Best case scenario if Pietrangelo walks

[simon IC]

Yep. The Faulk hate is completely irrational.

There is nothing irrational about it. Faulk looks lost when he can't join the rush and move the puck up the ice. His passing isn't really that good either. He has a great shot, which on the PP especially, has accounted for most of his goals in the past. He isn't very good defensively. For every one solid defensive play, he makes two glaring errors. He is good at defending one on one, but has difficulty understanding his role in a five-man unit. He is essentially a rover. Prior to coming to St. Louis, he spent his entire career in Carolina, who utilize a man to man defensive system. It is not surprising he has difficulty adapting to the Blues zone coverage system, because man to man is all he has ever played. He is simply a bad fit, and IMO, should never have been targeted in the first place. I have been very negative about Faulk, I admit, but I have always backed up my opinion. Calling the (admittedly constant) criticism of Faulk irrational hate is getting a bit tired.

 

[Brian39]

Can Brodie play that type of role anymore? Would making a move for OEL make sense on any level? In a truly ideal world, we traded for Skjei instead of Faulk and were able to extend Pietrangelo.

I won't give the Blues a dime of my money until Army is gone if they won't give Petro $8.5-9M for 8 years and then bring in OEL at $8.25M for 7 years. That would be an absolute travesty.

 

[TruBlu]

Faulk hasn't even had an opportunity to prove himself and it appears many people have written him off. This board is crazy sometimes with the drastic swings in emotion. For all the talk of people living up to their contracts, who currently on this team has lived up to the money they are making? I'd argue only Petro, and he's probably not going to live up to what he's going to get if he stays. At least give Faulk time to prove to us he's no different.

 

[Ranksu]

Faulk hasn't even had an opportunity to prove himself and it appears many people have written him off. This board is crazy sometimes with the drastic swings in emotion. For all the talk of people living up to their contracts, who currently on this team has lived up to the money they are making? I'd argue only Petro, and he's probably not going to live up to what he's going to get if he stays. At least give Faulk time to prove to us he's no different.

Im fine with Faulk how bad he's. Only problem is that he get paid like he's top2 dmen and not like what he should deserved 3rd pair dmen.

He's paid almost 4mill.$ too much what he's worth.

Faulk should get Shattenkirk deal. By-out and get new start at new Team at 700k

Shattery will get next better contract. Hopefully we could get him someway and dump Faulk away.

I would take Shattenkirk on my team any day of week compare to Faulk, but looks like we're stuck with Faulk. Nobody doesn't want to touch on that contract. Have to cross fingers and hope he could overperform in his level. Its really hard to sheltered him if Pietro is gone.

Somebody said Faulk was our best dmen at this post-season, well his performance did get us deep run, eh?

Wasn't Parayko had covid-19, played not 100%. Pietro wasn't normal level at all. Dunn was maybe the worst dmen. So yes you could say Faulk played well when others played horrendous playoffs. Even shit starts to shine when you polish it enough

 

[BlueDream]

Faulk hasn't even had an opportunity to prove himself and it appears many people have written him off. This board is crazy sometimes with the drastic swings in emotion. For all the talk of people living up to their contracts, who currently on this team has lived up to the money they are making? I'd argue only Petro, and he's probably not going to live up to what he's going to get if he stays. At least give Faulk time to prove to us he's no different.

Wait what? You think Pietrangelo is the only person on this team that has been worth their contract?

Well that’s certainly an...odd take.

 

[simon IC]

Im fine with Faulk how bad he's. Only problem is that he get paid like he's top2 dmen and not like what he should deserved 3rd pair dmen.

He's paid almost 4mill.$ too much what he's worth.

Faulk should get Shattenkirk deal. By-out and get new start at new Team at 700k

Shattery will get next better contract. Hopefully we could get him someway and dump Faulk away.

I would take Shattenkirk on my team any day of week compare to Faulk, but looks like we're stuck with Faulk. Nobody doesn't want to touch on that contract. Have to cross fingers and hope he could overperform in his level. Its really hard to sheltered him if Pietro is gone.

Somebody said Faulk was our best dmen at this post-season, well his performance did get us deep run, eh?

