Bergevin crashes into Autumn (Part 7): Out of Time Edition

[DAChampion]

It is obviously hindsight and speculation, but I always thought AG making the team as a rookie was a mistake all around. Like with KK, my spidey sense tingled that it was in some way about optics.

At the time, I wanted Galchenyuk to finish his season in the OHL.

 

[Tighthead]

IMO we all are saying the same things in different ways, as someone posted above accurately about Galchenyuk the issues is: “let him learn from his mistakes“.

So the question I think which needs to be be asked is why not or who is preventing that ability to learn from mistakes? The most obvious is the coach, but again why is that so? Root cause all comes down to the mandate from ownership IMO - compete for a playoff spot now.

Obviously we are speculating, but I suspect MB has sold GM that rebuilding on the fly is possible, and anything can happen in the playoffs. A full on rebuild (or even a "hard reset" in hockey semantics) is an avowal of failure.

Of course MB has to answer to GM, but I think MB is able to manipulate him. I think GM is a decent owner but a weak President. He grew up a fan, and apparently reveres the alumni. He was a decent hockey player by youth standards, but I think he is a little in awe of the guys who actually played in the NHL.

Note: GM equals Molson not General Manager.

 

[Tighthead]

At the time, I wanted him to finish his season in the OHL.

Some of this is complete hindsight, but I think McCarron, Tinordi and Beaulieu should have stayed NCAA. When they turned pro there should have been uninterrupted AHL seasoning for all of them as needed.

I think MB rushed some guys and to be fair, I think that is a mistake a first time GM is likely to make - you want to show off your shiny new toys and show how clever you are.

Agree on AG.

 

[salbutera]

Obviously we are speculating, but I suspect MB has sold GM that rebuilding on the fly is possible, and anything can happen in the playoffs. A full on rebuild (or even a "hard reset" in hockey semantics) is an avowal of failure.

Of course MB has to answer to GM, but I think MB is able to manipulate him. I think GM is a decent owner but a weak President. He grew up a fan, and apparently reveres the alumni. He was a decent hockey player by youth standards, but I think he is a little in awe of the guys who actually played in the NHL.

Note: GM equals Molson not General Manager.

I keep thinking of Pierre McGuires words, of what he was told during his GM interviews in 2012 by GM and Andlauer. “What is your plan to get this team back in the playoffs the upcoming season“...discussing rebuilding was a non starter per McGuire.

 

[Takeru]

Funny when you realize there’s not a single D worth protecting in the expansion draft, unless we re sign Petry (who will be 33 at the time)

 

[Habs Halifax]

Jesus, I swear sometimes ...

The 3OA pick was mishandled and resulted in a winger, he was drafted as a center and he was seen as a center for the majority of his prospect life.
He.
Was.
A.
Center.

Youre talking in hindsight after the management did everything in their ****ing power to destroy what he was.

The 3rd OA ended up a winger BECAUSE Bergevin is inept at hockey management.

Doesn't matter... he was not a center cause the point is evaluation on Bergevin and we can use hindsight evaluation. Not a bad pick but not a franchise center

You jumped into my point and made your own point that does not factor in the conversation. If you want to to agree we drafted him as a center? Yes, I agree with that. But he did not result into a franchise center and this is not on Bergevin. Bergevin inherited good pieces to build around but no franchise center which is the most important part.

I keep saying you are missing the point and you are!

 

[Mrb1p]

Doesn't matter... he was not a center cause the point is evaluation on Bergevin and we can use hindsight evaluation. Not a bad pick but not a franchise center

You jumped into my point and made your own point that does not factor in the conversation. If you want to to agree we drafted him as a center? Yes, I agree with that. But he did not result into a franchise center and this is not on Bergevin. Bergevin inherited good pieces to build around but no franchise center which is the most important part.

I keep saying you are missing the point and you are!

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

 

[Habs Halifax]

But he was seen as a centerman. By Bergevin himself. How is Bergevin a victim of Bergevin? And he traded Galchy....for Domi? Did he try to trade him for a C? Don't know. End result is that it's him who acquired Domi and for now, it's a very good trade nonetheless. But if your point is that Domi isn't a top C....well you or I didn't trade Galchy for Domi, Bergevin did...so again, Bergevin a victim of Bergevin? 8 top 100 picks from 08-11...yep. But 11 top 100 pick in 2012 and 2013. And again, top 100 pick means so much. Have only 1 pick per draft. All in the 1st round. And even if you miss every 2nd draft, chances are you look better as a team.

Clearly, best goalie don't win cups. But it's a damn good start. It's something you don't have to look for and concentrate elsewhere.

Yep, Bergevin didn't have everything. I wonder though....who does? Which GM won because he had everything before he came in? Why should he have everything?

