Injury Report: Big Buff Discussion

[Larabee]

What do you really think would have happened if he was just on IR instead? Chevy isn't a huge dealer and we're still getting wins.
Also, assuming you still want to win, you should probably want him here if you disagree with his character. I'd happily take Trouba (back) or Marchand or whoever has done irritating things if it'll improve the team.

I’d say your take on current affairs differ from most.

 

[Jets4Life]

What do you really think would have happened if he was just on IR instead? Chevy isn't a huge dealer and we're still getting wins.
Also, assuming you still want to win, you should probably want him here if you disagree with his character. I'd happily take Trouba (back) or Marchand or whoever has done irritating things if it'll improve the team.

Your definition of "getting Wins" is fairly broad. The Jets have been in a nosedive since mid December. The Jets were "getting wins" too in 1980-81. They finished 9-57-14, but they still managed to "get wins."

 

[Jets4Life]

Whether Chipman pays or not, there is no cap hit while Buff in on LTIR. So Chevy could use the cap right now if he got the green light to do so.

That is my concern. Rumor has it that the Winnipeg Jets lost money for the first time since moving from Atlanta, last season. That has to be concerning for a ownership group that was budgeting on being a "middle of the pack" team, in terms of cap space, not spending to the upper limit.

It would be great to spend like Toronto or the Rangers, and fix this problem, but people who want this have no understanding of the economics of a small market NHL club. We will just have to weather the storm, and continue to focus on drafting and developing players, which has worked for us in the past decade.

 

[tbcwpg]

That is my concern. Rumor has it that the Winnipeg Jets lost money for the first time since moving from Atlanta, last season. That has to be concerning for a ownership group that was budgeting on being a "middle of the pack" team, in terms of cap space, not spending to the upper limit.

It would be great to spend like Toronto or the Rangers, and fix this problem, but people who want this have no understanding of the economics of a small market NHL club. We will just have to weather the storm, and continue to focus on drafting and developing players, which has worked for us in the past decade.

The lost money thing is misleading. Forbes is the source, which isn't necessarily the most reliable place to get this info. There are a lot of reasons why a loss may appear on the statements but the company is just fine overall.

I don't know one way or the other, and they may well be losing money, but I don't think we should be worried over a Forbes article.

 

[Jets4Life]

The lost money thing is misleading. Forbes is the source, which isn't necessarily the most reliable place to get this info. There are a lot of reasons why a loss may appear on the statements but the company is just fine overall.

I don't know one way or the other, and they may well be losing money, but I don't think we should be worried over a Forbes article.

I would not be at all surprised if the Jets failed to make a profit last year. They were at the cap ceiling, and only hosted 3 playoff games. The Jets ownership group even said themselves that they would be a "middle of the pack" team, in terms of spending on the cap. Last year, they spent right to the cap ceiling to hope for a long playoff run.

You have to keep in mind that when the Jets returned in 2011, the salary cap was $20 million less, and the CDN dollar was on par with the US dollar.

 

[GNP]

I would not be at all surprised if the Jets failed to make a profit last year. They were at the cap ceiling, and only hosted 3 playoff games. The Jets ownership group even said themselves that they would be a "middle of the pack" team, in terms of spending on the cap. Last year, they spent right to the cap ceiling to hope for a long playoff run.

You have to keep in mind that when the Jets returned in 2011, the salary cap was $20 million less, and the CDN dollar was on par with the US dollar.

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I was reading an interesting article about Mario Lemieux wanting to sell the Penguins to a party that offered quite a lot of money. Mario could not accept the deal and sell, because his partner had majority ownership or voting rights -- "or both have to agree to an offer."

The article went on to say that Lemieux said that the Penguins only make money if they "make the playoffs" and have that playoff money come in.

It's important to understand -- where the "real money" is in ownership--and it's not on the cash flow side from year to year. Where the money is made-- is the increasing value of franchises to buy in. In other words the principal value of the franchise itself.

For example -- Chipman and the Jets bought their franchise at $ 160 million I believe, and it's worth -- $ 500 million today -- which is what Seattle just bought in for. That's the NHL franchise market value now.

