Besides AHL West, What Cities Could Support a Minor League Team?

hkymnky

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Feb 17, 2010
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The other leagues rolled into the ECHL. It wasn't a matter of caliber of play, it was a matter of cities looking for a league to join with their league failing.

Yes and no.

The ECHL chose to absorb the teams from the WCHL and CHL.

There have been other leagues that have come and gone (the AAHL, the MAHL, the EPHL) without the slightest interest from the ECHL. I'm sure many of the communities that lost teams would jump at the chance to have an ECHL franchise...but thats one one part of the equation.

The ECHL chose to the absorb the select WCHL and CHL markets because they felt that they could be successful (ie capable/comparable) members of the league.
 

My Cozen Dylan

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Is 50 a mandated organizational limit? So to expand on this how many players playing on a team, say Orlando actually be signed to a two way contract, thus being property of Toronto? Is it the. Does the Maple Leafs brain trust hire the coach and filling out the roster? Do the three levels of coaching staffs discuss the team needs and progress of the three teams?

50 is currently the max number of contracts an NHL team can hold, and they can have up to 90 players in their organization (I.e unsigned junior/college/Europe guys). This does not count players on AHL only deals.

Orlando is a good example for me (obviously). Last year we had 3-5 guys at any point signed on with either the Iowa Wild or the Marlies. This year, I think we have something like 10 signed to the Marlies playing for us regularly. Currently, the parent club does not dictate coaching hires and player signings for the ECHL Club other than the aforementioned AHL Contract guys. I do not foresee this changing as it would be a whole lot for one GM to manage.

What I could see is more guys signing two-way AHL/ECHL deals than do currently.
 

Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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Is 50 a mandated organizational limit? So to expand on this how many players playing on a team, say Orlando actually be signed to a two way contract, thus being property of Toronto? Is it the. Does the Maple Leafs brain trust hire the coach and filling out the roster? Do the three levels of coaching staffs discuss the team needs and progress of the three teams?

The contract would have to be either a two way or a three way deal. Some contracts allows assignment to the ECHL without player approval, some require player approval. I think those on an ELC do not require player approval to be sent to the ECHL.


50 is currently the max number of contracts an NHL team can hold, and they can have up to 90 players in their organization (I.e unsigned junior/college/Europe guys). This does not count players on AHL only deals.

Orlando is a good example for me (obviously). Last year we had 3-5 guys at any point signed on with either the Iowa Wild or the Marlies. This year, I think we have something like 10 signed to the Marlies playing for us regularly. Currently, the parent club does not dictate coaching hires and player signings for the ECHL Club other than the aforementioned AHL Contract guys. I do not foresee this changing as it would be a whole lot for one GM to manage.

What I could see is more guys signing two-way AHL/ECHL deals than do currently.

AHL only deals have nothing to do with the NHL team even if the NHL team owns the AHL team. A player on an AHL deal with say Manchester can sign an NHL deal with the Rangers if he wanted.

Also, you are assuming that the GM for the NHL team is handling the duties for the AHL team. That is not true in all cases. Many times it is the assistant GM performing that task.

Also, if there is a one to one to one set up then I imagine that the AHL GM would work with the ECHL GM and the NHL GM to determine how many players will be on NHL contracts at each level and how many will be on AHL two way (AHL that can be assigned to the ECHL) and ECHL contracts.
 

My Cozen Dylan

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The contract would have to be either a two way or a three way deal. Some contracts allows assignment to the ECHL without player approval, some require player approval. I think those on an ELC do not require player approval to be sent to the ECHL.




AHL only deals have nothing to do with the NHL team even if the NHL team owns the AHL team. A player on an AHL deal with say Manchester can sign an NHL deal with the Rangers if he wanted.

Also, you are assuming that the GM for the NHL team is handling the duties for the AHL team. That is not true in all cases. Many times it is the assistant GM performing that task.