Wasn't Parayko had covid-19, played not 100%. Pietro wasn't normal level at all. Dunn was maybe the worst dmen. So yes you could say Faulk played well when others played horrendous playoffs. Even shit starts to shine when you polish it enough

Faulk had about 5 periods of good play in our bubble playoffs. Outside of that, he was making defensive gaffes all over the place, but to be fair, so were all of our defensemen. If Faulk was our best defenseman in the playoffs, I would say that is setting the bar pretty low.

 

[Celtic Note]

Faulk hasn't even had an opportunity to prove himself and it appears many people have written him off. This board is crazy sometimes with the drastic swings in emotion. For all the talk of people living up to their contracts, who currently on this team has lived up to the money they are making? I'd argue only Petro, and he's probably not going to live up to what he's going to get if he stays. At least give Faulk time to prove to us he's no different.

If you haven’t been a good defender for almost the entirety of your career, I have a hard time expecting you to become one at 27-28 years old.

His offense certainly has potential, as this was one of his worst statistical seasons in his career. However, he is nearing that age where offensive defensemen start to level off and then decline. So, I doubt we will get a peak offensive Faulk, but one that is more productive than last year.

I’ve read a lot in the past few days about the potential for OEL to improve to his previous level of play as a reason to acquire him. And yet despite the fact that Faulk was arguably our best defenseman in the bubble, so many people are still writing him off as a waste of cap space despite being nearly $2M a year cheaper.

OEL like Faulk is an offensive D. I have never been enamored with his defensive game. He also seems easy to play agains in the playoffs with physicality. He is not the type of player I would want on my team unless I was specifically targeting an offensive defenseman and certainly not at his price tag. If AZ wanted to retain $1M in cap, then things would be more interesting, but also cost more in assets. With Faulk and Dunn already on the team and Perunovich in the pipeline, I don’t believe an offensive D should be our target. Krug was another guy I thought about that was available and he falls under the same category.

I think Faulk and Dunn can cover a good chunk of Petro’s offensive production with increased PP minutes and 5v5 time. So offense is less of a concern for me. What I cannot see being replaced in house is our defensive zone and neutral zone coverage on the defensive side of the puck. If we factor in the loss of JBo too, this is our biggest problem area. Given the Blues style of play and that of most Cup winners, I would gladly error on the side of more defensively responsible guys than offensive ones on defense.

 

[Xanadude]

Faulk's contract is bad overall and he was bad this year. I'm holding out some hope that he can improve his game next year, but yeah, that looks like DA's biggest contract gaffe yet rn.

And as I said earlier in thread, OEL's contract is risky, but if we can't move cap to sign Petro to a comparable deal or he goes chasing a ten figure salary, he's not an unrealistic backup plan to complete our top 4 and we have the option to say bye with the Seattle expansion.

OEL's issues the last few years coincide with a new coach, so I'm also not willing to pronounce his career in a permanent tailspin. From what I've seen of the Yotes, he plays a less physical style of defense and not too long ago was sneaky great, so maybe a change of scenery works for him and we pick up where we left off pre-bubble.

I do agree that the timing of the draft does make this really tough. We'd have to be 100% Petro is walking to even start those negotiations, and I'm guessing Arizona would want Dunn + some sort of cap dump + multiple picks.

 

[The Note]

Short of trading for Seabrook, trading for OEL is about the last thing the Blues should do if Pietrangelo were to walk. As awesome as it sounds to have OEL and Faulk eating up almost $15 million in cap space for the better of part of a decade, I'll pass on that (it gets worse when you factor in Schenn's deal, which brings it up to over $21 million in cap space between the 3 of them). OEL at his prime was overrated, I want no part of the declining version.

And to pivot: here's the thing about the Faulk deal. Will he/can he be better than he was this year? Sure, I would likely say he will be. But at no point in his career would he be worth the deal he has now, much less the back half of his career. For an "offensive defenseman" he hasn't broken 40 points in 6 years, and that is with being spoon fed PP time. His team regularly gets outscored with him on the ice (I understand the Carolina goaltending situation has been atrocious, but even relative to his teammates, his GF/GA numbers are bad). @simon IC did a good job above outlining his defensive shortcomings above, particularly within the context of the Blues system. So basically you're paying a premium for a guy to give you 30-35 points while being "meh" defensively and -unless at age 28 he suddenly becomes a better player than he has at any point in his career - a premium he has never been, and almost definitely never will be, worth.