Yes, we drafted him as a center. That's not the debate. The conversation is inheritance and Bergevin did not inherit a franchise center. We are allowed to use hindsight evaluation in what he inherited.

I do no agree Bergevin inherited all the tools to turn us into a contender. We had solid pieces in Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher and the 3rd OA pick that turned into a top 6F talent instead of a franchise center. Prospect pool as terrible. Add Eller cause he was a good piece too. Vets in Pleky and Markov. That's it! Lets not pretend he inherited a cup contender roster.

I rather have what we have today vs what we had in 2012.

 

[Habs Halifax]

haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

You saying if someone else drafted Galchenyuk, they turn him into a franchise center? Joke is on you bud

 

[Mrb1p]

You saying if someone else drafted Galchenyuk, they turn him into a franchise center? Joke is on you bud

Anywhere from barely being a 2nd line player to being a first line center, yes. Galchenyuk got the absolute worst development he could have.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Anywhere from barely being a 2nd line player to being a first line center, yes. Galchenyuk got the absolute worst development he could have.

Disagree. His hockey IQ is not good enough and he is a winger. You can't develop players into who they are not.

 

[Sorinth]

He was not given all the tools to succeed... center depth was horrible! He had Price, Subban, Patch, 3rd OA pick, and Gallagher as our best prospect. Beaulieu and Tinordi were consider good prospects but they were overrated cause they were the best we had after Gallagher.

3rd OA pick: Who was the best center available in the 2012 draft in hindsight? There are none to brag about in that 1st round! If there was a legit center we missed on, I might change my opinion on "all the tools to work with"

Is the 2012 draft the worse group of centers in history? Not sure but when looking at that entire 1st round, I'm not seeing much top 2 centers.

Here's the thing he had the tools to succeed because he could've traded that 3rd overall pick to get a top center. He didn't have to trade his 35 goal scorer for a pending UFA, he could've tried to say get a young center who was still a project but might turn it around. Also people are ignoring that Plekanec was still a 60 point center, and would've commanded a good return. And after that first season when Eller had put up those crazy numbers, or after the next season when he dominated the playoffs we easily could've traded him for a king's ransom.

If getting a top center was that important he had options which is why people say he had the tools to succeed.

 

[Tighthead]

I keep thinking of Pierre McGuires words, of what he was told during his GM interviews in 2012 by GM and Andlauer. “What is your plan to get this team back in the playoffs the upcoming season“...discussing rebuilding was a non starter per McGuire.

True, and obviously we don't know. But I think the team has prospered since then regardless of on ice success. Obvioulsy playoffs would help the coffers.

Bergevin certainly hasn't demonstrated anything approaching cathedral vision. Every move seems to be a one off. Even if he was told to rebuild it isn't his style. He should be an AGM dealing with the pro side of the job.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Here's the thing he had the tools to succeed because he could've traded that 3rd overall pick to get a top center. He didn't have to trade his 35 goal scorer for a pending UFA, he could've tried to say get a young center who was still a project but might turn it around. Also people are ignoring that Plekanec was still a 60 point center, and would've commanded a good return. And after that first season when Eller had put up those crazy numbers, or after the next season when he dominated the playoffs we easily could've traded him for a king's ransom.

If getting a top center was that important he had options which is why people say he had the tools to succeed.

Teams that have the center we are looking for don't get traded for a winger like Galchenyuk... unless you want to get lesser value type center who would not be a franchise center. We actually ended up getting another winger who can play center better in Domi a few years after. We couldn't even get Drai for Subban. Think about it. You have to draft that franchise center more often than not.

At the end of the day, he had some assets to build around but no franchise center which is the most important part and it's not his fault our pick was solid in Galchenyuk but he did not turn into a franchise center. His biggest error was not trading vets to stay at the bottom for a few years.

He did not have the tools (other than the 3rd OA pick) to get a franchise center. That is a myth and any guy in that GM seat under those circumstances would of struggled to get the franchise center as well.... unless they choose to sell vets and rebuild properly

 

[Tighthead]

Funny when you realize there’s not a single D worth protecting in the expansion draft, unless we re sign Petry (who will be 33 at the time)

Coming off an expansion draft where we protected Benn.

He had to be one of the ten worst players protected.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Funny when you realize there’s not a single D worth protecting in the expansion draft, unless we re sign Petry (who will be 33 at the time)

Fleury and Mete? Not good enough I guess? Lets see if they take steps forward in the next 2 seasons. And we don't know yet if Weber is not worth protecting at this point in time

You might be right but we don't know so you should not act like it's fact.

 

[DAChampion]

Coming off an expansion draft where we protected Benn.

He had to be one of the ten worst players protected.

At the time, Benn had just had a good ~15-game stint, and most of the local media and fanbase had thought that the wise Bergevin had successfully identified a diamond in the rough. This seems to happen a lot.