Also, if there is a one to one to one set up then I imagine that the AHL GM would work with the ECHL GM and the NHL GM to determine how many players will be on NHL contracts at each level and how many will be on AHL two way (AHL that can be assigned to the ECHL) and ECHL contracts.
I don't think I was insinuating any of that.
 

Tommy Hawk

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I don't think I was insinuating any of that.

I think so........

I do not foresee this changing as it would be a whole lot for one GM to manage.

Who is the one GM you are referring to? NHL, AHL or ECHL?

50 is currently the max number of contracts an NHL team can hold, and they can have up to 90 players in their organization (I.e unsigned junior/college/Europe guys). This does not count players on AHL only deals.

AHL deals have zero to do with the NHL team and the ECHL team.
 

My Cozen Dylan

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Who is the one GM you are referring to? NHL, AHL or ECHL?



AHL deals have zero to do with the NHL team and the ECHL team.
I was referring to the NHL GM. But I suppose you are correct in what you said. I should have been clearer.

"This does not count AHL only contracts." I'm agreeing with you on the NHL thing. But they do have to do with the ECHL team as some of the lower level AHL deals go to the ECHL. Plenty of experience here with that with Orlando (Toronto).
 

Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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I was referring to the NHL GM. But I suppose you are correct in what you said. I should have been clearer.

"This does not count AHL only contracts." I'm agreeing with you on the NHL thing. But they do have to do with the ECHL team as some of the lower level AHL deals go to the ECHL. Plenty of experience here with that with Orlando (Toronto).

AHL only contracts are basically a 1 way contract. I agree with you completely that a 30-30-30 alignment will result in changes to contracting with players, especially those without an NHL deal.

If I was the the head of the NHLPA and the PHPA I would really look at revising the number of players allowed on an NHL contract to say 75 or so to include singing three way contracts. You never know when a team like Anaheim is playing in Boston or Montreal and they need to grab an ECHLer to fill a spot on the bench.
 

My Cozen Dylan

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AHL only contracts are basically a 1 way contract.

If I was the the head of the NHLPA and the PHPA I would really look at revising the number of players allowed on an NHL contract to say 75 or so to include singing three way contracts..

The lower ~~50% of AHL Deals are two-way AHL/ECHL.

I'd agree with that.
 

RFA

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Jan 17, 2010
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30-30-30 would spell the death of the ECHL. If people are worried about how much the NHL team cares about their AHL team, the ECHL team would be a farther afterthought. Or further? I don't remember.

Right now the ECHL local guys are playing for contracts/PTO with all 30 AHL clubs. Seems to be much more motivation than being buried on a depth chart.
 

hkymnky

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30-30-30 would spell the death of the ECHL. If people are worried about how much the NHL team cares about their AHL team, the ECHL team would be a farther afterthought. Or further? I don't remember.

Right now the ECHL local guys are playing for contracts/PTO with all 30 AHL clubs. Seems to be much more motivation than being buried on a depth chart.

The reality is that the NHL has been involved with the ECHL for some time now, and with the exception of the Trenton Devils (which were a disaster) the NHL's record when it comes to ECHL franchises has been a positive one. Even if you are only looking at the impact of NHL affiliations (and not ownership) I think the argument could be made that the ECHL is the last AA league standing because of its relationship with the NHL.

Being the official AA league for the NHL and part of a formal 30-30-30 system gives the ECHL access to a level of prestige, resources, and marketing that other minor leagues would be very hard pressed to obtain. Admittedly there are down sides, but the ECHL appears to have made the decision that the positives of getting into a committed relationship with the NHL and AHL far outweigh the negatives.
 

RFA

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Jan 17, 2010
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NHL teams have been sending players to the E for a long time, that's nothing new. I can remember Krys Oliwa being sent there by the Devils and the CD Islanders had an agreement with Richmond I believe it was. I do not know of another attempt of an NHL team to totally run an ECHL team (beside Trenton) though. Are there any?

