Besides AHL West, What Cities Could Support a Minor League Team?

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Jacksonville, with proper ownership, would be worth looking at for ECHL. They have the arena and a larger market. Only competition there is college basketball for most of the season.

Richmond would be another one for the ECHL.

Henrico and Chesterfield and Shockoe Bottom, VA have had a hard enough time staying as a viable market even after the Renegades legacy finally collapsed, despite Allan Harvie when he tried to bring them back in the SPHL.

Even the Diamond in Richmond is no longer state of the art, it's why the Braves finally pulled it for Gwinnett, Andre, even since Richmond landed a AA Club, its sports future has been bleak as to where the next stadium is to come from, same for pro hockey, there's no interest even if Norfolk does return there, will Richmond return?

 

[HisIceness]

The Gwinnett Gladiators of the ECHL play 30 minutes away.

I know, but I think the area could support an AHL team. Of course the Gladiators would have to move. Where though, I'm not sure. I'd hate for them to fold.

 

[CBlake]

In the 1999-2000 seasons there were 77 cities with teams playing in the five leagues at the double a level, some were obviously better than others, some quite frankly had no chance for ling term success. You had the ECHL, CHL, WPHL, WCHL and UHL. All had their own geographic foot print with some crossover etc. Now the oldest league and only one still in business the ECHL had the exact same amount of teams then that they have this season, 28. The difference is the ECHL foot print then was much smaller, mostly on the East coast with a few exceptions.

All four other leagues while out of business have roots in the ECHL through mergers, etc. So moving forward does the double level really have any business trying to be a coast to coast thing or would it better off with a few bus leagues comparable to a different time?

 

[Hoodaha]

In the 1999-2000 seasons there were 77 cities with teams playing in the five leagues at the double a level, some were obviously better than others, some quite frankly had no chance for ling term success. You had the ECHL, CHL, WPHL, WCHL and UHL. All had their own geographic foot print with some crossover etc. Now the oldest league and only one still in business the ECHL had the exact same amount of teams then that they have this season, 28. The difference is the ECHL foot print then was much smaller, mostly on the East coast with a few exceptions.

All four other leagues while out of business have roots in the ECHL through mergers, etc. So moving forward does the double level really have any business trying to be a coast to coast thing or would it better off with a few bus leagues comparable to a different time?

The regional footprints within the ECHL are all more or less treated as different leagues. The West coast teams almost exclusively play each other, the former CHL teams do the same. There's some benefit to having less leagues, for the sake of aligning rules, etc.

The truth though is that AA hockey is not a great business model. There are places that do well, but for the most part, there will always be turnover because it's very hard to make money. If the NHL ever became interested in this level, it may have more of a fighting chance, but for now, AA hockey is going to continue to be a bug zapper of teams moving, folding, and going dark.

 

[CBlake]

The regional footprints within the ECHL are all more or less treated as different leagues. The West coast teams almost exclusively play each other, the former CHL teams do the same. There's some benefit to having less leagues, for the sake of aligning rules, etc.

The truth though is that AA hockey is not a great business model. There are places that do well, but for the most part, there will always be turnover because it's very hard to make money. If the NHL ever became interested in this level, it may have more of a fighting chance, but for now, AA hockey is going to continue to be a bug zapper of teams moving, folding, and going dark.

Do you think we will a 30-30-30 model? 1 AHL and 1 ECHL team full integrated into the the NHL development setup. If that were to become the case there would also be a place for good independent league.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Do you think we will a 30-30-30 model? 1 AHL and 1 ECHL team full integrated into the the NHL development setup. If that were to become the case there would also be a place for good independent league.

Yep.

 

[hkymnky]

The regional footprints within the ECHL are all more or less treated as different leagues. The West coast teams almost exclusively play each other, the former CHL teams do the same. There's some benefit to having less leagues, for the sake of aligning rules, etc.

The truth though is that AA hockey is not a great business model. There are places that do well, but for the most part, there will always be turnover because it's very hard to make money. If the NHL ever became interested in this level, it may have more of a fighting chance, but for now, AA hockey is going to continue to be a bug zapper of teams moving, folding, and going dark.