The same thing happened with Kulak, Deslauriers, Weaver, etc.

 

[Sorinth]

Teams that have the center we are looking for don't get traded for a winger like Galchenyuk... unless you want to get lesser value type center who would not be a franchise center. We actually ended up getting another winger who can play center better in Domi a few years after.

At the end of the day, he had some assets to build around but no franchise center which is the most important part. His biggest error was not trading vets to stay at the bottom for a few years.

Are you seriously claiming that if we had been willing to trade the 3rd overall pick that no teams would've been willing to give up a top end center?

 

[Tighthead]

At the time, Benn had just had a good ~15-game stint, and most of the local media and fanbase had thought that the wise Bergevin had successfully identified a diamond in the rough. This seems to happen a lot.

The same thing happened with Kulak, Deslauriers, Weaver, etc.

Thompson, Weal...

 

[DAChampion]

Thompson, Weal...

Yes, a lot of fans and media fetishize the idea that pro scouting will occasionally find a player at the border between AHL and NHL, abd elevate him to being an average third line forward.

But that doesn't f***ing matter.

If you want to win, focus on developing your first rounders into top six forwards and top four dmen.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Are you seriously claiming that if we had been willing to trade the 3rd overall pick that no teams would've been willing to give up a top end center?

It's all about circumstance.

- Pre draft, we all though we had our franchise center. Why would we trade it?
- Post draft and a few years later, we had a top 6 winger talent. Why would any team trade a franchise center for a winger like Galchenyuk?

We are using hindsight evaluation cause none of us know the careers Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher would have so it applies to the 3rd OA pick the same. It was not a franchise center pick which was our biggest need and the hardest piece to acquire. You can keep pretending we had the tools to get that franchise center but it's false. Our prospect pool was horrible and we had one shot at it with the 2012 3rd OA pick that didn't work. The only way we were getting a franchise center was to sell vets and rebuild properly. That was his error. He didn't inherit what you are trying to pretend we had. That reeks of exaggeration.

I am not defending Bergevin, I'm defending where we were in 2012 and that he is not as bad as Houle. I'm OK if we fire him this season cause I think it's time for a change. Thank you for building up our prospect pool and team youth but it's time for someone else to take the baton now. You ran your leg of the race ok but we won't win with you

 

[habsfan891]

Good point on Eller. He was not developed well or trusted as a future center. We choose DD over Eller and that was a mistake by Bergevin!

Biggest issue is we wanted a top 2C and Eller was more of a Danault type (middle 2C). We threw Eller under the bus for some reason cause of our desperate need for a #1C. Eller went to the Caps and fell in place as a perfect middle 2C for them cause they actually had a legit #1C and options at 2C/3C with Eller in the mix.

Actually the biggest issue was DD's usage when he was far worse than both eller and Galch at c eller could have developed into a 2c with all the ice time that was prioritized for Therrien's pet.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Actually the biggest issue was DD's usage when he was far worse than both eller and Galch at c eller could have developed into a 2c with all the ice time that was prioritized for Therrien's pet.

I thought Eller had his struggles as well but I would of traded DD before Eller. Acquiring Shaw was not a bad idea but the guy could not stay healthy and consistent.

 

[Whitesnake]

I rather have what we have today vs what we had in 2012.

Which is something strange to say as you use hindsight to determine that Bergevin didn't have a whole lot to work with.....but use what we see NOW to state that it's better today. Which means that it's possible that in 5 years, we'll look back saying that finally he also didn't have a lot of things to work with...

 

[Kriss E]

I'm not sure I can agree with the bolded. Subban and Price were a good start but no centermen and out best scorer disappeared in the post season. I'm not sure I can really blame the poor drafting record on him either.

He was not given all the tools to succeed... center depth was horrible! He had Price, Subban, Patch, 3rd OA pick, and Gallagher as our best prospect. Beaulieu and Tinordi were consider good prospects but they were overrated cause they were the best we had after Gallagher.

3rd OA pick: Who was the best center available in the 2012 draft in hindsight? There are none to brag about in that 1st round! If there was a legit center we missed on, I might change my opinion on "all the tools to work with"

Is the 2012 draft the worse group of centers in history? Not sure but when looking at that entire 1st round, I'm not seeing much top 2 centers.

Yes he was given all the tools. He had excellent young players, he had some good young prospects too whether you consider our current group better is irrelevant, having Galch-Gallagher-Bo-Tinordi is a solid base of kids, he had some good vets to move out if he wanted, he had nobody above him directing him, he had all the payroll he wanted to hire new staff to the point where the Habs are, I believe, the organization with the most scouts, and he had money to buy out contracts.
There was literally nothing holding him back to build the team he wanted, outside of his stupidity of course.

What you guys are describing are a perfect group...yes, he didn't have a perfect group, but he had all the tools at his disposal to build a team. There is no excuse.