So the Jets "real profit" is $ 500 mil --less -- $ 160 mil = $ 340 million, which covers a lot of annual operating losses. If the franchises were going backwards in value and losing money -- like Lemieux thought they would soon start to -- then you'd see a lot of owners dumping their franchises, because they'd go broke in a hurry.

Although I believe this to be 100 % correct -- I also think all team franchises would like to turn an anuual operating profit on the cash flow side of the ledger --and get it "both ways."

 

[Whileee]

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I was reading an interesting article about Mario Lemieux wanting to sell the Penguins to a party that offered quite a lot of money. Mario could not accept the deal and sell, because his partner had majority ownership or voting rights -- "or both have to agree to an offer."

The article went on to say that Lemieux said that the Penguins only make money if they "make the playoffs" and have that playoff money come in.

It's important to understand -- where the "real money" is in ownership--and it's not on the cash flow side from year to year. Where the money is made-- is the increasing value of franchises to buy in. In other words the principal value of the franchise itself.

For example -- Chipman and the Jets bought their franchise at $ 160 million I believe, and it's worth -- $ 500 million today -- which is what Seattle just bought in for. That's the NHL franchise market value now.

So the Jets "real profit" is $ 500 mil --less -- $ 160 mil = $ 340 million, which covers a lot of annual operating losses. If the franchises were going backwards in value and losing money -- like Lemieux thought they would soon start to -- then you'd see a lot of owners dumping their franchises, because they'd go broke in a hurry.

Although I believe this to be 100 % correct -- I also think all team franchises would like to turn an anuual operating profit on the cash flow side of the ledger --and get it "both ways."

Many NHL franchises are tightly woven into a larger corporate structure, each with their own balance sheets. I think the NHL franchise is often making money for other aligned businesses, even if they are operating at a bit of a deficit. The Jets / TNSE are an example.

 

[Jets4Life]

_________________________________________________

I was reading an interesting article about Mario Lemieux wanting to sell the Penguins to a party that offered quite a lot of money. Mario could not accept the deal and sell, because his partner had majority ownership or voting rights -- "or both have to agree to an offer."

The article went on to say that Lemieux said that the Penguins only make money if they "make the playoffs" and have that playoff money come in.

It's important to understand -- where the "real money" is in ownership--and it's not on the cash flow side from year to year. Where the money is made-- is the increasing value of franchises to buy in. In other words the principal value of the franchise itself.

For example -- Chipman and the Jets bought their franchise at $ 160 million I believe, and it's worth -- $ 500 million today -- which is what Seattle just bought in for. That's the NHL franchise market value now.

So the Jets "real profit" is $ 500 mil --less -- $ 160 mil = $ 340 million, which covers a lot of annual operating losses. If the franchises were going backwards in value and losing money -- like Lemieux thought they would soon start to -- then you'd see a lot of owners dumping their franchises, because they'd go broke in a hurry.

Although I believe this to be 100 % correct -- I also think all team franchises would like to turn an anuual operating profit on the cash flow side of the ledger --and get it "both ways."

To be precise, TNSE purchased the Thrashers for $170 million, and the team is now worth $420 million, so the owners have made quite a tidy profit. I guess if you look at it, many teams lose money on an annual basis. Florida, Phoenix, Islanders, Carolina, and others have been bleeding red ink for years. The original Jets only made money for two seasons, IIRC. I can see franchise value being more important than losing a few million/year, but I would imagine TNSE would either like to break even, or turn a small profit on an annual basis.

 

[GNP]

Good post Jets4Life --and it doesn't matter if the Jets bought in for $ 160 million or $ 170 --what matters is the principal value of the franchise has gone "way up" every year since they bought in. I think you know what I mean -- but thanks for the correction.

As someone who has owned a lot of real estate --I'm no so concerned about year to year operating profits, as much as I am on the long term "equity gain " in the asset. Real estate always goes up with inflation, and other factors --so I'm a long term thinker. ( not short term)

With that being said --I like to make it both ways, and I'm sure the Jets would as well --especially being a smaller franchise-- just as you say, and I totally agree with you.

You are right about the teams you've mentioned, but a lot of those owners --like the Florida owner are billionares ( hedge fund owner) - and Chipman is not in that financial class of an owner -- but he's well off, and has done a great job of managing our smaller franchise IMO.