Increased NHL meddling in the AHL has, in most people's eyes, ruined or at least made the product less enjoyable. The ECHL would stand to lose even more. It's not even like that's where organization go to find players when in need- Devils pulled Mark Fraser and Scott Gomez from doing nothing, Islanders just signed Matt Lashoff from the KHL- Marty Brodeur...etc.

In fairness, Calgary did bring a couple of guys up from the E to Adirondack- Taylor Vause is the big one- who have looked great.

Id say the ECHL-NHL relationship is fine now- but if they start to try to line up teams like in baseball- ouch. Too many other options- (i.e. Europe) and baseball entry level contracts are seven years long.

I think that the AHL would be more entertaining if it were more like the ECHL- independent owners, less NHL brass interference...... don't see it happening soon.
 

Shootmaster_44

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Sep 10, 2005
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The use of an ECHL affiliate is all dependent on how the NHL parent uses their AHL affiliate. Take a team like the Manchester Monarchs, the Kings use it primarily to develop talent. If the team does well, great, but the focus is not on winning the Calder Cup. Thus, there are usually one or two players who are not Kings property on AHL only deals. There are usually a couple Kings property on AHL deals with the understanding that they are on them because there is no room under the 50 contact cap.

Now you compare that with a team like the Hershey Bears. The culture of the Bears was to build Calder Cup Champions. Thus, the Washington Capitals, have allowed them roster spots to do so. Basing on the roster on their Wikipedia page (easier than trying to figure out who is on a Caps and who is on a Bears contract), they 8 players on Hershey only deals.

So what does this do to their ECHL affiliate? It means that the Ontario Reign are basically an affiliate of the Kings in name only and generally carry one Kings goalie, who is generally a project. This year they sent Maxim Kitsyn down too, which is unusual for a skater to be sent to Ontario. This leads to a more stable roster in Ontario, where typically the only roster moves are to improve the Reign.

On the flipside, in Washington's case, it means that their ECHL team is stocked with plenty of Capitals or Hershey Bears contracts. Meaning that their ECHL team will likely see more fluctuation based on the prospects shuffling between DC and Hershey.

So yes a 30-30-30 system may be the goal. But realistically, the ECHL is barely utilized by some NHL teams. So yes it helps the ECHL club with promotions to say the official ECHL affiliate of NHL Team X, but beyond perhaps a goaltending project and the odd visit from the parent's goalie coach, there is little involvement with the ECHL.

Compare that to the baseball system, where I don't believe independent contracts are allowed at all. From the MLB club right down to the Dominican/Venezuelan Summer League Rookie ball teams, every player is under contract with the MLB club. Even if there's a player available that could contribute to say the Rancho Cucamonga Quakes' California League run to the pennant, the Quakes cannot go and sign him, unless their MLB parent team does. Of course, I don't follow MiLB that closely, perhaps Rancho Cucamonga would say we'd like Player X and the Dodgers will acquire said player for them on a one year deal and release one of the players that stink, I'm not totally sure. But at least from my cursory following of the Washington Nationals system, it certainly doesn't appear the MiLB teams have any say in what players get assigned to them. It is 100% developmental, which is how the LA Kings treat the AHL.

In the LA Kings case, on the note about the parent club picking coaches etc. the GM of the Monarchs, has typically been the Assistant GM of the LA Kings. Thus, he does have the ability to hire and fire the AHL coaching staff and I believe when Ron Hextall held the position he did. Of course, being the Kings' Assistant GM means that any Monarchs AHL only deals he signed were likely on the advice of Kings' GM Dean Lombardi. You want your prospects to develop properly, you bring in the right teachers.

You actually find this mentality to an extent with draft choices and the Canadian Hockey League too. I know more than once in the WHL (I don't follow the OHL and QMJHL to know if it is similar), Prospect X's parent team forced him to be traded from a bad WHL team to a good WHL team. I believe just recently that was the case with the Oilers' Leon Draitsil (sp?). I believe they were not intending to send him back to the PA Raiders and forced the Raiders to trade him.