I think we are already beginning to see the NHL take serious notice of the ECHL. Based on the rumors coming out of Stockton and Glens Falls it sounds like Calgary has purchased an ECHL franchise, and that is on top of Edmonton's purchase of Bakersfield over the summer and LA's ownership of the Ontario Reign.

With the absorption of the CHL into the ECHL we are seeing something akin to the AHL's absorption of the IHL back in 2001. For the first time in the history of AA level hockey there's a single consolidated league that is recognized by both a single consolidated AAA league (the AHL) and a single professional league (the NHL). I don't think you can overstate how significant this is.

While AA hockey will likely continue to be a low/no margin business, I suspect we'll continue to see an increase in the calibre of ECHL ownership. Between NHL teams buying ECHL franchises, and former AHL team owners opting for the lower costs of the ECHL, I suspect we will see increased stability and a robust 30-30-30 system in the next few years.

As others have pointed out, this does present some opportunities for both independent leagues and an A-level league to compliment the NHL-AHL-ECHL system. The SPHL is a natural candidate for an A level league as it fills much of that role already, but to be successful it would require a level of scale that the league has yet to display. Then again, as some ECHL owners are ultimately pushed out by incoming NHL and former AHL owners, its possible that the SPHL could see its fortunes improve as well.

 

[CBlake]

I think we are already beginning to see the NHL take serious notice of the ECHL. Based on the rumors coming out of Stockton and Glens Falls it sounds like Calgary has purchased an ECHL franchise, and that is on top of Edmonton's purchase of Bakersfield over the summer and LA's ownership of the Ontario Reign.

With the absorption of the CHL into the ECHL we are seeing something akin to the AHL's absorption of the IHL back in 2001. For the first time in the history of AA level hockey there's a single consolidated league that is recognized by both a single consolidated AAA league (the AHL) and a single professional league (the NHL). I don't think you can overstate how significant this is.

While AA hockey will likely continue to be a low/no margin business, I suspect we'll continue to see an increase in the calibre of ECHL ownership. Between NHL teams buying ECHL franchises, and former AHL team owners opting for the lower costs of the ECHL, I suspect we will see increased stability and a robust 30-30-30 system in the next few years.

As others have pointed out, this does present some opportunities for both independent leagues and an A-level league to compliment the NHL-AHL-ECHL system. The SPHL is a natural candidate for an A level league as it fills much of that role already, but to be successful it would require a level of scale that the league has yet to display. Then again, as some ECHL owners are ultimately pushed out by incoming NHL and former AHL owners, its possible that the SPHL could see its fortunes improve as well.

On following up, after the 31 AHL/IHL teams when there 77 teams in the 1999-00 season spread over five leagues, would all the ECHL, CHL, UHL, WCHL, WPHL been considered so called double A?

 

[MiamiHockey]

On following up, after the 31 AHL/IHL teams when there 77 teams in the 1999-00 season spread over five leagues, would all the ECHL, CHL, UHL, WCHL, WPHL been considered so called double A?

The ECHL has always been a clear cut above the remaining leagues in that list, and it is likely the only of those leagues that NHL teams have even considered developmental over that time. The remaining leagues would be likely categorized as Single A, although you'd be hard-pressed to find an alumni of those leagues (other than the ECHL) who made it to the NHL in any capacity other than enforcer.

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

I think we are already beginning to see the NHL take serious notice of the ECHL. Based on the rumors coming out of Stockton and Glens Falls it sounds like Calgary has purchased an ECHL franchise, and that is on top of Edmonton's purchase of Bakersfield over the summer and LA's ownership of the Ontario Reign.

With the absorption of the CHL into the ECHL we are seeing something akin to the AHL's absorption of the IHL back in 2001. For the first time in the history of AA level hockey there's a single consolidated league that is recognized by both a single consolidated AAA league (the AHL) and a single professional league (the NHL). I don't think you can overstate how significant this is.

While AA hockey will likely continue to be a low/no margin business, I suspect we'll continue to see an increase in the calibre of ECHL ownership. Between NHL teams buying ECHL franchises, and former AHL team owners opting for the lower costs of the ECHL, I suspect we will see increased stability and a robust 30-30-30 system in the next few years.

