TSN: Bettman discusses LeBreton Flats, flatly denies Senators relocation question

[solidprospect]

Then resolve the paradox you have presented in these two posts.

A state of anxiety over actual or potential problems

 

[solidprospect]

[QDP]
Is that what's bothering you or is it hearing that the team isn't relocating, moving or selling and that we're going through a rebuild like every other team does?Which happens to be exactly what I've been saying all along. So I can't imagine what you think I'm insecure about when you're the one believing things that are not true.

How many more people have to acknowldge we're rebuilding and at what stature?

 

[Liver King]

Firing Dorion (at this point) would be a mistake under Melnyk. Melnyk isn't bringing in an experienced (costly) GM. He'll bring in another inexperienced yes man he can control.

All the big trades have already been made. We are loaded with draft picks. At least with Dorion, his strength is his scouting background. It doesn't make much sense to have kept Dorion for the last year and a half, have him overseen the part of GMing he doesn't excel at (everything other than scouting), and then fire him for another dollar bin option right when we are actually in a position with multiple 1st/2nd/3rd round picks over the next three drafts to benefit the most from having someone in charge with a strong scouting background.

With that said, it wouldn't surprise me one bit of Melnyk fires Dorion in the summer. I think if COL gets the #1 pick, he's going to fire Dorion.

this is the same horrendous logic horrible companies and there decision makers use to justify shit decisions.

firing Dorion is 100% the right play.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

Good teams don't miss the playoffs because of a gm or coach. We probably missed because they were not that good of a team.

Bad teams miss the playoffs. Teams that miss the playoffs are either poorly built or poorly coached. A bad team is often an indication of a bad gm and/or a bad coach.

Dorion is a bad gm and boucher was a bad coach. Dorion built a bad team and boucher poorly coached it.

 

[Adele Dazeem]

There's no way the Senators will ever be relocated as long as Ottawa is the capital of Canada.
Can you imagine the awkwardness, let alone the bad press, of having Canada's capital not having a team.
It would be sacrilegious.

 

[DrEasy]

There's no way the Senators will ever be relocated as long as Ottawa is the capital of Canada.
Can you imagine the awkwardness, let alone the bad press, of having Canada's capital not having a team.
It would be sacrilegious.

Canada's capital doesn't have a single all-year direct flight to continental Europe.
Canada's capital can barely afford two tram lines. Canada's capital can't implement real-time tracking of its trams on its current single line.
Canada's capital can't make a AA baseball team viable.
Nothing sacrilegious in Canada's capital, and I don't take anything for granted here.

 

[CanadianHockey]

The team went to the ECF and then saw MacArthur and Methot leave with management not even considering replacing them with equal or even similar talent.

The team showed no commitment to the players that took them three rounds and lined the teams coffers.

The players saw management ignore obvious signs the coaches message had gone stale, and his tactics had been figured out.

They then saw a teammate traded who openly stated he believed the GM and hockey ops wanted to keep him, but ownership had other ideas.

The reason the team has troubles retaining players runs far, far, far deeper than lost games.

Going a few years back, Alfie also left because ownership was unwilling to pay him. It's not hard to imagine why Karlsson and co would give up on Melnyk after watching that and seeing Turris shipped out over an impending extension.

 

[Micklebot]

[QDP]
Is that what's bothering you or is it hearing that the team isn't relocating, moving or selling and that we're going through a rebuild like every other team does?Which happens to be exactly what I've been saying all along. So I can't imagine what you think I'm insecure about when you're the one believing things that are not true.

How many more people have to acknowldge we're rebuilding and at what stature?

You seemed to be nitpicking on the most pedantic of points.

Nobody disagrees that we, and other teams before us, are trading off players for futures which will be used to draft and trade for a future team. What people are taking issue with is why we've decided to go that route, and why we elected to trade the players we elected to trade, along with which actions/inactions got us to this point.

People are saying it's not a rebuild, not because we aren't going to use picks to build a new future team, but because the actions of this team appear not to have been made for on ice hockey reasons. The argument is that the vast majority if not all GMs in this league would have been happy to build around Stone, Karlsson, Duchene as their vets, particularly with a solid group of prospects in Chabot, Tkachuk, Brown, Batherson ect.