It is also sometimes why superstar Europeans end up in the Canadian Hockey League. I know when Anze Kopitar was drafted, he upset the LA Kings by deciding to stay in Sweden, instead of coming over and playing for the Regina Pats in the WHL, who the Kings promised he would show up. Thus, the Pats selected him in the CHL Import Draft and he never showed up.
 

Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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The use of an ECHL affiliate is all dependent on how the NHL parent uses their AHL affiliate. Take a team like the Manchester Monarchs, the Kings use it primarily to develop talent. If the team does well, great, but the focus is not on winning the Calder Cup. Thus, there are usually one or two players who are not Kings property on AHL only deals. There are usually a couple Kings property on AHL deals with the understanding that they are on them because there is no room under the 50 contact cap.

Now you compare that with a team like the Hershey Bears. The culture of the Bears was to build Calder Cup Champions. Thus, the Washington Capitals, have allowed them roster spots to do so. Basing on the roster on their Wikipedia page (easier than trying to figure out who is on a Caps and who is on a Bears contract), they 8 players on Hershey only deals.

So what does this do to their ECHL affiliate? It means that the Ontario Reign are basically an affiliate of the Kings in name only and generally carry one Kings goalie, who is generally a project. This year they sent Maxim Kitsyn down too, which is unusual for a skater to be sent to Ontario. This leads to a more stable roster in Ontario, where typically the only roster moves are to improve the Reign.

On the flipside, in Washington's case, it means that their ECHL team is stocked with plenty of Capitals or Hershey Bears contracts. Meaning that their ECHL team will likely see more fluctuation based on the prospects shuffling between DC and Hershey.

So yes a 30-30-30 system may be the goal. But realistically, the ECHL is barely utilized by some NHL teams. So yes it helps the ECHL club with promotions to say the official ECHL affiliate of NHL Team X, but beyond perhaps a goaltending project and the odd visit from the parent's goalie coach, there is little involvement with the ECHL.

Compare that to the baseball system, where I don't believe independent contracts are allowed at all. From the MLB club right down to the Dominican/Venezuelan Summer League Rookie ball teams, every player is under contract with the MLB club. Even if there's a player available that could contribute to say the Rancho Cucamonga Quakes' California League run to the pennant, the Quakes cannot go and sign him, unless their MLB parent team does. Of course, I don't follow MiLB that closely, perhaps Rancho Cucamonga would say we'd like Player X and the Dodgers will acquire said player for them on a one year deal and release one of the players that stink, I'm not totally sure. But at least from my cursory following of the Washington Nationals system, it certainly doesn't appear the MiLB teams have any say in what players get assigned to them. It is 100% developmental, which is how the LA Kings treat the AHL.

In the LA Kings case, on the note about the parent club picking coaches etc. the GM of the Monarchs, has typically been the Assistant GM of the LA Kings. Thus, he does have the ability to hire and fire the AHL coaching staff and I believe when Ron Hextall held the position he did. Of course, being the Kings' Assistant GM means that any Monarchs AHL only deals he signed were likely on the advice of Kings' GM Dean Lombardi. You want your prospects to develop properly, you bring in the right teachers.

You actually find this mentality to an extent with draft choices and the Canadian Hockey League too. I know more than once in the WHL (I don't follow the OHL and QMJHL to know if it is similar), Prospect X's parent team forced him to be traded from a bad WHL team to a good WHL team. I believe just recently that was the case with the Oilers' Leon Draitsil (sp?). I believe they were not intending to send him back to the PA Raiders and forced the Raiders to trade him.

It is also sometimes why superstar Europeans end up in the Canadian Hockey League. I know when Anze Kopitar was drafted, he upset the LA Kings by deciding to stay in Sweden, instead of coming over and playing for the Regina Pats in the WHL, who the Kings promised he would show up. Thus, the Pats selected him in the CHL Import Draft and he never showed up.

If the player is on an AHL deal, they are not Kings property, they are Monarchs property and can sign with any nhl team as long as they clear waivers.