 

[TruBlu]

Wait what? You think Pietrangelo is the only person on this team that has been worth their contract?

Well that’s certainly an...odd take.

Not really? Who has been worth their money then?

 

[The Note]

Not really? Who has been worth their money then?

I mean excluding ELC guys, Tarasenko and Schwartz have been great value for what they've brought over the years. ROR is a Selke- winning, #1 C making $7.5 a year. Parayko and Perron are both good players who are providing strong contributions based on their cap number. Virtually everyone else is a bottom 6/role player type who is paid appropriately. The Blues have 3 guys who are overpaid at this point and luckily two of them are UFA after next year.

 

[Bluesnatic27]

Not really? Who has been worth their money then?

David Perron is making $4 million a season while producing at a .83 PPG pace the last two years. That's amazing value and well worth the money.

Ryan O'Reilly is being paid $7.5 million a season and has produced at a .90 PPG the last two years while being one of the best defensive players in the NHL both evidenced by his Selke and his underlying metrics. It would be hard to find a similarly paid player that has been as good as O'Reilly.

Jaden Schwartz had a sub-par season last year, but has been a consistent ~55 point player for 3 out of the last 4 years with multiple years where he was on pace for 60+ points in that timeframe. That's well worth $5.35 million a season.

Brayden Schenn has been an absolute machine for the Blues ever since the trade that brought him to the team. He's scored at a .81 PPG average the last three years on the Blues with his lowest scoring season being a 54 point campaign two years ago. Before his recent extension, he had a cap hit of $5.125 million, and a .81 PPG forward paid at that price is well worth that money. Even with his new cap hit at $6.5 million, I would say that point production would still be adequate if he were to keep it up.

This is to only name a few players that you would have a hard time arguing aren't worth the money being paid to them. There are also players like Parayko that have provided high-end value in non-offensive roles. Parayko was arguably the 2nd best defensive defenseman in the league two years ago and is good enough for ~30 points a season. That is a very rare breed of player to find and is worth the $5.5 million despite the lack of "sexy" statistics. Although I would hesitate to give him what he will likely demand when he becomes a FA until that point production goes up.

 

[TruBlu]

I mean excluding ELC guys, Tarasenko and Schwartz have been great value for what they've brought over the years. ROR is a Selke- winning, #1 C making $7.5 a year. Parayko and Perron are both good players who are providing strong contributions based on their cap number. Virtually everyone else is a bottom 6/role player type who is paid appropriately. The Blues have 3 guys who are overpaid at this point and luckily two of them are UFA after next year.

This can't be true. I've seen this board ask for Schwartz to be traded on several occasions in more than one season because he's not producing. Tarasenko hasn't played much the last couple of seasons. Several people didn't want Perron back TWICE! Parayko hasn't turned out how he was supposed to be. many people wanted to toss out Sundquist because he'd proven he was never going to amount to anything. Schenn is apparently not worth the contract he's been given because he's going to be hot shit the last few years of it. ROR has been a godsend, don't get me wrong, but there was massive overpayment to get him here. My point is that Faulk is being written off like a bunch of people have been on this board. The money he was given doesn't necessarily reflect his value as a player as much as it did his value to the organization at the time. He's a good player or he wouldn't be here. No one pulled the wool over DA's eyes. It was most likely a hedge bet against Petro leaving. Maybe he is. We don't know.

 

[Stealth JD]

Faulk hasn't even had an opportunity to prove himself and it appears many people have written him off. This board is crazy sometimes with the drastic swings in emotion. For all the talk of people living up to their contracts, who currently on this team has lived up to the money they are making? I'd argue only Petro, and he's probably not going to live up to what he's going to get if he stays. At least give Faulk time to prove to us he's no different.

This isn’t some rookie we’re talking about...this is a veteran who has struggled with looking like a fit for this organization. The book on Faulk has been written, published and fits about as well as a Pagan-cookbook would in a Christian bookstore. I don’t know what is worse, the criticism of Faulk’s game and the acquisition in general, or the blind faith that he just needs time and and more opportunities to show that his game will miraculously improve.