So you can argue that this is a rebuild like any other team would do, but it's patently obvious that other teams would have taken a different path then this team has, and that's what people are complaining about. There's no panic, another strawman, just criticism of poor decisions that aren't in the best interest of the on-ice product, whether short or long term.

 

[bert]

I think you just want star players here but with no ties to actually winning anything because we had both of them and weren't winning for many different seasons.

This is so pointless.

They are 'rebuilding' without their first round pick. Use your brain. Its not a rebuild its a fiscally motivated fire sale.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Firing Dorion (at this point) would be a mistake under Melnyk. Melnyk isn't bringing in an experienced (costly) GM. He'll bring in another inexperienced yes man he can control.

All the big trades have already been made. We are loaded with draft picks. At least with Dorion, his strength is his scouting background. It doesn't make much sense to have kept Dorion for the last year and a half, have him overseen the part of GMing he doesn't excel at (everything other than scouting), and then fire him for another dollar bin option right when we are actually in a position with multiple 1st/2nd/3rd round picks over the next three drafts to benefit the most from having someone in charge with a strong scouting background.

With that said, it wouldn't surprise me one bit of Melnyk fires Dorion in the summer. I think if COL gets the #1 pick, he's going to fire Dorion.

But....how much of that is Dorion, and how much of it is the result of our scouting department (and the scouts that have already left)?

That's the tricky part.

 

[bert]

But....how much of that is Dorion, and how much of it is the result of our scouting department (and the scouts that have already left)?

That's the tricky part.

Scouts that identified Chabot and Kalrsson are gone.

 

[branch]

Bettman says we're not relocating and going through ebbs and flows that other teams go through, which is exactly what i've been saying all along. I'm not the one with insecurities trying to prove things to people that once again, are not true .

Relocating

Have you read my list yet? Pretty good ebb!

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Scouts that identified Chabot and Kalrsson are gone.

....well damn.

The only thing worse than being in the basement, is having a team that can't take advantage of the draft. I hope whatever new scouts we have can match the miracles of the ones that left, otherwise we are in deep trouble.

 

[JD1]

Scouts that identified Chabot and Kalrsson are gone.

Was it not Dorion that encouraged Murray to trade up to acquire Karlsson?

 

[RaMai]

....well damn.

The only thing worse than being in the basement, is having a team that can't take advantage of the draft. I hope whatever new scouts we have can match the miracles of the ones that left, otherwise we are in deep trouble.

We are already, don't have to wait and see how the draft(s) go.

 

[branch]

Was it not Dorion that encouraged Murray to trade up to acquire Karlsson?

No. Anders Forsberg persuaded Murray. He is with another team now.

 

[JD1]

You seemed to be nitpicking on the most pedantic of points.

Nobody disagrees that we, and other teams before us, are trading off players for futures which will be used to draft and trade for a future team. What people are taking issue with is why we've decided to go that route, and why we elected to trade the players we elected to trade, along with which actions/inactions got us to this point.

People are saying it's not a rebuild, not because we aren't going to use picks to build a new future team, but because the actions of this team appear not to have been made for on ice hockey reasons. The argument is that the vast majority if not all GMs in this league would have been happy to build around Stone, Karlsson, Duchene as their vets, particularly with a solid group of prospects in Chabot, Tkachuk, Brown, Batherson ect.

So you can argue that this is a rebuild like any other team would do, but it's patently obvious that other teams would have taken a different path then this team has, and that's what people are complaining about. There's no panic, another strawman, just criticism of poor decisions that aren't in the best interest of the on-ice product, whether short or long term.

Patently obvious is an interesting phrase

When people have different points of view, their notions of what is patently obvious are different

That should be patently obvious no?

 

[JD1]

No. Anders Forsberg persuaded Murray. He is with another team now.

