Besides AHL West, What Cities Could Support a Minor League Team?

[My Cozen Dylan]

I think Baltimore, Louisville, and New Orleans could all support a team. Thoughts?

EDIT: I meant this for both AHL and ECHL.

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[Disengage]

Baltimore is a dead zone for minor league hockey. The Skipjacks never drew well and the Bandits didn't last. It's too close to Landover and if the Caps moved a team there, it would likely just cannibalize their own sales.

Louisville I don't see any real push to bring a team back in.

New Orleans is too far from everyone else to even consider for the AHL.

 

[GindyDraws]

None of them are feasible.

Baltimore's venue is out of date and with the lack of any consistent sporting dates requiring it (the LFL doesn't count), there isn't an incentive to update or replace it. Plus, being close to D.C. also hurts.

Louisville fell apart along with Kentucky in the same year, and the KFC Yum! Center has the University of Louisville controlling the dates.

New Orleans didn't work out in the ECHL, and this was back in the days where Monroe & Beaumont were the frontier.

Um... as for feasible markets, Indianapolis is one, with the Fuel owner having admitted this is his ultimate goal, but given how tricky the process is, he's better off keeping them in the ECHL for now.

I'd love a third Ontario team, but Thunder Bay was nothing more than a scare tactic for the IceCaps.

 

[hkymnky]

Baltimore - could work as a Capitals farm team but only if a new arena gets built. First Mariner is an absolute dump, and thats the only real barn to speak of (and thats being very charitable). There was some talk before the recession of building a new arena with the hopes of attracting NCAA basketball tournaments and other major events. The recession put an end to that talk and as far as I'm aware there's not new arena on the horizon.

Louisville - has had multiple minor league hockey teams over the years with the last team in the market being the AHL Louisville Panthers in 2001. As JDogindy pointed out the University of Louisville effectively owns the market at this point in time and doesn't appear interested in sharing a venue. The only possibility I can see is if the NBA expands to Louisville and that organization decides to own an AHL team similar to San Antonio and Cleveland.

New Orleans - could be interesting, but will only work with the blessing (and most likely support) of the Pelicans. I seem to recall that the Brass were basically forced out of the market when the Hornets (no Pelicans) arrived in 2002. Apparently the Hornets insisted that the Brass cover 100% of the transition costs between the ice and the court, and their old venue no longer had an ice plant.

The more difficult question in all of this is where are the teams going to come from? While it looks like there will be some NHL expansion in the future, thats only two teams, and there are likely to be several markets competing for them. Similarly, with the NHL's interest in the AHL its likely that more teams will be purchased by the NHL going forward. As a result I think the better question may be "where will the NHL want to see more AHL teams?".

 

[hkymnky]

I'd love a third Ontario team, but Thunder Bay was nothing more than a scare tactic for the IceCaps.

I don't know if Thunder Bay was a threat so much as wishful thinking.

The cost of travel to Saint John's (especially in the winter) is very high. I can totally understand Winnipeg's desire to have their AHL team closer. Unfortunately (for Winnipeg) there really aren't many Canadian markets available that don't already have an OHL or WHL team...hence Thunder Bay. But until Thunder Bay shows any signs of actually building an arena I don't think we'll be seeing any team there.

However, if some other Canadian city became available, say Saskatoon or Regina...then I think you could see Winnipeg making a move very quickly. Until then...go IceCaps.

 

[Canadienjet]

I don't know if Thunder Bay was a threat so much as wishful thinking.

The cost of travel to Saint John's (especially in the winter) is very high. I can totally understand Winnipeg's desire to have their AHL team closer. Unfortunately (for Winnipeg) there really aren't many Canadian markets available that don't already have an OHL or WHL team...hence Thunder Bay. But until Thunder Bay shows any signs of actually building an arena I don't think we'll be seeing any team there.

However, if some other Canadian city became available, say Saskatoon or Regina...then I think you could see Winnipeg making a move very quickly. Until then...go IceCaps.

Travel in winter here is not as bad as you think.We rarely ever have games canceled/postponed due to weather.

Don't be surprised if the group here(Williams, Stanford) kicked the Jets to the curb if they are able to find someone.Rumours have the Islanders,Habs and Sens eyeing here but they are just that for now..