Also, the ECHL teams in CA have been used when the call up is needed immediately and they cannot bring someone from their eastern AHL city.

Reverse it and have the ECHL affiliate out east and then if the NHL teams needs an immediate call up they can go to the ECHL team there to get one.

Since the Pacific Division NHL teams play most of their games out west, the need for an emergency call up will have a greater likelihood of occurring when the team is playing out west.

Placing their AHL team out west means their primary emergency call up comes form the AHL rather than the ECHL and their oh crap call up comes from the ECHL only when the team is playing out east.
 

Shootmaster_44

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Sep 10, 2005
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If the player is on an AHL deal, they are not Kings property, they are Monarchs property and can sign with any nhl team as long as they clear waivers.

That isn't entirely true. If the player is on a Monarchs deal and still on the Kings 90 (or is it 70) man protected list, he cannot sign with another NHL team. The Kings have done this with a few players who have some development needed, but the Kings don't have room under the 50 contract cap to fit them in.

I understand anyone the Monarchs sign that isn't on the protected list, then yes he can sign with anyone. Andrew Campbell was definitely on a Monarchs contract either last year or the year before until the Kings cleared some contract room, same with Vincent Loverde. Now I am sure the idea when these players are signed to Monarchs deal they are told straight up the deal. If they intend to seek out deals with other NHL clubs, the Kings wouldn't sign them to an AHL deal and "loan" them to a European club or something like that to prevent them from jumping to a different NHL team.

Anyone that has to clear reentry waivers, the Kings don't sign to AHL deals. But there are usually a couple late round draft picks that are signed to Monarchs deals, as essentially a project player. Some of these ride the elevator from the Monarchs to the Reign and back again through out the season.

I have never seen any of these players AHL "traded" during the season since I began to follow the Monarchs closer. The odd veteran ends up being AHL "traded" by the Monarchs, I think it was Alexandre Daigle, but I might be wrong.
 

Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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That isn't entirely true. If the player is on a Monarchs deal and still on the Kings 90 (or is it 70) man protected list, he cannot sign with another NHL team. The Kings have done this with a few players who have some development needed, but the Kings don't have room under the 50 contract cap to fit them in.

I understand anyone the Monarchs sign that isn't on the protected list, then yes he can sign with anyone. Andrew Campbell was definitely on a Monarchs contract either last year or the year before until the Kings cleared some contract room, same with Vincent Loverde. Now I am sure the idea when these players are signed to Monarchs deal they are told straight up the deal. If they intend to seek out deals with other NHL clubs, the Kings wouldn't sign them to an AHL deal and "loan" them to a European club or something like that to prevent them from jumping to a different NHL team.

Anyone that has to clear reentry waivers, the Kings don't sign to AHL deals. But there are usually a couple late round draft picks that are signed to Monarchs deals, as essentially a project player. Some of these ride the elevator from the Monarchs to the Reign and back again through out the season.

I have never seen any of these players AHL "traded" during the season since I began to follow the Monarchs closer. The odd veteran ends up being AHL "traded" by the Monarchs, I think it was Alexandre Daigle, but I might be wrong.

Your wrong. Check the CBA. No such thing as a "protected" list.

If the NHL team has the rights but has not signed the player, then guess what, they need to clear waivers, as I stated. I believe the last team the player payed for has first right to claim them. This is what happened with Chris Chelios when he played for the Wolves.

The CBA states that they have to be signed to a SPC within a certain period of time. If they are signed to an ELC they can be moved from the AHL to the ECHL but they are on a NHL SPC. If they are not on an NHL SPC the Kings have nothing to do with them.

This is different if they are playing in Europe. The player only needs to be offered in order to keep their rights. This does not apply to the AHL.
 

210

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Your wrong. Check the CBA. No such thing as a "protected" list.

If the NHL team has the rights but has not signed the player, then guess what, they need to clear waivers, as I stated. I believe the last team the player payed for has first right to claim them. This is what happened with Chris Chelios when he played for the Wolves.