Is it a coincidence that when Faulk looked ‘decent’ in the playoffs, the rest of the team looked like shit? Probably. But if that level of play is what we’re hoping to see for the next SEVEN years, that doesn’t begin to live up to the contract he was given. It’s a step in the right direction, sure...but it’s still ugly even if his production picks up 50%.

 

[TruBlu]

David Perron is making $4 million a season while producing at a .83 PPG pace the last two years. That's amazing value and well worth the money.

Ryan O'Reilly is being paid $7.5 million a season and has produced at a .90 PPG the last two years while being one of the best defensive players in the NHL both evidenced by his Selke and his underlying metrics. It would be hard to find a similarly paid player that has been as good as O'Reilly.

Jaden Schwartz had a sub-par season last year, but has been a consistent ~55 point player for 3 out of the last 4 years with multiple years where he was on pace for 60+ points in that timeframe. That's well worth $5.35 million a season.

Brayden Schenn has been an absolute machine for the Blues ever since the trade that brought him to the team. He's scored at a .81 PPG average the last three years on the Blues with his lowest scoring season being a 54 point campaign two years ago. Before his recent extension, he had a cap hit of $5.125 million, and a .81 PPG forward paid at that price is well worth that money. Even with his new cap hit at $6.5 million, I would say that point production would still be adequate if he were to keep it up.

This is to only name a few players that you would have a hard time arguing aren't worth the money being paid to them. There are also players like Parayko that have provided high-end value in non-offensive roles. Parayko was arguably the 2nd best defensive defenseman in the league two years ago and is good enough for ~30 points a season. That is a very rare breed of player to find and is worth the $5.5 million despite the lack of "sexy" statistics. Although I would hesitate to give him what he will likely demand when he becomes a FA until that point production goes up.

I agree with almost every thing you posted here.

 

[Brian39]

Not really? Who has been worth their money then?

ROR: $7.5M AAV makes him the 19th highest paid center in the NHL. In his 2 years with the Blues he has won a Conn Smythe, a Selke, has another Selke nomination, 138 points in 153 regular season games, 34 points in 35 playoff games and is unquestionably an average or above average 1C. He is 17th in center scoring during his time as a Blue, so even if you ignore hie elite level defensive play he has produced slightly better than the price of his contract relative to his peers.

Perron: $4M AAV makes him the 146th highest paid NHL forward. He is 71st in forward scoring under that contract, despite missing 25 games due to injury during that 2 year time frame. 25 points in 35 playoff games and he is 27th among forwards in game winning goals in that stretch so let's not act like he is somehow just a low calorie scorer. He is also a low-key pest and might be the best net front presence on the team.

Parayko: $5.5M AAV makes him the 41st highest paid D man in the NHL. The other D making $5.5M are Petry, Goligoski, Stralman and Leddy. Are you really saying that Parayko doesn't belong at or above that group? Parayko is 14th among NHL D men in even strength TOI per game since signing his contract and was top 10 in that stat each of the last 2 years. He led a Cup winner in even strength TOI per game in the playoffs and is included in basically every top 20 NHL D men list written in the last 18 months. Even though his strength is defense, he is 44th in even strength scoring among NHL D men since signing his deal and 47th in scoring overall among NHL D men. His offensive production alone would make him almost worth the contract even if you ignore his fantastic defensive and transition play over the last 3 years.

All 3 of these guys are huge bargains relative to their contract. They were all major contributors to a Cup and even ignoring that have significantly outperformed their contracts. Acting like these 3 haven't even lived up to their contract is a laughably bad opinion and demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge about NHL contracts.

Additionally, Schwartz hasn't been quite as big of a bargain, but he has absolutely lived up to his contract. 207 points in 280 games under his contract, which is a consistent 60 point pace. That puts him 71st in forward scoring over those 4 years, despite missing about 40 games due to injury. At $5.35M AAV, he is outside the top 100 highest paid forwards. He also has 33 points in 46 playoff games under this contract. Again, he's not the bargain that the above 3 are, but he has absolutely lived up to his contract.