 

[Jets 31]

This is so coming from a guy who had Buff on his top 3 favourite player list. Hope he comes back and can get a few games in before the trade deadline.......Then ship to off..... The way he has handled this has pissed me off so I no longer want him around....He has burned a year for the entire team with his selfish behaviour leaving the orginization in no man's land.

I'm also a big Buff fan but i want to hear Buff's side of the story before i get pissed at Buff . I am a fan of the Winnipeg Jets first and foremost though and if Buff did something goofy i won't be happy with Buff . If Buff comes back 100% he is exactly what this team needs though .

 

[kanadalainen]

The lost money thing is misleading. Forbes is the source, which isn't necessarily the most reliable place to get this info. .

This is an incredibly polite way to put it. Forbes has become a shadow of its former self.

 

[kanadalainen]

I'm also a big Buff fan but i want to hear Buff's side of the story before i get pissed at Buff . I am a fan of the Winnipeg Jets first and foremost though and if Buff did something goofy i won't be happy with Buff . If Buff comes back 100% he is exactly what this team needs though .

As the season wears on, my patience with his "goofiness" wears very thin. Its becoming very annoying. I *love* the player - make no mistake, he's a super freak -> but holy mother of moses, stawp with the stupidity already.

 

[lanky]

a lot of those owners --like the Florida owner are billionares ( hedge fund owner) - and Chipman is not in that financial class of an owner

David Thompson is in that financial class.

 

[GNP]

David Thompson is in that financial class.

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David Thompson owns Osmington Holdings, which "maybe" has a 10 % stake in the Jets ?? -- no more than that. Thompson is not the Salvation Army and is not going to throw money in to subsidize Jet's losses.

I believe Osmington has a large larger percentage ownership in the MTS Center --as he was the one that sold it to Chipman, but I think it's only 15 % from what I have read.

This has been talked about on here before. It would be nice if Thompson was a 50 -50 owner in the Jets, like a lot of people think, but that's just not the case.

The Jets are doing fine financially --irregardless of this. Once you start to see the arena "half empty " for home games -big red warning flag, as the Jet's cannot afford this. I don't think this will happen, as Chipman has great people around him.

You are right though -- David Thompson is in that financial class -- no doubt about it.

 

[SCP Guy]

What do you really think would have happened if he was just on IR instead? Chevy isn't a huge dealer and we're still getting wins.
Also, assuming you still want to win, you should probably want him here if you disagree with his character. I'd happily take Trouba (back) or Marchand or whoever has done irritating things if it'll improve the team.

If he would have reported in August like he was contractually obligated to do... .he could have told team I don't feel right can't play need surgery (after 4 months of resting more rest isn't going to help) He could have had surgery then and be back in the lineup now helping a team that is in DESPERATE need of a player with his abilities .... Instead he is weeks away and we are falling out of a playoff spot push fast. Oh wait he still wants to get paid his full 7+ Mil contract this year? He did his teammates and the orginization dirty this year ....... This is only IMO as not all info has been made public from both sides.(Buffs camp could come out with info saying he has requested surgery since last March and team doctors have not agreed, I doubt it but who knows for sure) ... But this is how I currently feel.

 

[sting13]

That is a possibility as Byfuglien is under contract for next season.

The question would be if he doesn't come back and they rule in the Jets favour would he still owe two more years.

 

[blues10]

Perhaps there should be a different thread for the Jets bottom line as it pertains to the Thomson, Forbes etc...

The Buff contract clearly has many moving parts at this time.

As for the Jets bottom line. They have been getting league revenue sharing since the 3rd season. Chipman has stated as much in the past.

Here is an example of how it works

Teams receive revenue sharing if they qualify for it under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement. One NHL executive said that, generally speaking, the way NHL revenue sharing works is that the teams that finish in the top 10 in revenues share some of those revenues with the teams that finish from 11 through 31. This isn’t always the case, but it appears to be a general rule. He said the Flames will not have finished in the top 10 in 2016-17 and are not in the bottom 10 either. That means they will receive somewhere in the neighbourhood of $1 million-$2 million at the upper end and $10 million-$12 million if they are down around 20.
The Flames probably did receive revenue sharing last season

As a STH I have been a big complainer about STH paying full price for 4 pre-season games. In essence this allows the Jets to get full revenues from 45 home games or if you want to say 41 home games and 4 playoff games where they maintained regular season prices for round 1 (Arizona and other teams have maintained regular season prices through round 1). It is really an important part of TNSE''s business model.