The CBA states that they have to be signed to a SPC within a certain period of time. If they are signed to an ELC they can be moved from the AHL to the ECHL but they are on a NHL SPC. If they are not on an NHL SPC the Kings have nothing to do with them.

This is different if they are playing in Europe. The player only needs to be offered in order to keep their rights. This does not apply to the AHL.

Where in the CBA is this?
 

Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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You should check the CBA, that doesn't exist anymore...and not only that, reentry waivers was just for players playing in the minors with salaries higher than $105,000 that were being recalled to the NHL.

13.23 In the event a professional or former professional Player plays in a league outside North America after the start of the NHL Regular Season, other than on Loan from his Club, he may thereafter play in the NHL during that Playing Season (including Playoffs) only if he has first either cleared or been obtained via Waivers. For the balance of the Playing Season, any such Player who has been obtained via Waivers may be Traded or Loaned only after again clearing Waivers or through Waiver claim. This section shall not apply to a Player on the Reserve List or Restricted Free Agent List of an NHL Club with whom the Player is signing an NHL SPC or is party to an existing SPC with such NHL Club.

Also, section 13.4 (d) A Player 25 years old or older who plays in one or more Professional Games in the 2013-14 season will be exempt from Regular Waivers as follows:
Season Regular Waivers
13-14 Exempt
14-15 Eligible
 
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210

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13.23 In the event a professional or former professional Player plays in a league outside North America after the start of the NHL Regular Season, other than on Loan from his Club, he may thereafter play in the NHL during that Playing Season (including Playoffs) only if he has first either cleared or been obtained via Waivers. For the balance of the Playing Season, any such Player who has been obtained via Waivers may be Traded or Loaned only after again clearing Waivers or through Waiver claim. This section shall not apply to a Player on the Reserve List or Restricted Free Agent List of an NHL Club with whom the Player is signing an NHL SPC or is party to an existing SPC with such NHL Club.

That's not "reentry waivers", it's just regular waivers. This section also doesn't apply to what you posted earlier and I quoted and placed in bold font.
 
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Tommy Hawk

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May 27, 2006
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That's not "reentry waivers", it's just regular waivers. This section also doesn't apply to what you posted earlier and I quoted and placed in bold font.

You are correct. There is no reentry waivers, just regular but regular waivers still apply

(d) A Player 25 years old or older who plays in one or more Professional Games in the 2013-14 season will be exempt from Regular Waivers as follows:
Season - Regular Waivers
13-14 - Exempt
14-15 - Eligible
 

210

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You are correct. There is no reentry waivers, just regular but regular waivers still apply

(d) A Player 25 years old or older who plays in one or more Professional Games in the 2013-14 season will be exempt from Regular Waivers as follows:
Season - Regular Waivers
13-14 - Exempt
14-15 - Eligible

Those waivers still don't apply to the post of yours I quoted and bolded.
 

adsfan

#164303
May 31, 2008
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The contract would have to be either a two way or a three way deal. Some contracts allows assignment to the ECHL without player approval, some require player approval. I think those on an ELC do not require player approval to be sent to the ECHL.




AHL only deals have nothing to do with the NHL team even if the NHL team owns the AHL team. A player on an AHL deal with say Manchester can sign an NHL deal with the Rangers if he wanted.

Also, you are assuming that the GM for the NHL team is handling the duties for the AHL team. That is not true in all cases. Many times it is the assistant GM performing that task.

Also, if there is a one to one to one set up then I imagine that the AHL GM would work with the ECHL GM and the NHL GM to determine how many players will be on NHL contracts at each level and how many will be on AHL two way (AHL that can be assigned to the ECHL) and ECHL contracts.

Nashville's Assistant GM is Milwaukee's GM. I don't know about other AHL teams.
The Preds don't own Milwaukee's team. A lot of Nashville fans think that Carrie Underwood should be an A GM for Nashville since she recruited Mike Fisher!:yo:
 

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