Pretty sure i heard on 1200 this week it was Dorion

 

[umma gumma]

Pretty sure i heard on 1200 this week it was Dorion

Swede 'shocked' Sens called his name

It was Forsberg.

 

[NorthCoast]

Ya and at the same time I don't think anyone is trying to say we were some kind of powerhouse because we weren't, we were a bubble playoff team. But we had one of the best players in the world on the team and our other top players like Stone were improving every year. Being so quick to dismantle things never made sense to anyone, except I guess Melnyk.

I would bet if the team was kept together, plus you infuse some pieces like Batherson and Brown into more sheltered roles starting next year, and you have one of Karlsson or Chabot basically on the ice all game then we'd have all the makings of a cup contender.

Totally agree.

As a small market we can afford 2-3 elite players, a few mid-priced secondary scorers, and the rest must be high impact grinder and rookies.

When you get to that point you ride those 2-3 elites players while exchanging the pieces around them. Ala Washington, Chicago, Pittsburg, etc. etc.

Don't like one of your 2-3 elite players? Then trade then 1-1 for another elite player. Ala Suban, Jones, Hall, etc.

When your elite players are no longer elite do you go into rebuild? No. Because you may have elite rookies coming in to replace them. Ala Detroit.

Only when you have a core that is no longer elite and no rookies lined up to replace them should you go into a rebuild.


Rebuild is a valid option. But based on what other successful teams have done, it should be the last option.

 

[bert]

Was it not Dorion that encouraged Murray to trade up to acquire Karlsson?

Karlsson was identified by the swedish scout who informed Dorion of the player. So in a way yes as he would have ended up watching him as head scout. But the amateur scout who found kalrsson is no longer with the organization.

 

[NorthCoast]

This is so pointless.

They are 'rebuilding' without their first round pick. Use your brain. Its not a rebuild its a fiscally motivated fire sale.

Even if we ignore the reasons why we are here, still can't call it a rebuild.

If I ask someone to tear down my house, and rebuild it, but they only rebuild the first floor, then suggest that it needs to be torn down and rebuilt again...the term "re-build" becomes very misleading, as "build" indicates the completion of something, when it actually never was completed to begin with.


Maybe we need a different vernacular: partial rebuild, practice rebuild, junior rebuild, unfinished rebuild, rebuilding-ish...

 

[Engineer]

Canada's capital doesn't have a single all-year direct flight to continental Europe.
Canada's capital can barely afford two tram lines. Canada's capital can't implement real-time tracking of its trams on its current single line.
Canada's capital can't make a AA baseball team viable.
Nothing sacrilegious in Canada's capital, and I don't take anything for granted here.

I don't follow how these replies are relatable to NHL hockey.
Flight paths are determined by demand, we already have two major airports in Toronto and Montreal, and unsurprisingly there is a lot more large businesses in those cities, if there were more people flying connections from Ottawa to Europe, direct flights would start appearing.
That is a tax/city issue unrelated to pro sports
You're right, a AA baseball team wasn't viable, that's a completely different sport and much less part of our culture, especially during the 90s and 00s

I don't agree with "sacrilege" as an argument, practically ever, but it would be quite devastating to lose an NHL level pro-hockey franchise in the capital of the country where hockey is our national winter sport.

 

[topshelf15]

[QDP]
Is that what's bothering you or is it hearing that the team isn't relocating, moving or selling and that we're going through a rebuild like every other team does?Which happens to be exactly what I've been saying all along. So I can't imagine what you think I'm insecure about when you're the one believing things that are not true.

How many more people have to acknowldge we're rebuilding and at what stature?

Rebuilding is fine,its the reasoning and the actual end result..That people take issue with.The team has been in a state of perpetual rebuilding and making lucky or small gains.But only to start the process all over again when key elements that could facilitate a championship team are moved ,to keep costs at at the bottom of the league... For the last 5 or so seasons

 

[Micklebot]

Q

Patently obvious is an interesting phrase

When people have different points of view, their notions of what is patently obvious are different

That should be patently obvious no?

Sure, i was being hyperbolic. Perhaps i should have said historically very few teams if any have chosen a similar path in our situation.