We are certainly small market and Buff's $7.5 million is important to the organization but I'm sure they would gladly pay it to see Buff return to the back end. I would go far as to say it may even help spike some ticket sales.

Here is hoping that the big guy can return to the ice for the remainder of his contract.

 

[larmex99]

FWIW The Jets do not own the arena, Chipman and his investors own it. Remove the Jet’s income from the arena and you have an interesting situation regarding profitability. My guess is that Chipman and his investors are doing just fine.......as they should be.

 

[GNP]

FWIW The Jets do not own the arena, Chipman and his investors own it. Remove the Jet’s income from the arena and you have an interesting situation regarding profitability. My guess is that Chipman and his investors are doing just fine.......as they should be.

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Yes --your so right Larmex --remove the Jet's income from the arena, and you have a large piece of real estate that cannot support itself. I think the Jet's are doing fine though, and good to see that since they returned to Winnipeg, it's just about sold out every night. I like seeing that --and don't worry about their longevity here.

 

[blues10]

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Yes --your so right Larmex --remove the Jet's income from the arena, and you have a large piece of real estate that cannot support itself. I think the Jet's are doing fine though, and good to see that since they returned to Winnipeg, it's just about sold out every night. I like seeing that --and don't worry about their longevity here.

The Bell MTS was doing fine before the Jets with the Moose as the #1 tenant and would likely do fine without the Jets with the Moose again as the #1 tenant. Opens up more concert dates and many people would have much more disposible income with the Jets gone.

I am sure the Jets make a very nice long term tenant and I certainly do not see relocation on the horizon but Bell MTS is not reliant on them as a tenant. The building was up and running very successfully for 7-8 years before the Jets.

Let's also not forget that the large majority of arena upgrades and maintenance are being paid for by TNSE's share of the gaming revenues from the Shark Club.

As for Buff I wonder if he likes the Shark Club?

 

[larmex99]

The Bell MTS was doing fine before the Jets with the Moose as the #1 tenant and would likely do fine without the Jets with the Moose again as the #1 tenant. Opens up more concert dates and many people would have much more disposible income with the Jets gone.

I am sure the Jets make a very nice long term tenant and I certainly do not see relocation on the horizon but Bell MTS is not reliant on them as a tenant. The building was up and running very successfully for 7-8 years before the Jets.

Let's also not forget that the large majority of arena upgrades and maintenance are being paid for by TNSE's share of the gaming revenues from the Shark Club.

As for Buff I wonder if he likes the Shark Club?

I think you are correct that they were doing fine without the Jets but wrong that it wouldn’t be a huge negative if they lost them. It is a guaranteed sellout (more or less) for a lot of evenings.

It is a guess but I think they owners wanted multiple revenue streams to solidify their ability to keep the Jets in Winnipeg if things got tough. They seem to have achieved that goal.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

This is so coming from a guy who had Buff on his top 3 favourite player list. Hope he comes back and can get a few games in before the trade deadline.......Then ship to off..... The way he has handled this has pissed me off so I no longer want him around....He has burned a year for the entire team with his selfish behaviour leaving the orginization in no man's land.

I can't get too mad at Buff without knowing the whole story. Your take could certainly be accurate but I would want to hear his side of it. If he comes back with his heart in the game, I will cheer for him as much as ever.

But OTOH, I have been toying with the idea of having him put on my jersey. I know that as soon as I do that he will be traded or retired. That's why I haven't put my favourite player's name on there so far.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Can this ugly mess drag into next season as well?

I sure as hell hope not!

I'm wondering why this is taking so long. I probably know the answer - lawyers. But still, this is dragging out too far.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Take my rumour for what it's worth, Buff himself told a mutual friend he was coming back. *Shrug*

What kind of track record does this mutual friend have?

Hope this is true. I've still never seen Buff play, live.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

There’s a point when 7.5 million bucks are involved.

Actually 8 mil for this season.