 

[hkymnky]

Travel in winter here is not as bad as you think.We rarely ever have games canceled/postponed due to weather.

Don't be surprised if the group here(Williams, Stanford) kicked the Jets to the curb if they are able to find someone.Rumours have the Islanders,Habs and Sens eyeing here but they are just that for now..

My statement on travel to Saint John's had more to do with cost. Even flying from Boston (the cheapest airport I've found to fly to Saint John's) is $450 round trip. Even if you could get a discount thats a lot of money for a team...especially over the course of a season. Flying to Winnipeg looks to cost a $100 more.

Meanwhile, I was under the impression that the Ice Caps franchise belonged to True North...so kicking the Jets to the curb would also mean having to find a whole new franchise.

 

[Canadienjet]

My statement on travel to Saint John's had more to do with cost. Even flying from Boston (the cheapest airport I've found to fly to Saint John's) is $450 round trip. Even if you could get a discount thats a lot of money for a team...especially over the course of a season. Flying to Winnipeg looks to cost a $100 more.

Meanwhile, I was under the impression that the Ice Caps franchise belonged to True North...so kicking the Jets to the curb would also mean having to find a whole new franchise.

It is but there's a group started up here (IceCaps sports and entertainment) that are trying to look for a franchise.There was a rumour going around this summer that they would buy the franchise from TNSE.

In regards to travel,I thought you mean weather.

 

[hkymnky]

It is but there's a group started up here (IceCaps sports and entertainment) that are trying to look for a franchise.There was a rumour going around this summer that they would buy the franchise from TNSE.

I wish them the best of luck. Between the NHL buying and moving teams, and AHL markets looking to replace lost franchises...this has got to be one of the toughest markets for buying an AHL franchise.

 

[Canadienjet]

I wish them the best of luck. Between the NHL buying and moving teams, and AHL markets looking to replace lost franchises...this has got to be one of the toughest markets for buying an AHL franchise.

One of the benefits of the Jets re-upping for another year was it gave the Williams group more time in regards to finding a franchise/affiliation.

Hopefully if the western movement starts next year it will clear the water for some more moves.

The same three teams keep coming up in rumours(Habs,Sens,Isles)or say Quebec City gets an NHL team.

Like most here it's really a "wait and see" mode.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Peoria again, hopefully.

 

[Flyboy34]

Kansas City?

 

[Tommy Hawk]

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of schools are now converting their club hockey teams to school teams so that has to be taken into account. A lot of these cities identify more with college athletics than a professional team especially a pro team that is not in the top league.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Kansas City?

The Missouri Mavericks of the ECHL play about 15 minutes outside KC. So I think that covers them.

 

[PCSPounder]

Since my general interest on this subject is how to fill in the ECHL West...

***

Places that have an arena, the right size of population (or just a bit larger), AND ARE NOT TIED UP BY LEAGUES OF SOME PROMINENCE:

Albuquerque (I know they've been burned before, but with a higher caliber of league operation- different than just higher caliber league- this might turn out better)

Reno (Obviously, someone holds the ECHL market rights, arenas are tied up, yada yada yada)

***

Somewhat smaller populations (from the "if Rapid City can hack it" file), also has an arena:

Prescott AZ (there's a point at which "have arena, will travel" DOES matter, though it's likely Hans is right)

Billings MT (older arena)

***

Markets worth a gander above a cutoff of 300,000, needs arena or substantial investment in a current facility:

Provo-Orem, Utah (actually, the arena at Utah Valley University was built with hockey and other pro sports in mind... what you'd need is a smaller gym for the current UVU basketball teams, and they might want that at this point... and there's also the little matter of the Grizzlies, but if they go AHL?)

Santa Rosa, California (it's far enough north of San Francisco to not have the cost issues, there's wine country money aplenty. Needs arena. Might I suggest Russian River Brewing Company?)

Salem, Oregon (far enough south of Portland, will not be impacted by speculated University of Oregon hockey, and there's a facility on the state fairgrounds that the Winterhawks looked at when they contemplated leaving Portland some years ago... it needs upgrades, but it's not out of the question)

***

Longshots

(In the "force someone else out" category):

Spokane (WHL investigation must kill a franchise first)
Eugene (must kill Phil Knight AND get the city to convert the main county fairgrounds building)
Kennewick/Richland/Pasco (WHL investigation must kill Tri-City Americans)

(In the "if Rapid City can hack it and an arena can be built" category)

Olympia WA
Bremerton WA

(...both are theoretically within driving distance of Seattle and Kent and Everett... at midnight, you fool!)