Injuries mean that Tarasenko probably won't be worth his $7.5M AAV moving forward. However, he has absolutely been worth his contract to date. Despite missing over a season worth of time due to injury, Tarasenko is 16th in goals over the duration of his contract. He's 11th in goals per game over that stretch (minimum 100 games played since 2015). 7 of the 10 people ahead of him on that list make $8.5M or more. Pastrnak, Laine and Marchand are the other 3 guys. They all make between $6-$7M. Laine is on a 2 year bridge deal signed after a down year with no arbitration rights and the other 2 signed their contracts before they blossomed as goal scorers. Again, Tarasenko hasn't been a bargain and injuries will likely derail his performance. But he has without question lived up to his contract.

Schenn has been a bargain on his contract, but it remains to be seen whether he will live up to the contract that goes into effect next season. Schenn had 182 points in his 225 games with the Blues making $5.125M. That is 27th among NHL centers in that stretch. His new contract makes him the 28th highest paid center in the league next year. So even judging his past performance against his new cap hit and not the money he was actually making, he would be worth it.

"Only Petro has lived up to his contract" is an atrociously bad take. There is an argument to be made that the Blues have gotten better value for their top paid players than any team in the league over the last 3 years. I would be stunned if you could find 5 NHL teams who have a greater percentage of players that lived up to their contracts. We can debate whether Army's decisions since the Cup win have been good or bad. We can argue about overpayments to Faulk and Schenn and we can argue about the term we gave out. But there is no debate about whether Blues players have lived up to their contracts so far. They overwhelmingly have.

 

[BlueDream]

Not really? Who has been worth their money then?

Bruh. The team won a Cup a year ago. Several players have absolutely proven their worth...

 

[TruBlu]

ROR: $7.5M AAV makes him the 19th highest paid center in the NHL. In his 2 years with the Blues he has won a Conn Smythe, a Selke, has another Selke nomination, 138 points in 153 regular season games, 34 points in 35 playoff games and is unquestionably an average or above average 1C. He is 17th in center scoring during his time as a Blue, so even if you ignore hie elite level defensive play he has produced slightly better than the price of his contract relative to his peers.

Perron: $4M AAV makes him the 146th highest paid NHL forward. He is 71st in forward scoring under that contract, despite missing 25 games due to injury during that 2 year time frame. 25 points in 35 playoff games and he is 27th among forwards in game winning goals in that stretch so let's not act like he is somehow just a low calorie scorer. He is also a low-key pest and might be the best net front presence on the team.

Parayko: $5.5M AAV makes him the 41st highest paid D man in the NHL. The other D making $5.5M are Petry, Goligoski, Stralman and Leddy. Are you really saying that Parayko doesn't belong at or above that group? Parayko is 14th among NHL D men in even strength TOI per game since signing his contract and was top 10 in that stat each of the last 2 years. He led a Cup winner in even strength TOI per game in the playoffs and is included in basically every top 20 NHL D men list written in the last 18 months. Even though his strength is defense, he is 44th in even strength scoring among NHL D men since signing his deal and 47th in scoring overall among NHL D men. His offensive production alone would make him almost worth the contract even if you ignore his fantastic defensive and transition play over the last 3 years.

All 3 of these guys are huge bargains relative to their contract. They were all major contributors to a Cup and even ignoring that have significantly outperformed their contracts. Acting like these 3 haven't even lived up to their contract is a laughably bad opinion and demonstrates a fundamental lack of knowledge about NHL contracts.

Additionally, Schwartz hasn't been quite as big of a bargain, but he has absolutely lived up to his contract. 207 points in 280 games under his contract, which is a consistent 60 point pace. That puts him 71st in forward scoring over those 4 years, despite missing about 40 games due to injury. At $5.35M AAV, he is outside the top 100 highest paid forwards. He also has 33 points in 46 playoff games under this contract. Again, he's not the bargain that the above 3 are, but he has absolutely lived up to his contract.

