Bergevin crashes into Autumn (Part 7): Out of Time Edition

[Tighthead]

Yes, a lot of fans and media fetishize the idea that pro scouting will occasionally find a player at the border between AHL and NHL, abd elevate him to being an average third line forward.

But that doesn't ****ing matter.

If you want to win, focus on developing your first rounders into top six forwards and top four dmen.

Outside of Price and maybe two years of Weber, our best players are always of the ersatz star variety.

Domi is good but he isn't elite. Gallagher is effective and valuable but sort of Marchand-Lite (but way less of a knob). Drouin has skills but will never fulfill his promise even if he becomes more reliable.

Who was our last forward to make an actual Team Canada? Linden?

 

[Tighthead]

Are you seriously claiming that if we had been willing to trade the 3rd overall pick that no teams would've been willing to give up a top end center?

I believe that is what McGuire advocated for in his interview when asked about the ability for a quick turnaround.

Note: not advocating for him as GM, just saying it could have been an option.

 

[Censored Toad]

@Ozmodiar

Here is the appropriate photo to illustrate from the GDT regarding tanking gifs. It would likely get banned in the GDT so I'll post in here as to how to talk about "tanking"

 

[Takeru]

Fleury and Mete? Not good enough I guess? Lets see if they take steps forward in the next 2 seasons. And we don't know yet if Weber is not worth protecting at this point in time

You might be right but we don't know so you should not act like it's fact.

Wasnt aware Fleury would be eligible, well see how he looks by then.
As for Mete, doesnt look like it would be a painful blow, though well probably do so for lack of a better option.

I guess Im just sad that after all this time, we dont have more than 1 top 3D to protect, and the potential replacement have yet to play an nhl game.

After finally coming close to sorting the offense (two of Kk, Suzuki and caufield still need to pan out for that to remain true longterm imo), we ll be looking for who knows how long to get one top 2 stud dman under 30yo ala makar/heiskanen/Chabot/Hughes.

But yeah, future may surprise us, for the better or the worse however

 

[Whitesnake]

Yes he was given all the tools. He had excellent young players, he had some good young prospects too whether you consider our current group better is irrelevant, having Galch-Gallagher-Bo-Tinordi is a solid base of kids, he had some good vets to move out if he wanted, he had nobody above him directing him, he had all the payroll he wanted to hire new staff to the point where the Habs are, I believe, the organization with the most scouts, and he had money to buy out contracts.
There was literally nothing holding him back to build the team he wanted, outside of his stupidity of course.

What you guys are describing are a perfect group...yes, he didn't have a perfect group, but he had all the tools at his disposal to build a team. There is no excuse.

Anyway, even if he had not a whole lot. Even if the main thing was from the get go to build some centermen depth, pretty sure nobody expected him to do that in 2012...or 2013....or even 2014.....But he finally figured it out in 2019....and even today, the centerman Domi he acquired, he acquired a winger. With PK, he acquired a D. With Pacioretty, he acquired a winger and maybe a C. So by his own actions after the supposed terrible depth he acquired, he wasn't able to get centermen with the supposed only good things he had.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Wasnt aware Fleury would be eligible, well see how he looks by then.
As for Mete, doesnt look like it would be a painful blow, though well probably do so for lack of a better option.

I guess Im just sad that after all this time, we dont have more than 1 top 3D to protect, and the potential replacement have yet to play an nhl game.

After finally coming close to sorting the offense (two of Kk, Suzuki and caufield still need to pan out for that to remain true longterm imo), we ll be looking for who knows how long to get one top 2 stud dman under 30yo ala makar/heiskanen/Chabot/Hughes.

But yeah, future may surprise us, for the better or the worse however

That is true... our future can surprise in either direction or more of the same.. middle of the pack.

 

[Deluded Puck]

A lot of fans only want players traded after their value has been used up. They don't realize the paradox.

They don’t believe in you have to give to get.

These fans delude themselves that you can give nothing for everything and get everything for nothing.

LA Kings mini-dynasty earlier in the decade was built on giving to get. A lot of their fans were devastated that Wayne Simmonds was sacrificed to get Jeff Carter for example.

 

[Deluded Puck]

Somebody has to reassure me here....tell me we aren't really interested in Vlasic....please....

Why not? Local, overpaid for his current effectiveness and his best years are behind him... just the way the Habs like it.

 

[Deluded Puck]

He's not worse than Houle... come on man. I know Bergevin's popularity is not high but he's done both good and bad. With Houle, it was all bad. Tell me one good move Houle made?

Houle was only here 5 years. We’re into year 8 of Bergevin and if the Habs fail to make the playoffs again, then Bergevin will have overseen the worst 5 year stretch in the history of the CH.

No hyperbole, it’s out thereby in plain numbers.