As others have pointed out, this does present some opportunities for both independent leagues and an A-level league to compliment the NHL-AHL-ECHL system. The SPHL is a natural candidate for an A level league as it fills much of that role already, but to be successful it would require a level of scale that the league has yet to display. Then again, as some ECHL owners are ultimately pushed out by incoming NHL and former AHL owners, its possible that the SPHL could see its fortunes improve as well.

Would there really be any need for an affiliated "Single-A" league in hockey when a player pretty much has to start his pro career in "Triple-A" to have any real shot at the NHL (especially any type of long career)?

This is why I don't like superimposing baseball minor league level nomenclature on the much flatter hockey player development pyramid.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Would there really be any need for an affiliated "Single-A" league in hockey when a player pretty much has to start his pro career in "Triple-A" to have any real shot at the NHL (especially any type of long career)?

This is why I don't like superimposing baseball minor league level nomenclature on the much flatter hockey player development pyramid.

Sometimes its just about these guys playing. Many of them have barely a high school education so what are they going to do besides play hockey?

 

[hkymnky]

Would there really be any need for an affiliated "Single-A" league in hockey when a player pretty much has to start his pro career in "Triple-A" to have any real shot at the NHL (especially any type of long career)?

This is why I don't like superimposing baseball minor league level nomenclature on the much flatter hockey player development pyramid.

Really good point 'chuck.

I agree that hockey and baseball have two very different development systems and adopting the minor league baseball naming convention doesn't accurately reflect how hockey talent is cultivated. But, for better or worse, the powers that be have settled on the idea of using labels like AAA and AA when describing the AHL and ECHL. While I'm always down for new ideas and would love to see minor league hockey develop its own nomenclature (Gold, Silver, and Bronze leagues?), its unlikely to happen and really doesn't contribute to the larger conversation.

So what's the point of having a Single A hockey league?

Simply put, its all about pecking order. We already see this with the AHL and its relationship to the ECHL. The NHL parent calls up AHL talent. The AHL team then turns to their ECHL affiliate for help filling the gaps in their roster. At this point its up to the ECHL team to fill its roster gaps in whatever way it can. In our Single-A scenario the ECHL team would then pull talent from their lower affiliate.

Obviously its highly unlikely that a player at the Single A level would ever make the transition all the way up to the NHL, but given the sheer number of hockey players at the Junior, DIII, and DI levels I suspect a sufficient amount of talent could be found to stock a three tiered minor league system. I wont pretend that I know the hearts and minds of young hockey players, but I suspect there are enough out there who would love to have the opportunity to play a few years professionally even if the pay is low and the prestige is minimal.

 

[hkymnky]

The ECHL has always been a clear cut above the remaining leagues in that list, and it is likely the only of those leagues that NHL teams have even considered developmental over that time. The remaining leagues would be likely categorized as Single A, although you'd be hard-pressed to find an alumni of those leagues (other than the ECHL) who made it to the NHL in any capacity other than enforcer.

I don't know if thats an entirely fair assessment. The fact that the ECHL was willing to accept both the WCHL and CHL into the fold suggests that there was at least some level of parity between the three leagues.

 

[MiamiHockey]

I don't know if thats an entirely fair assessment. The fact that the ECHL was willing to accept both the WCHL and CHL into the fold suggests that there was at least some level of parity between the three leagues.

Can you identify any players from those other leagues that eventually made it to the NHL as regulars?

 

[210]

Can you identify any players from those other leagues that eventually made it to the NHL as regulars?

Andrew Desjardins

 

[hkymnky]

Can you identify any players from those other leagues that eventually made it to the NHL as regulars?

Once again I don't know if thats the best measuring stick for whether or not one league is equivalent to another, especially when we are talking about the ECHL vs. WCHL or CHL. Instead I'd argue that things like market and arena size, average league attendance, player salaries, and affiliations are all better markers of where one league stands in comparison to another.

 

[CBlake]

Yep.

What I find interesting is that with ECHL affiliation is that it seems there is no one model, for instances some NHL teams have two shared affiliations and not just of there own, why is this the case.

For instance the NHL stocks the AHL team, do the also sign all the players for their ECHL team?