Injuries mean that Tarasenko probably won't be worth his $7.5M AAV moving forward. However, he has absolutely been worth his contract to date. Despite missing over a season worth of time due to injury, Tarasenko is 16th in goals over the duration of his contract. He's 11th in goals per game over that stretch (minimum 100 games played since 2015). 7 of the 10 people ahead of him on that list make $8.5M or more. Pastrnak, Laine and Marchand are the other 3 guys. They all make between $6-$7M. Laine is on a 2 year bridge deal signed after a down year with no arbitration rights and the other 2 signed their contracts before they blossomed as goal scorers. Again, Tarasenko hasn't been a bargain and injuries will likely derail his performance. But he has without question lived up to his contract.

Schenn has been a bargain on his contract, but it remains to be seen whether he will live up to the contract that goes into effect next season. Schenn had 182 points in his 225 games with the Blues making $5.125M. That is 27th among NHL centers in that stretch. His new contract makes him the 28th highest paid center in the league next year. So even judging his past performance against his new cap hit and not the money he was actually making, he would be worth it.

"Only Petro has lived up to his contract" is an atrociously bad take. There is an argument to be made that the Blues have gotten better value for their top paid players than any team in the league over the last 3-5 years. I would be stunned if you could find 5 NHL teams who have a greater percentage of players that lived up to their contracts. We can debate whether Army's decisions since the Cup win have been good or bad. We can argue about overpayments to Faulk and Schenn and we can argue about the term we gave out. But there is no debate about whether Blues players have lived up to their contracts so far. They overwhelmingly have.

I appreciate the work you put into that. I put my post out there to make a point.

 

[TruBlu]

Bruh. The team won a Cup a year ago. Several players have absolutely proven their worth...

I wholeheartedly agree. I was just taking a jab at the forum here. Several posters on here, on several occasions, have advocated for getting rid of many of the players that were on that cup winning team. Allen would have been gone a long time ago, yet he was a part of the team that won it. I'm not a fan of Faulk, Im just saying the guy hasn't had a chance to prove himself here and he's already being labeled. Petro may be gone. Hating him for taking up the captains cap space may not be the reality. Much like with Shatty, DA may know more than we do.

 

[Vektor]

Not really? Who has been worth their money then?

Almost everyone lol

 

[Ranksu]

If you haven’t been a good defender for almost the entirety of your career, I have a hard time expecting you to become one at 27-28 years old.

His offense certainly has potential, as this was one of his worst statistical seasons in his career. However, he is nearing that age where offensive defensemen start to level off and then decline. So, I doubt we will get a peak offensive Faulk, but one that is more productive than last year.
OEL like Faulk is an offensive D. I have never been enamored with his defensive game. He also seems easy to play agains in the playoffs with physicality.

This is really well written about Faulk.

About bolded: Faulk has tried to adjust his game to play more physical. Admirable, but he looks imo more lost. Broken record, but feels like he almost forget how to use defensive stick. Most what irritates Faulk's game is why he lost his guy, doesn't understand play position. Too much puck watching. Almost he tries to play too much and his whole game goes downhill.

Really problematic how Army can handle this Faulk mess?

 

[joe galiba]

A defense without Petro, but with Faulk looks way better than a defense without both
It sure looks like, at this point, that Armstrong knew how the negotiations were going to go

 

[Davimir Tarablad]

This is really well written about Faulk.

About bolded: Faulk has tried to adjust his game to play more physical. Admirable, but he looks imo more lost. Broken record, but feels like he almost forget how to use defensive stick. Most what irritates Faulk's game is why he lost his guy, doesn't understand play position. Too much puck watching. Almost he tries to play too much and his whole game goes downhill.

Really problematic how Army can handle this Faulk mess?

Faulk had the fewest hits in his career, outside of the lockout shortened season.

 

[TruBlu]

This is really well written about Faulk.

About bolded: Faulk has tried to adjust his game to play more physical. Admirable, but he looks imo more lost. Broken record, but feels like he almost forget how to use defensive stick. Most what irritates Faulk's game is why he lost his guy, doesn't understand play position. Too much puck watching. Almost he tries to play too much and his whole game goes downhill.

Really problematic how Army can handle this Faulk mess?

What about the goalie mess? We just got rid of one of the best tandem goalies in the league. Are you still sticking with Husso?

 

[Blueston]

I appreciate the work you put into that. I put my post out there to make a point.

Which was? None seem obvious.