed could be the best possible outcome. Can a player in his situation be waived and sent down? Or does this whole affair result in some interminable (yeah yeah don't take it literally) limbo from which there is no extrication other than to see it play out to the bitter end?

 

[Gm0ney]

Not that I would expect them to do either but what options are open to the Jets if they decide they just want to get his salary off the books at the earliest opportunity? I assume a trade is fair game under the circumstances but what about simply putting him on waivers for the purpose of sending him to the Moose, where his salary would not count against the cap? Yeah, you run a real risk of losing him for nothing, but at this point the odds are good his playing days are done, at least his effective playing days. Having him claimed could be the best possible outcome. Can a player in his situation be waived and sent down? Or does this whole affair result in some interminable (yeah yeah don't take it literally) limbo from which there is no extrication other than to see it play out to the bitter end?

Only $1.075M of Buff's cap hit would be buried if he were assigned to the Moose.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

Only $1.075M of Buff's cap hit would be buried if he were assigned to the Moose.

Well, that's annoying. Alright, trade it is. Get this over with, even if it's for a late round pick.

 

[sting13]

Well, that's annoying. Alright, trade it is. Get this over with, even if it's for a late round pick.

That's not so easy. First teams don't know if he will play and second many teams are up against the cap already, making it hard to take a contract of a guy that they don't know will even play.

 

[cbcwpg]

Not that I would expect them to do either but what options are open to the Jets if they decide they just want to get his salary off the books at the earliest opportunity? I assume a trade is fair game under the circumstances but what about simply putting him on waivers for the purpose of sending him to the Moose, where his salary would not count against the cap? Yeah, you run a real risk of losing him for nothing, but at this point the odds are good his playing days are done, at least his effective playing days. Having him claimed could be the best possible outcome. Can a player in his situation be waived and sent down? Or does this whole affair result in some interminable (yeah yeah don't take it literally) limbo from which there is no extrication other than to see it play out to the bitter end?

There are circumstances where a team can just out right void a players contract .

The NHL has Standard Player Contracts which provide, at paragraph 12, that the team may terminate a player’s contract if the player shall:

(a) fail, refuse, or neglect to obey the Club’s rules governing training and conduct of Players, if such failure, refusal or neglect should constitute a material breach.

(b) fail, refuse or neglect to render his services hereunder or in any other manner materially breach this SPC.

By skipping out on training camp, Buff was in material breach , but the Jets didn't want to go this route obviously hoping that he would be playing again one day. Now that it's gone as far as it has with the outstanding arbitration... I have no idea if the Jets would even be allowed to trade Buff until something is finalized re: the whole end of season medicals and arbitration hearing.

 

[jetsfan15]

Well, that's annoying. Alright, trade it is. Get this over with, even if it's for a late round pick.

I don’t think any team would even make that trade right now given all the uncertainty surrounding Buff’s situation and his future.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

I don’t think any team would even make that trade right now given all the uncertainty surrounding Buff’s situation and his future.

Where's Chiarelli when you really need him?

 

[Chewmasey]

So if an arbitration case can take up to 18 months to come to a decision, what happens if he is willing to come back say in a month or 2?
Can he still play while an arbitration case is ongoing? Weird situation.

 

[Jimmyjets]

So if an arbitration case can take up to 18 months to come to a decision, what happens if he is willing to come back say in a month or 2?
Can he still play while an arbitration case is ongoing? Weird situation.

Yes he can play while the arbitration case is ongoing. In fact, he's pretty much going to have to come back and play if his case has any chance of succeeding as a broken bone isn't a career ending injury.

The arbitration case is essentially about if he should have been paid this season or not. The arbitrator will look at the CBA, what the Jets did and what Buff did and come to a conclusion. IMO it should be pretty simple and straightforward for them as the CBA is pretty clear about what needs to happen and Buff didn't adhere to any of it. In fact, if the Jets wanted to they could have voided his contract and they would have had a very strong case for doing so.

The outcome of the arbitration will impact the Jets' and Buff's pocketbook (likely just Buff's) and potentially the Jets cap situation (likely not though) but that's it.

He can be traded as he hasn't retired. He can come back to play as soon as he's able. It's all on his health and his desire to continue to play.

 

[10Ducky10]

If Buff loses that it is no problem. If he wins does the salary not go on long-term injured reserve (LTIR)?

 

[Jets 31]

Can some friggen reporter not find out where Buff is apparently skating and at least give a friggen update during this break between games ? This is a joke that now in days with everyone having a phone that we haven't seen any updates or pictures of the guy skating .