Yakima WA
Chico CA
Medford OR
Bellingham WA
Redding CA
Pueblo CO
Bend OR
Grand Junction CO
Santa Fe NM
St. George UT
Flagstaff AZ
Idaho Falls ID

***

I excluded markets that are too big. Everett is too close to Seattle, Portland is more likely to get NHL than ECHL, Sacramento's new arena might be targeted for AHL the way San Jose acts, and we just saw what happened to San Francisco.

I also eliminated two-time loser Tucson and seemingly two-time loser Fresno. Even if you semi-secured Tucson, the University of Arizona possesses the power to dump your puny minor league organization into a million holes in the desert (and I wonder about how the highly theoretical Coyotes AHL team would play in Tucson... heck, the Sidewinders didn't last all that long as the Diamondbacks affiliate there). People in Fresno complain about Selland's downtown location and Save Mart Center is obviously tied up by Fresno State.

 

[Artie Fufkin]

There has been talk for some time that Ted Leonsis would like to have a Caps AHL franchise within the region. However, that's only going to happen if 1) there's a new arena; and 2) his company, Monumental Sports, gets the management rights to said building.

Baltimore, Richmond and suburban Montgomery County, MD (Rockville) have all been part of the scuttlebutt, but, at this point, nobody seems interested in putting up the funds to build a place.

 

[CBlake]

What about Texas, where all those WPHL teams were, anything worthing while for another look?

 

[HisIceness]

Atlanta. It would be nice for Charlotte to have a team close by now that it seems Norfolk is losing their team.

 

[hkymnky]

What about Texas, where all those WPHL teams were, anything worthing while for another look?

Unfortunately a lot of the former WPHL markets are smaller cities that were never really great markets and/or have dropped down to the NAHL.

The WPHL was actually owned by Global Spectrum who are in the arena construction/management business. They'd get a city to build an arena or provide them with a management contract, and they'd include a WPHL/CHL team as a tenant. While the league managed to create a large footprint, the majority of its teams only lasted about five seasons.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Based upon current demographics of the northeast teams. any metro are of 150,000 with a rink that eats 4,000 will wor.

 

[My Cozen Dylan]

Atlanta. It would be nice for Charlotte to have a team close by now that it seems Norfolk is losing their team.

The Gwinnett Gladiators of the ECHL play 30 minutes away.

 

[Shootmaster_44]

I would think nearly all Canadian Hockey League cities would support minor pro hockey. I think a good portion of the Quebec based QMJHL teams would be out as the arenas are small. Same issues in Prince Albert and Swift Current in the WHL.

 

[PCSPounder]

Based upon current demographics of the northeast teams. any metro are of 150,000 with a rink that eats 4,000 will wor.

I ran research 10 years ago that demonstrated markets under 300,000 weren't working for the ECHL. It was also a little harder to keep a team (but not impossible) in markets over 500,000. The further south, the larger the market requirement.

I'm curious to see if Rapid City disproves the low side of my theory.

 

[hkymnky]

I ran research 10 years ago that demonstrated markets under 300,000 weren't working for the ECHL. It was also a little harder to keep a team (but not impossible) in markets over 500,000. The further south, the larger the market requirement.

I'm curious to see if Rapid City disproves the low side of my theory.

Very cool...is any of your research posted online?

As for Rapid City, the Rush have the benefit of being the only game in town. Even if you include junior league hockey you're still looking at a four to five hour drive to Bismarck or Sioux Falls. None of the local colleges have hockey teams, or particularly large athletic departments, so the Rush really get to be Rapid City's team.

However, their attendance does seem to be a bit on the decline. Hopefully new and renewed rivalries with Colorado, Idaho, and Utah will help. Another team in the region (like Billings or Casper) would be a huge boost as well, but I don't know if the "Rapid City Formula" can work twice.

 

[Andre Poodle Lussier]

Jacksonville, with proper ownership, would be worth looking at for ECHL. They have the arena and a larger market. Only competition there is college basketball for most of the season.

Richmond would be another one for the ECHL.