 

[Montreal Impact FC]

Why not? Local, overpaid for his current effectiveness and his best years are behind him... just the way the Habs like it.

if Bergy he could he would even extend him on top of his current contract and promise him a coaching job in 2 years. alabSylvain Lefevbre

 

[Edgy]

Doesn't matter... he was not a center cause the point is evaluation on Bergevin and we can use hindsight evaluation. Not a bad pick but not a franchise center

You jumped into my point and made your own point that does not factor in the conversation. If you want to to agree we drafted him as a center? Yes, I agree with that. But he did not result into a franchise center and this is not on Bergevin. Bergevin inherited good pieces to build around but no franchise center which is the most important part.

I keep saying you are missing the point and you are!

How is it not on Bergevin? Not only did he fail to convert the center we picked into a franchise center that he was drafted to be, he also failed to trade for one going on 7 years.

Coaching staff, scouts and trades are ALL his responsibility. If the GM can't GM then he needs to get fired.

 

[LaP]

He's not worse than Houle... come on man. I know Bergevin's popularity is not high but he's done both good and bad. With Houle, it was all bad. Tell me one good move Houle made?

If we fail to make the playoffs both in the AHL and NHL again then MB is worse than Houle there would be absolutely no doubt in my mind.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Houle was only here 5 years. We’re into year 8 of Bergevin and if the Habs fail to make the playoffs again, then Bergevin will have overseen the worst 5 year stretch in the history of the CH.

No hyperbole, it’s out thereby in plain numbers.

OK sure, 5 years vs 8. Still don't change my opinion that Houle has done a better job than Bergevin. Give me one good thing that Houle did? Does the next GM after Bergevin have a mess to deal with like Savard/Gainey had after Houle? I think not!

Bergevin >>> Houle

 

[Deluded Puck]

if Bergy he could he would even extend him on top of his current contract and promise him a coaching job in 2 years. alabSylvain Lefevbre

Don’t make me cry.

Habs and their media lackeys would spin it as a glorious homecoming for Vlasic. Seen this movie enough times these past 25 years

 

[Habs Halifax]

How is it not on Bergevin? Not only did he fail to convert the center we picked into a franchise center that he was drafted to be, he also failed to trade for one going on 7 years.

Coaching staff, scouts and trades are ALL his responsibility. If the GM can't GM then he needs to get fired.

Cause there were no Franchise Center to be picked with our 3rd OA pick in the 2012 draft. Simple as that. It's not Bergevin's fault that Galchenyuk didn't turn into a #1C that we needed badly. It was a good pick but he is a top 6F, not a franchise center. No matter what anybody says, no team was developing Galchenyuk into a #1C.

I repeat... Bergevin inherited Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, and the 3rd OA pick. Prospects like Beaulieu and Tinordi were pumped up too much cause they were the best we had and we had massive drop off after them. Beaulieu and Tinordi were more like Mete and Juulsen in terms of today's prospect value. They were fringe Grade A guys

We were missing the most important piece... FRANCHISE CENTER and our best shot was with the 3rd OA pick. We took a decent stab at it but it failed.

 

[Habs Halifax]

If we fail to make the playoffs both in the AHL and NHL again then MB is worse than Houle there would be absolutely no doubt in my mind.

I don't see it that way. With me, it comes down to what you leave us with. Savard/Gainey took years to recover from Houle's mess. The next GM after Bergevin has a lot to work with.

I'm OK with a change of GM's today. However, I'm not the type to over exaggerate how bad Bergevin is. I can come up with a lot of reasons why I would let Bergevin go today but being worse than Houle is not one of them.

 

[ahmedou]

He's spending most of his time in the gym/shopping centers than at his office.

 

[Edgy]

Cause there were no Franchise Center to be picked with our 3rd OA pick in the 2012 draft. Simple as that. It's not Bergevin's fault that Galchenyuk didn't turn into a #1C that we needed badly. It was a good pick but he is a top 6F, not a franchise center. No matter what anybody says, no team was developing Galchenyuk into a #1C.

I repeat... Bergevin inherited Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, and the 3rd OA pick. Prospects like Beaulieu and Tinordi were pumped up too much cause they were the best we had and we had massive drop off after them. Beaulieu and Tinordi were more like Mete and Juulsen in terms of today's prospect value. They were fringe Grade A guys

We were missing the most important piece... FRANCHISE CENTER and our best shot was with the 3rd OA pick. We took a decent stab at it but it failed.

We never tried to develop Galchenyuk at center, he was drafted as potential 1st line center. Bergevin rushed him into the NHL because he was desperate for a center, proceeded to screw his development, left his coach unchecked as he favored DD and moved Galchenyuk up and down the lineup and over every position and combination imaginable. He then started feuding with him publicly in the press before the season even started, ensuring the drama continues instead of focusing on his development.

He failed to trade for a franchise center, failed to draft a franchise center, failed to develop a franchise center. It is literally his job to make sure he finds one, and there were plenty available over the years. He couldn't make a meaningful trade to save his life, he fell ass backwards into Domi and if they keep doing to Suzuki what they are, it will negate any value from that trade. He kept Lefebvre on aa our AHL team slid into mediocrity, ensuring no talent funnel, center or otherwise, into the NHL.

He took a team that was missing a #1 center and a top 6 winger and gutted it. He hired 2 incompetent coaches, kept them on for way too long. Left them to destroy what little talent we had.

How is any of that not on him?