 

[Hoodaha]

Once again I don't know if thats the best measuring stick for whether or not one league is equivalent to another, especially when we are talking about the ECHL vs. WCHL or CHL. Instead I'd argue that things like market and arena size, average league attendance, player salaries, and affiliations are all better markers of where one league stands in comparison to another.

Agree. The focus of the WCHL was veterans, not development. When the WCHL joined the ECHL, they dropped several vets per team.

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

Sometimes its just about these guys playing. Many of them have barely a high school education so what are they going to do besides play hockey?

I get that but an independent Single-A league could fulfill that role (unless the NHL teams want a place to get injury/call-up replacements for their ECHL teams, but there will always be a league that has to get their replacements off the street/from an independent league).

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

By the way, for anyone wondering how baseball handles the "bottom league replacement" issue. The answer is twofold, depending on what point of the season it is.

Before the A-Ball all-star games (low Single-A i s the lowest level) - Extended Spring Training

After the A-ball all-star games (a half-season team - usually at one of the Rookie levels - is the lowest team in the organization) - obscenely huge roster size (poorly-enforced* 35-man limit in most cases) in the half-season leagues.

* I think they technically have to put players over the 35-man limit on some kind of reserve list, but that info is often not for public consumption. I track transactions for a website that covers the Indians and get "I don't know" a lot (and very occasionally someone who does know but can't tell anyone) when trying to get info on moves that put half-season rosters above the 35-man limit.

 

[Andre Poodle Lussier]

The regional footprints within the ECHL are all more or less treated as different leagues. The West coast teams almost exclusively play each other, the former CHL teams do the same. There's some benefit to having less leagues, for the sake of aligning rules, etc.

The truth though is that AA hockey is not a great business model. There are places that do well, but for the most part, there will always be turnover because it's very hard to make money. If the NHL ever became interested in this level, it may have more of a fighting chance, but for now, AA hockey is going to continue to be a bug zapper of teams moving, folding, and going dark.

$200,000 annual investment per team (rough math of 10 AHL/NHL contracts per team plus benefits) to increase the expanded roster size from 50 to 60 would go a long way to helping some of these teams out. Operative is some given some teams lose a lot more than $200k a year.

AA hockey (or the ECHL or whatever the hell it should be called...I think the ECHL name really isn't appropriate at this point given the league is hardly East Coast-based anymore) is going to always be a slog without the NHL giving more of a damn about it. Perhaps some day it will.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Do you think we will a 30-30-30 model? 1 AHL and 1 ECHL team full integrated into the the NHL development setup. If that were to become the case there would also be a place for good independent league.

Currently, NHL teams have 50 players under contract. It's hard to add up the numbers for any AA league being part of an organized developmental process. In addition, with NCAA and Canadian JR, I'm trying to see why NHL teams would want to increase that said 50 number.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I don't know if thats an entirely fair assessment. The fact that the ECHL was willing to accept both the WCHL and CHL into the fold suggests that there was at least some level of parity between the three leagues.

The other leagues rolled into the ECHL. It wasn't a matter of caliber of play, it was a matter of cities looking for a league to join with their league failing.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

$200,000 annual investment per team (rough math of 10 AHL/NHL contracts per team plus benefits) to increase the expanded roster size from 50 to 60 would go a long way to helping some of these teams out. Operative is some given some teams lose a lot more than $200k a year.

AA hockey (or the ECHL or whatever the hell it should be called...I think the ECHL name really isn't appropriate at this point given the league is hardly East Coast-based anymore) is going to always be a slog without the NHL giving more of a damn about it. Perhaps some day it will.

I don't see this happening, I don't think the NHL cares about the ECHL at all.

The ECHL is officially know as just that...ECHL. Confusing, I know. They have not used East Coast Hockey League for years, I believe since the WCHL came into the fold.

 

[CBlake]

Currently, NHL teams have 50 players under contract. It's hard to add up the numbers for any AA league being part of an organized developmental process. In addition, with NCAA and Canadian JR, I'm trying to see why NHL teams would want to increase that said 50 number.

Is 50 a mandated organizational limit? So to expand on this how many players playing on a team, say Orlando actually be signed to a two way contract, thus being property of Toronto? Is it the. Does the Maple Leafs brain trust hire the coach and filling out the roster? Do the three levels of coaching staffs discuss the team needs and progress of the three teams?